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#1 2005-11-29 20:22:17

Travis Winegar
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From: Columbia, MO
Registered: 2005-10-31
Posts: 74
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Seiza position -- Bench or no bench?

I've been trying for a couple of months now to sit in the seiza position, and I'm not getting very good at accustoming myself to it.  Will a bench facilitate the position a little more comfortably without comprimising the benefits of sitting in the position?

-Travis


"As soon as you see something, you already start to intellectualize it. As soon as you intellectualize something, it is no longer what you saw." – Shunryu Suzuki

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#2 2005-12-17 14:55:03

steven
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From: Seattle
Registered: 2005-11-15
Posts: 13

Re: Seiza position -- Bench or no bench?

Hi Travis,

I'm relatively new to this forum so I have been going back through older messages. It's unusual for there to be no reply to a message, I'm wondering if you have gotten any information regarding the sitting position. I almost always play standing up. My meditaiton position is cross legged on a cushion, and I occassionally will play in that position for a short while before or after meditation, but I know that is completely out of the norm for shakuhachi.

Steven

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#3 2005-12-17 15:01:44

kyoreiflutes
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From: Seattle, WA
Registered: 2005-10-27
Posts: 364
Website

Re: Seiza position -- Bench or no bench?

It seems to me as the best benefit from the position is stillness and centering, so if a small bench helps you accomplish that without changing the basic way you sit, then the answer is no.

I can't sit like that either, so I'm thining baout getting a bench as well.

-E


"The Universe does not play favorites, and is not fair by its very Nature; Humans, however, are uniquely capable of making the world they live in fair to all."    - D.E. Lloyd

"Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bells tolls; it tolls for thee."    -John Donne

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#4 2005-12-17 19:11:59

Tairaku 太楽
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From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
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Re: Seiza position -- Bench or no bench?

I once asked Yokoyama Katsuya about this and he said, "Sure you can sit seiza, if you want to be like me, unable to walk, unable to ski......"

Seiza wrecks your knees and ankles.

Standing and playing gives you the best breath support. Sitting in a western chair is good too, if you don't slouch. In both cases put one foot out further than the other.

Seiza is a traditional way of sitting for Japanese people. They learn it when they are young. Young people have rubbery, elastic, bodies. Japanese are tiny people as well. For those of us who are big, and who didn't learn it as children, it's not so good.

I like sitting seiza, so I use a bench or a seiza chair, but don't overdo it because it's not healthy. There's a reason why people who sit seiza in concert are wobbly after they play a long piece.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#5 2005-12-17 21:03:38

Travis Winegar
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From: Columbia, MO
Registered: 2005-10-31
Posts: 74
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Re: Seiza position -- Bench or no bench?

Thanks for the replies.

I also like to sitting seiza occasionally, as it seems to add to the whole eastern experience, and the bench makes me enjoy that feeling a little more than writhing on the floor with a cramp does.  Normally, however, I do stand when I play.


"As soon as you see something, you already start to intellectualize it. As soon as you intellectualize something, it is no longer what you saw." – Shunryu Suzuki

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#6 2005-12-22 11:14:38

jamesnyman
Member
From: Austin, Texas
Registered: 2005-10-23
Posts: 162

Re: Seiza position -- Bench or no bench?

I am 57 years old and took up the shakuhachi as a form of meditation two years ago after my mother died. I am trying to study using Tokuyama Takashi's Take-no-Michi guide and more recently Stan Richardson's CD honkyoku lessons as there is no senei in Austin, Texas, but mainly I just play as meditation in an improvisational style. I cannot sit seiza. When I am away from home I use a seiza bench and cushion...gradually I have adapted and can comfortably play for up to an hour. At home, I use a "kneeling chair" with heat/pressure sensative foam pads for the knees and seat. I can play in it for several hours at a time without discomfort. Because there is no back, they encourage good posture as there is nothing to slump back into. Mine is also just the right height for my music stand. They come in a wide variety of styles and price ranges and are readily available on the internet. Mine is very adjustable and cost $200. All very non-traditional, but I hope this helps.


