Mujitsu and Tairaku's Shakuhachi BBQ

A good player might sound good on a plastic shakuhachi or plastic alto as you mentioned but he/she can also tell what he's playing while he's playing it. Beyond telling the difference between plastic and bamboo a good player can differentiate between types and vintages of bamboo. The "empty space" theory doesn't hold up, especially once you get into jinashi because there's no way to duplicate that with any other material. "Empty space" theoreticians tell you that if a hunk of aluminum or plastic imitated the interior dimensions of a jinashi flute it would sound and feel the same. That's like when they call gluten "mock duck" or "soy meat". It's not duck and it's not meat. All you have to do is eat it to tell the difference. If Michael Gould sounds good on a plastic flute that's because he's a great player. But when he plays the flute he's not conning himself into thinking it's bamboo.

radi0gnome wrote:

Tairaku wrote:

The "empty space" theory doesn't hold up, especially once you get into jinashi because there's no way to duplicate that with any other material.

What do you think of plastic utaguchi's? I guess it's duplicating the water buffalo horn material, but it still seems suspect to me.

Tairaku wrote:

"Empty space" theoreticians tell you that if a hunk of aluminum or plastic imitated the interior dimensions of a jinashi flute it would sound and feel the same.

With silver concert flute the argument gets even more difficult. There the empty space is pretty darn easy to duplicate with cheap nickle silver. I wonder if the great players of those can tell the difference like you say is most likely with the plastic shakuhachi and saxes. If so, it supports the theory that plastic utaguchi's aren't a good idea.

I like flutes with no utaguchi inlay, it is unnecessary. But I have enjoyed playing ivory, water buffalo and synthetic utaguchi inlays. I can't tell the difference sonically. My preference is ivory.

I have played cornetti of both wood and composite material which were the original and the exact reproduction and you can tell the difference in sound. Material does matter.

I do think some of the plastic shakuhachi type instruments have their place and are superior musically to a lot of bad bamboo shakuhachi. But nothing is as good as a fine bamboo shakuhachi.

Thanks baian for the link. They don't mention what kind of flute they made. Probably not a shakuhahachi. And they don't (and can't) describe the difference in playing a concrete flute versus a wood flute, just the way it sounds to the people who are not playing it.

I would be interested in something more concrete (pun intended) like for example measuring the body functions of someone playing a plastic shakuhachi for 2 hours and then doing the same for someone playing a fine jinashi shakuhachi. That would be illuminating.

People have been spending thousands of man hours over the course of several centuries trying to duplicate the Stradivarius violin. But the pros still prefer the real thing. It can't all be hype.

Tairaku wrote:

People have been spending thousands of man hours over the course of several centuries trying to duplicate the Stradivarius violin. But the pros still prefer the real thing. It can't all be hype.

A violin is an chordophone which means the sound comes from the vibrating strings and sound board. Material makes a big difference in chordophones.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chordophone

A shakuhachi is an aerophone which means the sound comes from vibrating air in an enclosed space. So the sound is based on the shape of the air.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerophone

You’ve confused two entirely different physical/musical systems.

Tairaku wrote:

I would be interested in something more concrete (pun intended) like for example measuring the body functions of someone playing a plastic shakuhachi for 2 hours and then doing the same for someone playing a fine jinashi shakuhachi. That would be illuminating.

Again you’re confusing systems. Acousticians are referring to auditory perception and you’re talking about tactile stimuli (thermal conductivity, density, weight, hardness and so on).

Yes, different materials FEEL different, the question is whether they produce different SOUNDS in aerophones. Selecting just for tactile qualities, I’m not sure bamboo rates very high as I’m not aware of a circumstance where it was chosen over other tactile materials.

However, I do like your Coltrane quote and his attention to intention.


Nick

Tairaku wrote:

I would really like to play a synthetic shakuhachi that's as nice as a bamboo one, problem is you can't play a theory.

If you’d pay the same amount for a good synthetic as you do for a good bamboo, I suspect you’d have plenty to choose from. At current prices of around $100 nobody puts too much effort into synthetics.

Tairaku wrote:

Okuda Atsuya can accurately tell you whether a shakuhachi is totally jinashi or if it has a spot of ji (I am not talking about totally jiari, just a dab) by playing it.

Lacking a fair double-blind experiment you should probably capture him and rent him out as a psychic.

Tairaku wrote:

Sometimes I wonder why there are so many shakuhachi players intent on denying one of its defining factors, that of bamboo.

Nice bamboo flutes are pretty nifty, no doubt about it. But the shakuhachi is spreading westward and worldwide and with that spread will come difference in taste, preference, and understanding. The non-Japanese player who will take the shakuhachi to the next level has yet to appear. But when he/she does things will move fast.


Nick

I'm thinking that one might want to look past the scientific and consider the spiritual connection associated with this topic.
An artist poors his or her soul into the art. The art, in this case, has an energetic history all it's own, and it's associated with the bamboo (another life force). It's like, you listen to some performers and they can deliver a flawless performance but lack soul. The music doesn't move you. We've all heard it! It's your basic elevator music. You take the same tune performed by someone who's soul is attached to the art and it's magic. It's all about energy! The shakuhachi has many years of energy surrounding it and it's accessible energy.

Personally, I find the bamboo to resonate and comfort me quite differently than the Yuu and Maple shakuhachi's that I own. There is a difference, for me.

It's also quite possible that we all are drawn to the shakuhachi as a result of a past life experience with the instrument. When I first heard the shakuhachi at age 49, it was like I had discovered a memory. Hmmm!

Peace.

