Mujitsu and Tairaku's Shakuhachi BBQ

nSkky wrote: "Selecting just for tactile qualities, I’m not sure bamboo rates very high as I’m not aware of a circumstance where it was chosen over other tactile materials."

I'm not sure if you're referring to bamboo simply as a material for musical instruments -- where it has been used for chime-idiophones, other percussion instruments and flutes in a number of different cultures --  or as a material with other uses but bamboo has and is still being used for a great number of things which could be considered tactile in every sense of the word.  It is an incredibly versatile material, and one investigation of the uses of bamboo, by Hans Sporry (1903), lists 1048 uses, and that's just in Japan.  Acupuncture needles were originally made from bamboo; arrow shafts, baskets, blowguns, brushes (holding the fur of a great variety of animals), bridges -- bamboo provided the fiber for the first suspension bridges, candlesticks, carrying poles, fences - virtually endless in their extent and variation, and including some of the most impenetrable known to man; used in WWII and to keep out tigers and other predators; eggcups, fans, framing for houses, gutters, junks, kites, ladles, phonography needles, racks, rafts, roofs, sandles, scaffolding for skyscrapers, stilts, shelters, tea whisks, trays etc.  Thomas Edison encountered difficulties in finding the appropriate material for a filament for his incandescent lamps and eventually ended up choosing a bamboo from the Kyoto area  for use in the world's first light bulb. "Medicines for asthma, hair and skin salves, eyewashes, potions for lovers and poisons for rivals have all been extracted from different portions of the plant; and the even the ashes of bamboo are used - to polish jewels and manufacture electrical batteries" (David Farrelly, The Book of Bamboo). And you can eat it, though I suppose if you want to strictly delineate tactile as "of, pertaining to, endowed with, or affecting the sense of touch" (Random House Dictionary) you might have to put that in the taste category.  Anyway, bamboo seems to be a rather tactile material which has been chosen again and again throughout human history and not just for shakuhachi, though perhaps in our plastic based modern culture this great resource has been underutilized.  Bamboo has immense potential.

Last edited by Daniel Ryudo (2007-02-02 01:36:27)

nSkky wrote:

Tairaku wrote:

I've got a question, have you ever listened to the music of any of the people on this forum who have issued CD's? Because a lot of them are original and out of the box. You don't seem to know that. You're ascribing conservative values to people who are not.

I'd have to count, but half a dozen or so. The part I don't get is why the idea that in time somebody's going to break out is so threatening? What do you care? Hasn't happened yet, but it will.

And how does merely observing that it hasn't happend yet get twisted into ascribing values?


Nick

It has happened. I've played shakuhachi on CD's that sold hundreds of thousands of copies. Big deal. That doesn't make me feel like a better player than anyone else. I don't know what Riley's sales are but I would imagine he's sold a lot as well. He has shattered a lot of boundaries for the shakuhachi. What's your point? You obviously don't even know who you're talking to.

The people you are trying to antagonize in this thread are using their real names and have websites so that you can check what they're doing. Why don't you tell us who you are and let us listen to some of your music so we can understand where you're coming from? Until then proceed with more respect.

nSkky wrote:

Dude, what about this is so provoking? I don’t sell my music and if I did it wouldn’t go far. The shakuhachi is far from being a mainstream instrument in the West and for some that’s its charm. Why does acknowledging such set off such wrath?


Nick

What's so provoking? It could be your suggestion that the instrument is going to break out to new levels. I think the idea that someone is going to come up with some sound that no one else can imagine is kind of provoking, maybe a bit unrealistic too, however the interdental style of playing ney I understand is relatively recent and must have been a drastic change like you're talking about for that instrument.  The attraction of shakuhachi for me is not that it's a foriegn instrument, but that it sort of tells you where it wants to go tonally, making solo improvistion really fun because you don't know where it's going to take you. I've got to try a plastic one sometime to see if it's does that.

Anybody check out youtube lately? A few weeks ago a search on shakuhachi got me nothing. This time it got me lots of stuff including a steel and copper shakuhachi. Those weren't very impressive but I really liked these two:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83azOSBUeqc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSrpS-Z91-8

That last guy plays ney very well too!

Tairaku wrote:

Until then proceed with more respect.

Brian,

You’ve dropped more than enough hints that you feel you’re a pretty important guy. Frankly, before this forum I’d never heard of you, which you can chalk up however you wish. I knew of Ken but not you. I’m given to understand that you’ve enjoyed some success in a rock and roll band and currently are establishing a shakuhachi career. Also, I’ve noticed that some forum members tend to flinch and cower when you come around, that there’s a fear vib not too far under the surface. Adding all this up, I think it’s time I go feed the horses.