"The means are the ends in the making."  Mohandas K. Ghandi

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#7 2005-12-22 17:43:20

jumbuk
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From: South-eastern Australia
Registered: 2005-12-15
Posts: 85

Re: Seiza position -- Bench or no bench?

jamesnyman wrote:

I am 57 years old and took up the shakuhachi as a form of meditation two years ago after my mother died.

Hi James.  I am 53 and took up shakuhachi recently.  I have come at it from the music side, as part of my lifelong journey from stringed instruments to (recently) folk flutes.  Although familar with Zen (well, as familar as one can be, even after 20 years of reading and thinking about it!), the meditation side of shakuhachi is probably of less interest to me than the music.

Why I posted this - just to add a bit of support to anyone out there thinking of taking up the shakuhachi at the "advanced" age of 50+.  I read somewhere (Riley Lee's site?) that he had a query from someone aged 38 asking if he was too old to learn the shakuhachi!  My own experience is that the breat control associated with any wind instrument is tremendously beneficial for general health and well-being, and the general maturity and patience one seems to accumulate over a lifetime makes learning the shakuhachi a pleasurable experience.

Having wandered off topic, let me come back to Seiza.  My first couple of attempts were excruciating - I couldn't sit for more than 30 seconds, and I nearly fainted when I stood up.  My main problem was pressure on my toes and feet.  I did a bit of research, and found out how to cross the feet and lay them flat - this helped.  I can now sit Ok in 10 minute bursts.  I don't do it often, but I want to be able to do it for public performances (family, friends) when my playing is good enough for general exhibition (oops, "good enough" is discrimination! naughty, naughty - but then that last comment is discrimination as well - aww, what the heck, this Zen is impossible!).

I like the idea of a bench - I might try to make one.


... as if nothing is happening.  And it is!

Paul Mitchell, Jumbuktu 2006

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#8 2005-12-22 19:51:57

jamesnyman
Member
From: Austin, Texas
Registered: 2005-10-23
Posts: 162

Re: Seiza position -- Bench or no bench?

I never played any instrument prior to the shakuhachi and native american flute and consider myself pretty much a musical klutz. Maybe that is why I like both instruments so much, I can sound pretty good just sort of playing in an improvisational style. I get lost in it and just sort of mellow out.

You will like the seiza bench. It has helped me out a lot. I like the "kneeling chair" even more but it is not very portable and I like to play lots of places.


"The means are the ends in the making."  Mohandas K. Ghandi

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#9 2005-12-22 23:41:07

jumbuk
Member
From: South-eastern Australia
Registered: 2005-12-15
Posts: 85

Re: Seiza position -- Bench or no bench?

jamesnyman wrote:

I never played any instrument prior to the shakuhachi and native american flute

Well, that's something else we have in common (NAF).  I got into the NAF about 3 years ago, partly because I had been using Douglas Spotted Eagle's samples in my electronic music a bit, and liked the sound.  One of my daughters studied classical boehm flute, so I knew how difficult flutes could be (she eventually became quite proficient at it).  I got into NAF because it seemed like an easier way in for a string player.  I soon met Carlos Nakai, and started listening to players like Mary Youngblood.  I found that breath control was an important part of NAF technique, even though it was easy to produce a tone at first.  Experience with these flutes gave me the confidence to tackle side-blown Irish wooden flute (my roots!) and eventually shakuhachi.  The shakuhachi also grew out of using electronic samples - I have a CD out that uses samples, and I wanted to be able to play the same music live.

One of the things I like about folk instruments is the limitations.  The pentatonic scale of the shakuhachi or NAF (or the diatonic scales of Irish harps or flutes etc) forces the player to concentrate on tone and line.  It is my theory that German music headed off into harmonic complexity (well-tempered scales, modulation from key to key etc) to compensate for the lack of tone and dynamics available to organs and harpsichords.  All that Bach stuff is fine if you can devote a lifetime to becoming a professional musician, but we amateurs are better served by picking a simple instrument that we can identify with, and getting as much feeling out of it as we can.  Not that I don't appreciate Bach as one of the most sublime minds that have ever existed!

Anyway, that's my personal rant.  I look forward to catching up with fellow shakuhachi enthusiasts from other countries over the years to come.


