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#1 2008-04-13 17:54:00

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3222
Website

Interval exercise/Volunteer with Computer Skills?

Is there anyone out there who would be willing to offer their services to help with a shakuhachi practice exercise? You must have the ability to input Kinko notation into the computer and also a reasonable amount of knowledge regarding Kinko notation. In exchange you will receive co-authorship of the exercise. That and $3 will get you a cup of coffee, but you'll also be helping to further shakuhachi practice for the masses.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#2 2008-04-13 22:17:35

ima_hima
Member
From: Brooklyn, NY
Registered: 2005-11-16
Posts: 30

Re: Interval exercise/Volunteer with Computer Skills?

Hey Brian, I might be able to help. I just finished the beta of a new shakuhachi-character font. Jim is test-driving it now, and once the two of us work out the kinks I should be able to put the notation fairly quickly. Also, it would probably be a good test for my system, to see how well it works.

As a side note, this font will be freely available to the world, so everyone will be able to enter notation quickly and easily (one note per keystroke), to your hearts' content. This is a first step in my plans to write actual notation software, but at this point who knows if the second step will ever be taken.

-Eric

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#3 2008-04-14 08:05:13

shashank
Member
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-07-17
Posts: 14

Re: Interval exercise/Volunteer with Computer Skills?

Hi...I could also do it...I am at present learning Kinko Style Shakuhachi from Dan Ryudo Ribble...
It would be nice If I could contribute to this exercise...it will help me in my practice also!!!
I you need my help.....please...I am available

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#4 2008-04-14 09:21:00

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3222
Website

Re: Interval exercise/Volunteer with Computer Skills?

Thanks guys, this exercise is malleable. More than one version would be very welcome if you are up for it. I will post the criteria in the next few days and then everybody can get to work!


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#5 2008-04-14 10:59:46

Bruce Hunter
Member
From: Apple Valley CA
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 258

Re: Interval exercise/Volunteer with Computer Skills?

Brian - count me in, please, this could be interesting.
Eric - Please do let us know when your font is ready.


Develop infallible technique and then lay yourself at the mercy of inspiration. - Anon.

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#6 2008-04-25 18:14:55

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3222
Website

Re: Interval exercise/Volunteer with Computer Skills?

OK I wrote to Ed about this so I'll just cut and paste that for everybody to think about:

BR: Have you read Steve Lacy's book? He devised an interval study by writing down all the usable intervals on a soprano sax, then cut each interval, threw them into a hat, reassembled them and wrote them down. This creates a randomized but comprehensive interval study. The problem with systematic interval practice is that it's predictable, you stop thinking and it's boring. So the task would be to first create every interval (I guess using all pitches from Otsu Ro (or maybe include ro dai meri and ro meri) up to ha (probably would be sufficient). Then do as Lacy did. I would do it but I don't know how to do the "computer music notes" as Kurahashi calls it.

You'd have to put otsu or kan symbols next to every note I suppose to avoid confusion, except maybe in the case of chi meri, u, hi and the other notes that don't have the same names from octave to octave.

EB: You also considering everything descending and ascending?

BR: I don't know. I guess if you wrote each interval as a two note pattern you could always just reverse things. Or do like Messaien, write the whole exercise down once, using only ascending intervals and then write it backwards so the whole thing is a palindrome. Lacy said the most important thing was not to play the exercise continuously but to just focus on an interval and go back and forth between the two notes. So after a while it wouldn't matter which one of the two came first, right?

Lacy specifically mentions in the book that if you play a different instrument (and in this case use different notation) you should create a new interval exercise rather than using his. Anyway our range is smaller than sax.

EB: That could get a bit hairy in places (and perhaps impractical for most 'real music'--but maybe worthwhile anyway, just for the challenge).

BR: I think this exercise is really only good for developing pitch, stamina, embouchure and for those of us who play western music. Of course for traditional music it's irrelevant because they don't use large intervals. But if Lacy did it, I think it's worth checking out. He's the greatest.

So volunteers get to work. Everybody who comes up with a workable version will get a Bombay Sapphire martini next time they see me or Ken.

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc123/Tairaku/SapphireDutyFree.jpg


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#7 2008-04-25 19:22:23

Mujitsu
Administrator/Flutemaker
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-05
Posts: 885
Website

Re: Interval exercise/Volunteer with Computer Skills?

Tairaku wrote:

So volunteers get to work. Everybody who comes up with a workable version will get a Bombay Sapphire martini next time they see me or Ken.

Maybe a bottle! The only catch is that you must share it with either of us!