Nick

Perhaps the reason that shakuhachi recordings don't sell millions of records is because the shakuhachi is, for the most part not able to get through to a lot of people because they just don't get it, or are perhaps too ignorant to try. Though it can and has been taken in many directions as mentioned,  it is still based on tradition and the traditional music is what attracts many shakuhachi players. The "Next Level" as Tairaku mentioned was Watazumi and he didn't sell millions of records, what he did was inspire more people to pick up the shakuhachi and find their own voice.

-Sean

nSkky wrote:

You’ve dropped more than enough hints that you feel you’re a pretty important guy.

You have an odd way of interpreting the contents of this forum.

Tairaku is treated with respect here not because he is 'a pretty important guy' (which is a questionable assumption at best), but
because he has earned it, by being a reasonable, interesting and well-informed contributor.

I'm sure you have something interesting, innovative and world-changing to do...

...elsewhere.

Please get to it (after you've mucked out your horses, of course).

eB

nSkky wrote:

Tairaku wrote:

Until then proceed with more respect.

Brian,

You’ve dropped more than enough hints that you feel you’re a pretty important guy. Frankly, before this forum I’d never heard of you, which you can chalk up however you wish. I knew of Ken but not you. I’m given to understand that you’ve enjoyed some success in a rock and roll band and currently are establishing a shakuhachi career. Also, I’ve noticed that some forum members tend to flinch and cower when you come around, that there’s a fear vib not too far under the surface. Adding all this up, I think it’s time I go feed the horses.

Nick

I hope it's not my fear you're smelling there, because it is there and I guess I can't really hide it. I got into a little argument with him (but not much of one) when I joined the forum recently. Then I realized he was Brian Ritchie with the Violent Femmes. I already knew he was the administrator of this forum, that's kind of important already, but I didn't really know who the VF were except for "didn't the press make a big deal of it when they played at that place that often has a mosh pit?" Well, I finally found some recordings to listen to, and it was super hip. They even did a gig at the North Pole to add to their credentials. I mean, I'm not worthy to be in the presence of this guy. Yes, I'm exagerating about not being worthy, but you get the point, right?. I'm also aware of some other members accomplishments like Perry Yung and Geni. These guys are real pros. There are other professionals on the board too that I think I'd find with a little research that their opinions a gift from heaven, even if I don't always agree.

As far as my argument with Brian about circular breathing on shakuhachi, sorry Brian, it can be done, particularly if a non-pro like me can handle it. True, the pitch drops most of the time during the breath so it might diminish the usefulness for what you do, but that could be because I haven't perfected it. Hearing Brian say to you, Nick, and I'm paraphrasing here, "well show me what you're talking about", and seeing the stuff on Youtube is leading me to think that all I've got to do is get a video camera. It might be the first time Rent-a-Center rented one for material that's OK to publically air. Is there anyone in the Albany NY area here who isn't as media-constrained as I am and would like to donate some time? Who knows, maybe I could be the big breakthrough in shakuhachi playing you're talking about, Nick. I doubt it, but at least then you wouldn't have to wait so long to be right if it turns out that you are

nSkky... I am in every way a shakuhachi purist, I don't think it should have a place in jazz or any other type of music except for where it has been for quite some time now. But that's me. I've been reading this discourse for quite awhile now and am bored. Turning the musical world upside down is only going to happen when it happens naturally.l used to work at a club in Chicago called South End Musicworkes as the sound engineer, our club held concerts of the people you mentioned in an earlier post, Evan Parker Lol Koxhil etc. only free jazz (80%). All normal people. Ive picked up Evan at the airport, went to China town( and drank beer.. lots of beer) with Peter Brotzman, and believe me those people didn't go out of there way to turn any thing upside down, it was a natural progression for them. I also was/am a student of Brian Ritchie's ( before Australia) and never found him to be elitist , or too self important.I learned quite alot, and wouldn't be studying the music I am today if not for him..(my 2 cents) Let's face it, it was Ken and Brian who started this forum and gave you the opportunity to yipyap. When some one does something long enough and with a level of success, one should be at least listened too, if not respected. The world will turn upside down when its ready.
Good going Edosan

Last edited by jeff jones (2007-02-03 02:21:47)

nSkyy, I wonder what you think this "thing" is that's gonna change the musical world with Shakuhachi.
Someone's gonna do something with it no one's thought of before? I seriously doubt it, considering how many thousands of people have played it over hundreds of years. Hell, even slapping some electronics on it doesn't make the flute sound different, it changes the sound AFTER the flute produces it. When you start messing with the way it's made, be it a different material, or, more importantly, changing the holes around, it's a different instrument.