... as if nothing is happening.  And it is!

Paul Mitchell, Jumbuktu 2006

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#10 2005-12-23 04:15:29

bluespiderweb
Member
From: Southeastern PA USA
Registered: 2005-10-31
Posts: 66

Re: Seiza position -- Bench or no bench?

Yeah, I'm an old dude, too, and I just started on the shakuhachi.  I'm 52, but sometimes feel much older.  I know I couldn't sit like that with my bad joints, and don't know if a bench would work for me either, but it certainly seems to be better than the floor alone, for anyone.

But, I can play easily enough in a chair, or sitting on the edge of the bed, or standing.  Standing does seem to free up the diaphragm, and give you better breath control, for any kind of flute playing.  So, posture is very important no matter what position or where you play, as Tairaku had suggested before.

Good to have a board like this to sort it all out, isn't it?


Be well,  Barry

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#11 2006-02-25 06:47:02

selfdestruction
Member
Registered: 2005-12-26
Posts: 12

Re: Seiza position -- Bench or no bench?

I can sit seiza all day, though its not something I like doing. There are no chairs in my house so I just got used to it over two years or so. For me its just a matter of shifting slightly, changing which of my feet is above the other, etc etc. I dont sit seiza for any other reason than there are no chairs in my house; if I had chairs I would use them.

Most Japanese people of modern times have grown up with chairs, so they have as much difficulty as we do. Maybe its easier for some people having done tea ceremony or something else that required sitting in seiza when young, but no one Ive met finds it easy.

A Japanese historian me told that the original purpose for sitting seiza was to limit the ability of a person to get up quickly in the presence of the shogun, what with the abundance of assassins. Sometimes images of a shogun surrounded by his servants show him sitting taylor style, while everyone else sits seiza. However, a quick search on the net seems to offer contrary information, with many kendo schools and such talking at length about sword drawing from seiza position. It does seem easier to me to get up from seiza than taylor position.

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#12 2006-02-25 21:51:28

kyoreiflutes
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From: Seattle, WA
Registered: 2005-10-27
Posts: 364
Website

Re: Seiza position -- Bench or no bench?

Hmm, that is interesting; you never really see royalty sitting seiza, do you? You do if it's in thier own room or something, but not "on display"...then they're in chairs, and it must be to be above everyone else, and possibly to flee more easily. Also, if someone comes at you from behind, the chair could provide a small defense, like Chinese Court Chairs: they had Marble backs to not only cool the back on the hottest summer days, but to provide full defense against ANY blade or arrow getting through it. Back then, people were pretty paranoid about getting assasinated or something. I guess we kind of still are.

And Brian...I agree with you on playing while standing. I've found myself playing some really good improv while just noodling around the house, walking around. Sometimes the moon will be out, and we have a great view, so it can be inspiring. I kind of have a thing for the moon, lol. I've also found myself doing a kind of shaking thing in my right leg to vibrate my body in a certain way for vibrato while playing. It's odd, but it works better than all other methods for me, although i can't do it while sitting.

Also, sitting seiza while playing is relatively new, right? In the past, Fuke would be walking (which makes it hard to play), or standing, right? I have this vision of Fuke standing outside someone's house or whatnot, playing under thier Tengai. In fact, I've only seen 1-2 pics of someone wearing the full Komuso gear where they're sitting seiza, while the other several dozen have been standing. It's really only since the shakuhachi took hold as a popular instrument in the modernized Japan (also in Sankyoku, the dates of which I'm still fuzzy), possibly in the late-18oo's (again, I'm not sure on the dates, as I'm still new in my historical research), that the custom of sitting seiza took hold. And this is usually only for smaller, more intimate concerts, from what I've seen. When I see shakuhachi players with orchestras, they're usually standing, and even with larger ensembles. It depends, of course, but that's the "average" I've seen.

However, there's certainly something to be said for sitting seiza, with the rectangular sheet music in front of you, giving the audience a nice, peaceful feeling. I wonder, as I learn more and more Honkyoku by heart, will I play with more "passion" standing than in seiza? I do like to play with my body a lot, and I like musicians who kind of get into it, as long as it doesn't seem forced. I'm a fan of old swing music, where the musicans got down, ya know? I'm also a big fan of watching Nadia Salerno-Sonnenberg play violin, as she just gets so lost in it.