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#8 2008-04-26 05:22:23

Bruce Hunter
Member
From: Apple Valley CA
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 258

Re: Interval exercise/Volunteer with Computer Skills?

Hmmm, let's see... otsu RO dai meri to HA gives 702 intervals. Wait! Both CHI meri and U are mentioned. How many other "equivalent" pitch fingerings are we going to include? If we include RE-RU-CHI no RE, RE-RU-U no RE, and so on, this quickly becomes encyclopedic. Including just the above mentioned brings it to 992 intervals. A quick look at Taniguchi/Gould Book 1 quickly runs it up to at least 2756 intervals. Some guidance here would be appreciated.

later...


Develop infallible technique and then lay yourself at the mercy of inspiration. - Anon.

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#9 2008-04-26 06:52:15

amokrun
Member
From: Finland
Registered: 2006-08-08
Posts: 413

Re: Interval exercise/Volunteer with Computer Skills?

Bruce Hunter wrote:

Hmmm, let's see... otsu RO dai meri to HA gives 702 intervals. Wait! Both CHI meri and U are mentioned. How many other "equivalent" pitch fingerings are we going to include? If we include RE-RU-CHI no RE, RE-RU-U no RE, and so on, this quickly becomes encyclopedic. Including just the above mentioned brings it to 992 intervals. A quick look at Taniguchi/Gould Book 1 quickly runs it up to at least 2756 intervals. Some guidance here would be appreciated.

If I understood the idea correctly, this would work quite well as a computer program that just generates new patterns on demand. It doesn't matter even if you can make the number of possible patterns to go up to millions. Just ask for a new one whenever you get tired of the old one. Computers don't care how many possible variations there are.

This method would also have the added advantage that you could actually ask for limited range based on your skill. Can't play Kan notes yet? Just ask for patterns in Otsu only and the system will come up with something that you can play. As you get better you can include new notes in the mix.

In fact, if you want to take this further, one way to make a rather interesting practice system would be to have a program that just keeps on generating notes for you while you play them. This would ensure that you aren't going to find yourself getting used to any particular pattern because you could never know what will turn up. For extra challenge, you could have a tempo there so that it generates a new note once a second and the old ones disappear at the same pace. If you can do that, try two notes per second and then four. Or worse, have it change the tempo so that each note also has a random duration. That could potentially get really, really evil.

I feel that something like this could have a lot of potential for shakuhachi (or any other for that matter) practice. There are endless ways to make it better, too. For instance, it could be made to understand some basic honkyoku patterns instead of just notes so that you would get what would amount to somewhat dumb but random honkyoku pieces to play.

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#10 2008-04-26 07:00:41

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3222
Website

Re: Interval exercise/Volunteer with Computer Skills?

Bruce Hunter wrote:

Hmmm, let's see... otsu RO dai meri to HA gives 702 intervals. Wait! Both CHI meri and U are mentioned. How many other "equivalent" pitch fingerings are we going to include? If we include RE-RU-CHI no RE, RE-RU-U no RE, and so on, this quickly becomes encyclopedic. Including just the above mentioned brings it to 992 intervals. A quick look at Taniguchi/Gould Book 1 quickly runs it up to at least 2756 intervals. Some guidance here would be appreciated.

later...

Chi meri and U are the same pitch but in different octaves. As are tsu and tsu. That's semantics.

So you have Ro and every interval between Ro and Ha. That's about 24 intervals, right?

Then you have Tsu meri and every interval up to Ha which would be another 23 intervals.

Each progressive note is one interval less, correct?

So it's not exponential as you describe.

Or maybe I am wrong. Remember I am a dude who barely graduated from high school. There are plenty of other guys and gals here with Ph.D.'s who know how to figure this stuff out. That's why I sent it to the senate.

BR.

P.S. ru is not a note or a pitch. It's a technique.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#11 2008-04-26 10:16:29

ima_hima
Member
From: Brooklyn, NY
Registered: 2005-11-16
Posts: 30

Re: Interval exercise/Volunteer with Computer Skills?

Yeah, I think amokrun is right, and a program that randomizes is going to be the easiest thing. I think I could do this (sort of) quickly. Lemme check in with sensei and see what he's thinking of the font first, though.

-Eric

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#12 2008-04-26 13:54:58

Bruce Hunter
Member
From: Apple Valley CA
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 258

Re: Interval exercise/Volunteer with Computer Skills?

Tairaku wrote:

Chi meri and U are the same pitch but in different octaves. - Same pitch class, not same pitch.