Do you honestly believe that someday, somebody will do "something" with it no one's thought of? Something that will make Conservatives in Kansas stand up and say, "hey, it's shakuhachi! that's our favorite new instrument! Forget the guitar, man, this is the shnit! I just LOVE its crazy, ear-ringing tones!"? What, honestly, do you think that thing is? You seem to have some idea. Are you aware of how many artists, here and in Japan, have tried bring this instrument to the forefront?

I work in the Pike Place Market, and I'm privvy to a great cross-section of the world there, especially Americans. There's a busker by the name of "Fred" who plays the Chinese Erhu (violin). Guess how many so-called "cool" people (the hippies that work there) like it? NONE. They HATE it. The visitors just think it's interesting, but they don't sit and listen to it. That sort of intonation simply doesn't jibe with most ears, not even all Easterners. So I seriously doubt the shakuhachi is going to explode on the world stage. If it hasn't by now, it never will. It's just not that kind of instrument. Even in Japan it's kind of a novelty to some, expecially with the changing attitudes there. There are a few Japan Pop musicians there who play over thier JapanPop, but it's still never made the instrument MORE popular than it's been in the past.

By the way, we don't cower in front of Brian, we RESPECT him and his hard-won credits. I don't think Brian is better than me, but when it comes to things like album sales and being a working musician, he's THE authority here. Yeah, it makes me a little nervous when i write him, because I've been a fan of his for 20+ years. But overall he's just earned our respect. He's usually the most knowledgable person in the room, but I've found that he's very humble and will look into something further if he feels there might be something there that he hadn't thought of. Usually, though, he's thought about it. I think that's just what us Multi-instrumentalists do.

I might not have added to anything here, but it's worth a try. Seems like some are just getting pissy for no reason. And, unfortunately, people who get pissy in a forum get me all pissy. It's just a discussion about an instrument.

-E

Last edited by kyoreiflutes (2007-02-02 22:05:04)

Eddie is the Man.

I am going to add my 1.5 cents about Shakuhachi Hit songs & ITunes.

I have been spending time with a couple of friends who are music producers here in Boston. They are hit makers..I am not going to mention names but...
Everybody in music biz wants to make a hit song that will sell millions of copies. Singers take priority always.
Its reality, beacuse people connect better with a human voice.
And, besides that, the perfomer (shakuhachi or sax or whatever) needs to be VERY acomplished in their instrument,
they
need a Hit song. You need a kick ass producer (sometimes 2:-) and that cost A LOT of money.
Everything, in the end, comes down to the production of the song. (kenny G for example...the guy has a great production team that does all the arranging)

About our friends here in forum Tairaku ,Philip Gelb and others..they dont want to do smoth jazz shakuhachi.
They play and record music that they love and respect (and I respect) And, its true its not for everybody, and thats ok. Its difficult professional music, that professional musicans and educated listeners will understand.

geni
p..s has anybody read Pat Metheny interview about Kenny G?

kyoreiflutes wrote:

When you start messing with the way it's made, be it a different material, or, more importantly, changing the holes around, it's a different instrument.

Well, there is a precedent. Here's what wikipedia says about the designer of the current silver concert flute. And this was an 1800's invention, not really that long ago:

"<i> Meanwhile, he experimented with constructing flutes out of many different materials such as tropical hardwoods (usually Grenadilla wood), silver, gold, nickel and copper as well as experimenting with changing the positions of the flute's tone holes. After a study of acoustics at the University of Munich, he began experimenting on improving the flute in 1832, first patented his new fingering system in 1847 and his new flute was first displayed in 1851 at the London Exhibition.</i>"

In my opinion, Boehm broke the flute for baroque music. However, it made music from the classical period a bit easier to play, and opened the door for composers to write things that would have been inconcievable for flute players to play on the older instruments.

kyoreiflutes wrote:

Do you honestly believe that someday, somebody will do "something" with it no one's thought of? Something that will make Conservatives in Kansas stand up and say, "hey, it's shakuhachi! that's our favorite new instrument! Forget the guitar, man...

Since you bring up guitar, the electric guitar caught on fast. That was a radical change. I was very skeptical about what Nick was saying too when he brought it up, but I guess there are plenty of precedents even outside of the flute realm. In each of the cases with the Boehm flute and electric guitar though there was a problem that needed to be fixed. Composers were getting hooked on key changes in classical music requiring a chromatic flute and guitar needed amplification. I don't see anything broken with shakuhachi right now.