I'm done. Namaste.

-Eddie


"The Universe does not play favorites, and is not fair by its very Nature; Humans, however, are uniquely capable of making the world they live in fair to all."    - D.E. Lloyd

"Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bells tolls; it tolls for thee."    -John Donne

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#13 2006-02-26 00:38:41

Daniel Ryudo
Shihan/Kinko Ryu
From: Kochi, Japan
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 355

Re: Seiza position -- Bench or no bench?

Pardon me for disagreeing but I don't think that sitting seiza while playing is quite as new as the 19th century as the komuso played with shamisen and koto players during part of the Edo period (at least the last century or so of it) even though it was against the Fuke sect's official rules.  Some of the komuso temples such as Reihoji taught laymen shakuhachi and provided them with suichiku-me, or professional names, probably doing some of their teaching in seiza if they were teaching indoors.  There is a famous painting called Utakeizu from 1782 which depicts koto, shamisen, and shakuhachi players on stage, with the shakuhachi player in seiza (there's a copy in Christopher Blaesdel's book The Shakuhachi: A Manual for Learning).   Seiza was something associated with the samurai class and those Japanese wealthy enough to be able to afford houses with tatami mats as well as with arts such as tea ceremony and various budo.  It seems surprising that a Japanese historian would say that the purpose of sitting seiza was to prevent assassins from getting up quickly as there are various sword draws and defenses developed from the seiza position -- the first twenty kata I learned in iaido were all from seiza, though I suppose if you're already standing you might have something of an  advantage.  There is a small closet like room in Kochi castle just off the daimyo's main room where three or four members of his bodyguard sat hidden for hours in seiza in case there was trouble. 
I'm almost 50 now and have been sitting in seiza for shakuhachi practice for nineteen years, also currently doing seiza in aikido (and did it for 8 yrs in iaido but it's been a decade now; I did eventually break down and get knee pads for the hardwood dojo floor); in aikido you're also walking on your knees, which is another fun thing to do...   

After those years of experience I'd probably agree with Brian's comments on  knee and ankle problems, though usually its one's feet going to sleep after a thirty piece like iaigoromo or nanakomachi that causes the shakuhachi player to stumble.  I had no major problems until the end of last summer, when after returning to Japan on a series of long plane rides I found some pain in my left knee.  Now I'm unable to sit in seiza for more than a few minutes without support from a little take apart seiza chair made out of wood that fits into a small bag.   My shakuhachi teacher has also been using a seiza chair for the last few years.  I've noticed that a lot of the older guys in my aikido class don't do the knee walking part of the practice.   Seiza is still practiced by Japanese here on various formal occasions, especially on going out to eat at a traditional place with tatami; people tend to sit in seiza for the speeches or other formalities at the beginning of the event; after the eating and drinking begins men will often sit cross legged but women will usually continue to sit in seiza.  And tea ceremony...the longest I had to sit continuously in seiza was about an hour and a half during a four hour beginning of the year tea ceremony; that was a killer.  Seiza benches, kneeling chairs, bring 'em on.

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#14 2006-02-26 00:58:46

selfdestruction
Member
Registered: 2005-12-26
Posts: 12

Re: Seiza position -- Bench or no bench?

"It seems surprising that a Japanese historian would say that the purpose of sitting seiza was to prevent assassins from getting up quickly as there are various sword draws and defenses developed from the seiza position..."

Im trying to find evidence to support what she said so I know for sure if what she said is true or not, but I cant seem to find anything. When she told me I got the impression it was a fairly obscure piece of information. I guess one possibility is that sword drawing techniques and such were, over time, adapted to sitting seiza. Maybe it only served its purpose of limiting movement when it was first introduced. Just a possibility.

I find standing to be most comfortable for playing shakuhachi too.

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#15 2006-02-26 01:44:17

Daniel Ryudo
Shihan/Kinko Ryu
From: Kochi, Japan
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 355

Re: Seiza position -- Bench or no bench?