So you have Ro and every interval between Ro and Ha. That's about 24 intervals, right? - yes, ignoring otsu RO meri and dai-meri

Then you have Tsu meri and every interval up to Ha which would be another 23 intervals. Each progressive note is one interval less, correct? - yes
So it's not exponential as you describe. - That's not exponential, but geometric, I think. 8^)

Remember I am a dude who barely graduated from high school. - I be a pea-brained H.S. graduate myowndamnself. 8^)

P.S. ru is not a note or a pitch. It's a technique. - That answers the question. Text could be included to the effect that " Players are encourage to substitute 'Alternate' fingerings, and expand the range", for instance.

later...


Develop infallible technique and then lay yourself at the mercy of inspiration. - Anon.

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#13 2008-04-26 16:50:11

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3222
Website

Re: Interval exercise/Volunteer with Computer Skills?

Hey Bruce,

This is interesting because it shows how much the brain reacts to something basic like what kind of notation we use. I am not very well trained in Western notation, I'm more familiar with Japanese. So I naturally thought of an interval study in terms of fingerings. But you could also look at it just from an intervallic point of view.

First write out on the computer every minor second. For example ro to tsu meri, tsu meri to tsu chu meri, tsu chu meri to tsu and so on.

Then every second. Then every minor third.

As the intervals increase in distance there will be less of them because you bump into the upper limits of the pitch range, which I guess we could set at ha. Of course we could include the dai kan notes if we wanted to but let's say ha.

Cut them up and randomize them. Reassemble.

I think that would give us the exercise we're looking for?

If we just fed notes into the computer and have it generate random intervals wouldn't we be at risk of repetition or omission?


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#14 2008-04-26 22:00:57

Bruce Hunter
Member
From: Apple Valley CA
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 258

Re: Interval exercise/Volunteer with Computer Skills?

Tairaku,
Right!, and Right On! So, if we make an exercise, rather than just a list of intervals, (600), we only need 300, because, for instance, RO-TSU would include TSU-RO. (When I do interval vector analysis, I consider a rise of, let's say, 4 half-steps distinct from a fall of 4 half-steps, because of the different harmonic  consequences and also different emotional responses.)
Without intelligent design, yes, duplications and/or omissions are likely to occur, which is how I know there are exactly 300 exercises. (I did the work this afternoon). Another wrinkle occurred when I decided that there should be no interval or pitch repetition in sequential exercises. (Pitch class repetition must be allowed, however, or we won't get to practice octaves.)

later...


Develop infallible technique and then lay yourself at the mercy of inspiration. - Anon.

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#15 2008-04-26 22:14:48

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3222
Website

Re: Interval exercise/Volunteer with Computer Skills?

Sounds like you've got a handle on it Bruce.

The only sticking point might be that i and hi go are the same pitch but different fingering as ro and ha. I would just use ro kan and ha for those.

And then doing them backwards will give you the other relationships.

Then there's the vexed issue of whether we want to play Japanese meri pitches or Western half steps but the player can decide that for himself. This is more like a Western exercise so I'd play Western pitches.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#16 2008-04-27 00:19:23

amokrun
Member
From: Finland
Registered: 2006-08-08
Posts: 413

Re: Interval exercise/Volunteer with Computer Skills?

Tairaku wrote:

The only sticking point might be that i and hi go are the same pitch but different fingering as ro and ha. I would just use ro kan and ha for those.

Then there's the vexed issue of whether we want to play Japanese meri pitches or Western half steps but the player can decide that for himself. This is more like a Western exercise so I'd play Western pitches.

I suppose there is no reason as to why all the weird variations shouldn't be allowed if the player so chooses. Imagine, for example, that you could change all the notes to their Dai Meri equivalents so that instead of playing Ro you'd be asked to meri Tsu enough to get to Ro pitch. This would be pretty much the same thing except that it's way up there as far as difficulty goes. For some added difficulty you could also make it so that the first or second note of each pair is really deep meri while the other is normal kari note. That would force the player to go between the two extremes for each pair.

There are all sorts of interesting possibilities for this sort of thing. I'd like to see them all done in on package so that all the work that goes into getting it right the first time can be re-used. No point in starting over whenever someone gets a new idea that sounds useful.

I'll wrap something together hopefully during the next week. I'm a bit stuck with work as I've been working overtime for the last week and a half or so. I might actually get something done once I get to stop by at home.

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#17 2008-04-28 04:39:24

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3222
Website

Re: Interval exercise/Volunteer with Computer Skills?

I've been corresponding with a few forum members about this project and there seems to be some confusion. Maybe I have not explained it correctly. So I'll try to break it down to the most essential elements.

