Mujitsu and Tairaku's Shakuhachi BBQ

Tairaku wrote:

Hopefully people will consider that the next time they are thinking, "but it's just a piece of bamboo, why does it cost so much?"

It's not the American makers I question that with. At least on Ebay the highest I see Perry's going for is just slightly upwards of $1000, and the average price is very reasonable, even for just a chunk of bamboo. It's the $1000-$5000 and higher Japanese instruments I'm skeptical about. Some of the pictures I've seen of the workshops suggest that they're cranking these instruments out with some good volume. Like John Singer says on his website it's not like the old days when players made and distributed a limited number of well made flutes. But pricing of anything is a very mysterious thing. There's enough technology in my car door that makes me think it should sell for the price of the car itself. Whatever the market will bear is what something is worth, regardless of the item.

kyoreiflutes wrote:

As a guy fairly knowledgable about molds, I can tell you that doing this via a manufacturer is probably NOT the way to go. I'd actually be a little surprised if the Yuu is made in a real factory. It's the kind of thing that could very easily be done by one person, maybe two. There's ........................, but the bore puzzles me just a bit. Once these guys tell me how it's done, I'm sure it'll click. It's definately not injection molding, as far as I can tell.

I also wouldn't trust a factory due to the fact that they probably wouldn't have the same quality control as you'd have on your own. You'd probably still have to do a lot of finishing work.

As far as resin goes, playing around with different mixes is the way to go. I think I could figure out an excellent mix.

Let me know what you think.

-E

i just received confirmation of your words from a guy from germany. he said in his web he is into small up to 5000 series so here what he said:

.....The solution you are looking for is not easy or cheap.
Actually it may not be possible to do with injection molding. For example, the very thick walls are a big problem..........


so i hope with the help of all to find the way to do it. in fact i will even like it more to find a way to do it by my self cause these people can not be trusted for precision/if they are not overpayed and even then

look now what i have in mind, i collected the pictures from different sites some of them are forum mebers i think. i found the bonchiku the best looking/2.4/ i hope no body will mind if i put some pictures here. this colour and shape i like





by the way i found with search and from some oppinions in the web  this company  http://www.bjbenterprises.com/index.php
they sell a kind of ABS liquid and liquid silicone to make the mold. will write them to ask them exactly what will suit us. and more and more i know may be this is the way to do it cheap

Last edited by costademaria (2007-03-22 18:41:47)

Good project you have going!  Quick thoughts... 

1. "two piece for portability" is overrated.  A one piece 1.8 is more beautiful (to my eye), still small enough for any hand or backpack, and never has any leakage/maintenance issues.

2. If you really want to imitate the color and external nodal shapes of bamboo, make sure you take a look at this modified Yuu project.  Quite amazing looking, I think:  http://home.earthlink.net/~soundwave1/Inga/yuu.htm   



-Darren.

Last edited by dstone (2007-03-23 19:08:10)

dstone wrote:

Good project you have going!  Quick thoughts... 

1. "two piece for portability" is overrated.  A one piece 1.8 is more beautiful (to my eye), still small enough for any hand or backpack, and never has any leakage/maintenance issues.

2. If you really want to imitate the color and external nodal shapes of bamboo, make sure you take a look at this modified Yuu project.  Quite amazing looking, I think:  http://home.earthlink.net/~soundwave1/Inga/yuu.htm   

http://home.earthlink.net/~soundwave1/I … uu/top.jpg

-Darren.

yes but we are talking about 2.4 shakuhachi or sth like this.not for 1.8   
in my oppinion i wouldnt split in 2 pieces 2.4 if its for me but you know the people would disagree with that and would be more difficult to cast i think.

it would be great cause have a near root end made by myself 2.4 which by the way yesterday on my first official lesson with a teacher turned to be very suitable for traditional study. he after examining it asked me 2 or three times if i have made it from a scratch. then said -it is suitable and well tuned and accepts a lot of air. dont know what he meant exactly but after all i am happy to know that its not so bad. in truth he makes at least 3 times louder sounds than me, and i thought i could blow ro...