Yes, I imagine that the original sword techniques for iaido, practiced out of doors and at night etc. were adapted to sitting seiza, as iaido came out out of iaijutsu at a time when there was less and less opportunity to use the sword in  battle and iai is more of a way of body/mind discipline than a practical fighting art.  It would be interesting to know the exact origins of seiza in Japanese culture.

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#16 2006-02-26 13:58:30

kyoreiflutes
Member
From: Seattle, WA
Registered: 2005-10-27
Posts: 364
Website

Re: Seiza position -- Bench or no bench?

Well, you don't use the longer-length Dai inside, you use the Wakizashi, the short sword. It's rare that you'd use the bigger one, due to the size of buildings back then. And I forgot about Iado using seiza as a starting point.

Yeah, I actually don't know the Komuso history all that well as yet, hence me saying I don't know the dates and whatnot. But it still seems as though sitting seiza while playing in public wasn't the norm for awhile, at least.

-E


"The Universe does not play favorites, and is not fair by its very Nature; Humans, however, are uniquely capable of making the world they live in fair to all."    - D.E. Lloyd

"Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bells tolls; it tolls for thee."    -John Donne

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#17 2006-02-26 21:46:14

Josh
PhD
From: Grand Island, NY/Nara, Japan
Registered: 2005-11-14
Posts: 305
Website

Re: Seiza position -- Bench or no bench?

I found this quote from the seiza club (didn't know there actually was one) but here is what they say about the history:
正座の起源
正座は室町時代に茶道から始まったという説と中国(中国だったと思います)から入ってきたという説があります。
そして正座が一般的に正しい座り方となったのは、明治時代になってからです。
(http://www.seizaclub.com/kobanasi.html)
There seems to be 2 theories, one being that it started in the Muromachi period (1333 - 1573) through the tea ceremony. The other being that it was introduced from China.  Seiza became the proper way of sitting in Japan in the Meiji period (1868 - 1912).

On their site they also talk about the falsity of the rumor that Japanese people's legs are shorter because they sit in seiza from childhood. Apparently scientest say that they are getting taller nowadays because of better nutrition, rather than lack of sitting in seiza in modern times.
They also mention that there is nothing inherently wrong with seiza, the problem is that we don't exercise and stretch our legs enough, increasing blood flow. They say that with proper excercise anyone should be able to sit for up to an hour a day.

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#18 2006-02-27 12:31:59

rpowers
Member
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 285

Re: Seiza position -- Bench or no bench?

Josh wrote:

I found this quote from the seiza club (didn't know there actually was one) but here is what they say about the history:
正座の起源
正座は室町時代に茶道から始まったという説と中国(中国だったと思います)から入ってきたという説があります。
そして正座が一般的に正しい座り方となったのは、明治時代になってからです。
(http://www.seizaclub.com/kobanasi.html)

Or, in the words of Babelfish:

"The beginning of sitting straight

    As for sitting straight there is a theory that you think) from it entered that theory and China that (it was China, in Muromachi era it started from tea ceremony.
    After and those where it becomes method of sitting down whose sitting straight is correct generally being Meiji era, is."

Glad that's been cleared up.

Rich


"Shut up 'n' play . . . " -- Frank Zappa
"Gonna blow some . . ." -- Junior Walker
"It's not the flute." -- Riley Lee

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#19 2006-02-27 13:01:21

kyoreiflutes
Member
From: Seattle, WA
Registered: 2005-10-27
Posts: 364
Website

Re: Seiza position -- Bench or no bench?

Yeah, the Japanese are getting taller. When I was a kid, not that long ago, every Japanese kid I knew was shorter than me, and I'm a short guy. Nowadays though, I rarely see a Japanese man my height; they're usually taller than me, even a lot of the women. In Seattle, we have an amazingly large Japanese population, so I get to see a lot of this kind of thing.

I remember reading, some time ago, that a lot of it is due to the importing of meats from countries outside Japan, particularily from America, where we tend to put hormones in our meat, unlike the Japanese.

I America, the "early blooming" of girls is sometimes attributed to growth hormones in Chicken, but I'm not sure how valid that is.