1. Each interval is two notes. We'll go with ascending only.

2. For sake of ease we'll go from Ro to Ha (i.e. two octaves)

3. So you write ro-tsu meri. then Ro-tsu chu meri, then Ro-tsu, then Ro-re meri etc. until you reach Ro-ha

4. You'll have to indicate octave (otsu or kan) in the case of notes that have the same name between octaves.

5. Then you do the same with every interval from Tsu meri to ha

6. Every interval from Tsu chu meri to ha

7. Note that each time you move up a half step there will be one less interval.

8. By the time you go through both octaves you will have notated every possible interval.

9. NOW cut up the intervals (both notes) and put them in a hat. Or the computer equivalent.

10. Reassemble them RANDOMLY. Or the computer equivalent.

11. Number each interval so we know where one ends and the other begins.

12. Prepare to drink Bombay Sapphire martinis. One is not enough, two is too many, three is perfect.

Thanks to those valiant individuals who are trying to grapple with this exercise. I'm sure Steve Lacy is looking down on us with a full martini glass...................and laughing! wink


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#18 2008-04-28 10:12:26

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Interval exercise/Volunteer with Computer Skills?

Tairaku wrote:

9. NOW cut up the intervals (both notes) and put them in a hat. Or the computer equivalent.

10. Reassemble them RANDOMLY. Or the computer equivalent.

Nicely done, Tairaku.

One thing you (or the 'assembler') might add: Group the intervals so they form clusters of four or six notes; might make the exercise more interesting to play instead of just one long string of intervals. This process can be repeated ad infinitum...

[Who knows: If a million of us does this a million times we might come up with Carmina Burana...]

eB


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#19 2008-04-28 16:45:26

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3222
Website

Re: Interval exercise/Volunteer with Computer Skills?

edosan wrote:

One thing you (or the 'assembler') might add: Group the intervals so they form clusters of four or six notes; might make the exercise more interesting to play instead of just one long string of intervals.

As my wife says, "You are trying to confuse me."

Anyway Lacy says that although the exercise is written as one long string of intervals you really should only concentrate on one at a time instead of running through it continuously.

This (6 notes) is a good idea but we can do that in a different exercise. Josef Matthias Hauer originated a form of 12-tone composition which predates Schönberg. The building blocks of his compositions are groups of six notes called "Tropes" of which there are 44. Maybe "someone" can transcribe those from Western into Kinko. Although they are pretty easy to read in Western, even a musical illiterate like me can handle it. cool Of course reading and comprehension are two different things. sad

So we'll do that as a separate exercise.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#20 2008-04-28 20:59:26

PSTL
Member
From: Jacksonville, FL USA
Registered: 2006-08-02
Posts: 67

Re: Interval exercise/Volunteer with Computer Skills?

What an excellent project. Thank you for taking it on. I'm curious as to whether or not there are plans to have audio accompany the exercise. It would be helpful to hear how the notes should sound on a 1.8, 2.1, 2.4 etc.. Also, it might be helpful to practice along with the audio or at least have the option. What do you think?
Thank you, again.

Phil

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#21 2008-04-30 05:06:13

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3222
Website

Re: Interval exercise/Volunteer with Computer Skills?

Bruce, my email is not working so hopefully you'll read this.

Hard working dude!

I don't think you need the descending intervals. Because Lacy intended us to focus on one interval at a time rather than as a continuous thing, it doesn't matter.

If you agree I suppose that means you're done!


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#22 2008-04-30 10:37:50

Bruce Hunter
Member
From: Apple Valley CA
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 258

Re: Interval exercise/Volunteer with Computer Skills?

Brian, Your email came through ok.

I'll play through the thing and ponder as to how it feels.

Wetware tells me it feels incomplete.

later...


Develop infallible technique and then lay yourself at the mercy of inspiration. - Anon.

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#23 2008-04-30 11:29:11

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Interval exercise/Volunteer with Computer Skills?

Bruce Hunter wrote:

Not sure it's supposed to feel 'complete', but to be 'unexpected'...

eB


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#24 2008-05-02 04:11:50

Bruce Hunter
Member
From: Apple Valley CA
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 258

Re: Interval exercise/Volunteer with Computer Skills?

Shakuhachi Interval Practice is at...

http://www.4shared.com/dir/5119010/dc0a … aring.html

in the NOTA (None Of The Above) folder.

This was a fun project! I wonder what the next one will be?

later...


Develop infallible technique and then lay yourself at the mercy of inspiration. - Anon.

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#25 2008-05-02 10:10:41

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Interval exercise/Volunteer with Computer Skills?

Now THOSE are unexpected intervals!  smile


Thanks, Bruce!

Last edited by edosan (2008-05-02 10:10:59)


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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