Physics is simply a rationalizing, quantifying science which attempts to explain all things in it's own limited terms. Anything it can't prove or disprove is either thrown out as subjective or attributed to human error. Bamboo and many other organic materials have a feeling of just being 'alive'. Just because you can't explain it in mathematical terms doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Don't get me wrong, physics has been very helpful in figuring out some mysteries of many instruments over the years...but I feel the majority of opinions on this subject regarding the progression and improvement of the shakuchachi through science is nothing more than western arrogance.

Josh wrote:

What do you mean they have yet to appear?

Check the top twenty at iTunes. Check Walmart for Shakuhachi music. For that matter, see if Walmart is selling shakuhachi. Make up your own test for degrees of cultural awareness.

Josh wrote:

By using the word next you are implying that there is something wrong or unsatisfactory with the current or the past levels.

By using the word 'next' I'm implying impermanence.

Josh wrote:

I agree with Tairaku, can't we just all get along, with the bamboo:)

I don't know if we could, but we won't.  Clinging is unattractive to Buddhists.

Nick

"Check Walmart for Shakuhachi music. For that matter, see if Walmart is selling shakuhachi."


sheesh, i almost lost a cup of really good gyokuro to my laptop screen after reading that line. LOL

"one world/one mall" is not exactly my standard for seeing if any of us non japanese shakuhachi players have credibility

phil (i really should trademark the one world/one mall term!)

nSkky wrote:

Nice bamboo flutes are pretty nifty, no doubt about it. But the shakuhachi is spreading westward and worldwide and with that spread will come difference in taste, preference, and understanding. The non-Japanese player who will take the shakuhachi to the next level has yet to appear. But when he/she does things will move fast.Nick

Truly a bizarre statement. Have you ever heard of John Neptune? He took the shakuhachi to the "next" level 30 years ago and he's still a voice in the wilderness for several reasons. One of them is that things don't "move fast" in the shakuhachi world. I disagree with the term "next" which is why I used quotations there. Music and art are not linear. They move in all directions. For example Picasso and others invented modern art by studying some of the most ancient art on the planet. In the shakuhachi world Watazumi is the most radical musician (although he disavowed that term) at the same time that he used some of the simplest and most retro flutes around. In fact much of the most interesting thinking in the shakuhachi world today involves jinashi flutes, which would appear to be atavistic but simultaneously are on the cutting edge.

There are plenty of Western shakuhachi players who are doing things nobody in Japan has thought of doing, or doing it in a different way. To suggest otherwise is condescending at best or ignorant at worst. There are political reasons for the slow progress of Western shakuhachi. For one thing there is a degree of racism (in Japan) and reverse racism (in the West) which cast the accomplishments of Western players in doubt. One of the best Western shakuhachi players told me that he has lost gigs to inferior Japanese players (in the West) because the promoter wanted someone who "looked authentic". This has nothing to do with whether or not a Western player is going to come along and revolutionize things by playing synthetic flutes. It's totally out of our control.

Tairaku wrote:

Truly a bizarre statement. Have you ever heard of John Neptune?

Yes-- you, me and 12 other people. You keep talking about ‘the shakuhachi world’. I’m talking about the person who will produce something that will have legs enough to make it outside ‘the shakuhachi world’ box--the person who will have the first million seller shakuhachi sound.

Tairaku wrote:

One of them is that things don't "move fast" in the shakuhachi world.

Yep, most artists don’t figure out, until too late in their career, that things move slowly in whatever box they’re in. They never figure out that the first (and perhaps only) step is to get out of the box.  Play to the box, stay in the box.

Tairaku wrote:

It's totally out of our control.

Originality usually is.


Nick

nSkky wrote:

Tairaku wrote:

Truly a bizarre statement. Have you ever heard of John Neptune?

Yes-- you, me and 12 other people. You keep talking about ‘the shakuhachi world’. I’m talking about the person who will produce something that will have legs enough to make it outside ‘the shakuhachi world’ box--the person who will have the first million seller shakuhachi sound.

Tairaku wrote:

One of them is that things don't "move fast" in the shakuhachi world.

Yep, most artists don’t figure out, until too late in their career, that things move slowly in whatever box they’re in. They never figure out that the first (and perhaps only) step is to get out of the box.  Play to the box, stay in the box.

Tairaku wrote:

It's totally out of our control.

Originality usually is.


Nick

Well as probably the only person on this forum who has sold millions of records, I can tell you that there's a lot more to music than that. That's why I started with shakuhachi, to get back in touch with the deeper aspects of music.

I've got a question, have you ever listened to the music of any of the people on this forum who have issued CD's? Because a lot of them are original and out of the box. You don't seem to know that. You're ascribing conservative values to people who are not.

philipgelb wrote:

You seem to be confusing commercial success with artistic achievement.

I don't know why this is so hard. I'm saying that things only change when they change. You only know the names John Coltrane, Steve Lacy, Evan Parker, and Lol Coxhill because these people changed something.

Right now you couldn't give away shakuhachi CDs outside of what Brian calls 'the shakuhachi world'. Do you imagine that market is larger than about 5K? In Time, some non-Japanese will step out of the Shakuhachi Box to a larger world, a larger market, a larger audience--let's say 100K. Then we can all stone them and call them unartistic sellouts.

Here's the deal Phil, you sell CDs, in your mind who do you want to hear your CD and be blown away, John Neptune or a mall rat in Omaha? Your personal answer to this question will probably set the bounds of your sales. So what I'm saying is even before the CD was recorded, the Box you hoped to impress and gain credibility within set the bounds of your sales.

If you're happy with your sales then why worry if somebody sells a bizillion copies?


Nick