I find it all terribly interesting, if not just a bit off-topic. wink

-E


"The Universe does not play favorites, and is not fair by its very Nature; Humans, however, are uniquely capable of making the world they live in fair to all."    - D.E. Lloyd

"Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bells tolls; it tolls for thee."    -John Donne

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#20 2006-02-27 23:58:42

Daniel Ryudo
Shihan/Kinko Ryu
From: Kochi, Japan
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 355

Re: Seiza position -- Bench or no bench?

I didn't mean to say that sitting seiza was the norm for komuso players, just that when they played along with koto or shamisen during the latter part of Edo, they probably sat in seiza.  I think we agree that komuso players were usually standing when playing in public, doing their takuhatsu.  In regard to Josh's quotes from the seiza club on seiza becoming the proper way of sitting in Meiji, perhaps it became the proper way of sitting for the samurai class in the Edo period and was only taken up by other parts of the population in Meiji.  According to Engelbert Kaempfer's (a Dutch physician who lived in Japan from 1691-1692 and wrote a book about his experiences that became a bestseller in London in 1727) description of an audience with the shogun "these corridors were lined by a single row of shogunal bodyguards, followed by other high-ranking courtiers in similar order, right along the length of the gallery and along the foreground of the site of the performance.  They were all wearing ceremonial robes and were sitting on their knees and bending low.  The details of the site of the performance, the place where we were presented, can be gathered from the sketch," (p. 361, Kaempher's Japan: Tokugawa Culture Observed).  The sketch he refers to is his own, a detailed drawing which shows the Japanese nobles all sitting in seiza, and Kaempher doing a little song and dance for the shogun.

Last edited by Daniel Ryudo (2006-02-28 19:40:05)

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#21 2006-03-01 20:43:45

Josh
PhD
From: Grand Island, NY/Nara, Japan
Registered: 2005-11-14
Posts: 305
Website

Re: Seiza position -- Bench or no bench?

Thanks for clearing all that up for me Rich:) It's a good thing machines are replacing humans these days. People are just so flawed.

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#22 2006-03-02 20:24:23

Daniel Ryudo
Shihan/Kinko Ryu
From: Kochi, Japan
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 355

Re: Seiza position -- Bench or no bench?

Yes, the recent publication of articles like "The Cyborg Shakuhachi" indicates that machines are not far behind.  With the increased popularity of prosthetics, seiza chair craftsmanship will soon be relegated to history.  Instant suizen programming should become readily available for those of us who have difficulty achieving enlightenment on our own smile.

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#23 2006-06-24 03:45:42

evan kubota
Member
Registered: 2006-04-10
Posts: 136

Re: Seiza position -- Bench or no bench?

This is an interesting thread. When I'm in Japan I occasionally have to sit in seiza for several hours. It doesn't bother me that much, but if you already have bad joints or are fairly old it's not an ideal position. I've never played shakuhachi in seiza... maybe I should give it a try.

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#24 2006-06-24 21:45:55

dstone
Member
From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: 2006-01-11
Posts: 552
Website

Re: Seiza position -- Bench or no bench?

That "seiza-raku" (http://www.seiza-raku.com/) is a very interesting design.  I have a small "normal" wooden folding seiza bench that I use if I'm going to be sitting on hardwood for a long time, but that fabric-covered version is even more portable and lighter.  It would be nice for hiking/travelling.

Thanks for the link, Josh.

-Darren.


When it is rainy, I am in the rain. When it is windy, I am in the wind.  - Mitsuo Aida

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#25 2006-09-30 22:33:13

LStanford
Member
Registered: 2006-09-30
Posts: 9

Re: Seiza position -- Bench or no bench?

The Japanese are sitting seiza at the age of 2, so they're really used to it. It's just impossible for male westerners to find it comfortable straight away.  Females just seem waymore flexible.  I can't play if I'm not comfortable.  I either sit in a chair, or stand, or sit indian-style with a pillow under my butt.   If you're into the whole "Zen-thing" then go with what's natural to YOU!  you may not look like a komuso, but you'll feel more comfortable and that leads to a better practice session.

gambatte!

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