Ambi wrote:

Correct me iff I'm wrong but wouldn't a "rapid Prototyping" type outfit be able to make the sort of run numbers being talked about cheaper, they would just need to be provided with CAD models of an "ideal Bore"...

The idea of Cad/Cam sounds good. You obviously know more about it than me, but I remember someone who shelled out less than $2000 for a numerically controlled milling machine and a laptop and was doing some stuff I found impressive, so I have a little understanding of what you're suggesting. However, I'm still wondering why no one has addressed what the "ideal bore" is. If it's a smooth surface the tooling wouldn't be all that difficult, but I'm inclined to think that the smooth bore is a major contributer to the "plastic" sound that some of the participants of this tread have expresed a dislike for. If the bore is to simulate a Jinashi instrument, the bore will be difficult to tool, and I'm not even sure how it could be cast. Two halves maybe, but then forget about creating the mold from a good instrument without harming it. If these guys decide a smooth bore is good enough, you may have come up with an idea that would make this pipe dream possible.

hi, for the moment i am also in the rapid prototyping either with a mold or just the product. but there are some small technical issues or price issues so for now just waiting for the answers of some companies. in fact there is not any problem to be ordered today and for 3 days to have 100 pieces but the price would be unacceptable. so should be found cheap and reliable method. but as i say for now the biggest question for me is the original shakuhachi. everything else is technical stuff.

In following this thread I'm a little confounded.....

Are you re-inventing the wheel? There are any number of very acceptable plastic and hardwood shakuhachi that will get one started at a reasonable price. There are even very acceptable bamboo shakuhachi offered at also very reasonable prices....

I guess if you have enough time, money and desire to see "If it can be done" it might be interesting, but if the idea is business related, well.... looks risky to me.

I think most of us on this forum and everyone I know that plays shakuhachi has at some point made shakuhachi, with varying degrees of success. And I think this a very important part of gaining some knowledge of how this flute works. And should be encouraged. There is nothing like playing an instrument of your own making. In my mind I guess I think the most direct and rewarding approach to shakuhachi is simply find a good piece of bamboo and go at it. Making a simple playable shakuhachi is very do-able. The more demanding your standards the more difficult the task. A perfectly pitched Jinashi or Jiari of any length is no easy task, but regardless of the degree of success, the journey is well worth it

As far as price goes; I don't believe there is always a direct correlation between price and each of our own definitions of quality. Simply too many variables...........

Good luck w/ the project.....

gmiller wrote:

In following this thread I'm a little confounded.....

Are you re-inventing the wheel? There are any number of very acceptable plastic and hardwood shakuhachi that will get one started at a reasonable price.

The way the idea of manufacturing a new instrument started was that a Taraiku was looking for a plastic instrument similar to the Yuu but longer so that students could be introduced to longer instruments at a very affordable price and that they'd all be the same length and of consistent and reasonably good quality. So it's not re-inventing the wheel. Even if it turns out to be not possible due to cost, so far I've learned from the thread.

edosan wrote:

gmiller wrote:

As far as price goes; I don't believe there is always a direct correlation between price and each of our own definitions of quality. Simply too many variables...........

Good luck w/ the project.....

A profound voice of reason.

Even if you do get something like this off the ground, you'll have to make a BUNCH of 'em to make the project viable, and pray,
where's the market.

Ain't none, never will be.

eB

Most shakuhachi players are in Japan and most are very conventional 1.8 people. Japanese do not readily accept non-Japanese products related to their traditional arts. So that leaves the rest of the world. Most of them are also conventional 1.8 players. But it looks like Perry and Ken are selling a decent number of jinashi long flutes to westerners so who knows maybe we can start a trend. Look how karate and aikido have taken root in the West. We must remain optimistic, maybe it will take several generations or even centuries. Still short in the scheme of shakuhachi history. Remember the shakuhachi came to Japan from China. It can migrate.

kyoreiflutes wrote:

Costa and I are discussing rapid prototyping using Solid Plastic printing. More details will come soon.

-E

I don't know what you guys ended up talking about, but even if just for educational purposes, this website describes how the pocket sax (advertised right here on this forum!) is manufactured: http://xaphoon.com/Pocket%20Sax.html