Mujitsu and Tairaku's Shakuhachi BBQ

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Tube of delight!

#51 2007-03-22 08:56:55

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: 6- and 8-hole "shakuhachi"

Tairaku wrote:

Hopefully people will consider that the next time they are thinking, "but it's just a piece of bamboo, why does it cost so much?"

It's not the American makers I question that with. At least on Ebay the highest I see Perry's going for is just slightly upwards of $1000, and the average price is very reasonable, even for just a chunk of bamboo. It's the $1000-$5000 and higher Japanese instruments I'm skeptical about. Some of the pictures I've seen of the workshops suggest that they're cranking these instruments out with some good volume. Like John Singer says on his website it's not like the old days when players made and distributed a limited number of well made flutes. But pricing of anything is a very mysterious thing. There's enough technology in my car door that makes me think it should sell for the price of the car itself. Whatever the market will bear is what something is worth, regardless of the item.


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#52 2007-03-22 10:00:30

costademaria
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From: spain, denia
Registered: 2006-12-11
Posts: 110
Website

Re: 6- and 8-hole "shakuhachi"

in fact that i wanted to say but you pointed it better.


and about the yuu  read this,the answer to one of my requests , without comment:

Boyan:

If the production quantity is less than 20,000 pieces we would not be interested.

I know a French company with a factory in China MAPED (Kunshan China) makes this type of plastic flute for schools.

Good Luck!

Last edited by costademaria (2007-03-22 14:12:56)


"how dear sir did you cross the flood?" "by not halting,friend,and by not straining i crossed the flood."
"but how is it,dear sir,that by not halting and by not straining you crossed the flood?"
"when i came to a standstill,friend,then i sank,but when i struggled,then i got swept away.it is in this way by not halting and by not straining i crossed the flood"

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#53 2007-03-22 14:24:36

costademaria
Member
From: spain, denia
Registered: 2006-12-11
Posts: 110
Website

Re: 6- and 8-hole "shakuhachi"

kyoreiflutes wrote:

As a guy fairly knowledgable about molds, I can tell you that doing this via a manufacturer is probably NOT the way to go. I'd actually be a little surprised if the Yuu is made in a real factory. It's the kind of thing that could very easily be done by one person, maybe two. There's ........................, but the bore puzzles me just a bit. Once these guys tell me how it's done, I'm sure it'll click. It's definately not injection molding, as far as I can tell.

I also wouldn't trust a factory due to the fact that they probably wouldn't have the same quality control as you'd have on your own. You'd probably still have to do a lot of finishing work.

As far as resin goes, playing around with different mixes is the way to go. I think I could figure out an excellent mix.

Let me know what you think.

-E

i just received confirmation of your words from a guy from germany. he said in his web he is into small up to 5000 series so here what he said:

.....The solution you are looking for is not easy or cheap.
Actually it may not be possible to do with injection molding. For example, the very thick walls are a big problem..........


so i hope with the help of all to find the way to do it. in fact i will even like it more to find a way to do it by my self cause these people can not be trusted for precision/if they are not overpayed and even then


"how dear sir did you cross the flood?" "by not halting,friend,and by not straining i crossed the flood."
"but how is it,dear sir,that by not halting and by not straining you crossed the flood?"
"when i came to a standstill,friend,then i sank,but when i struggled,then i got swept away.it is in this way by not halting and by not straining i crossed the flood"

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#54 2007-03-22 17:59:43

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: 6- and 8-hole "shakuhachi"

costademaria wrote:

.....The solution you are looking for is not easy or cheap.
Actually it may not be possible to do with injection molding. For example, the very thick walls are a big problem..........

The walls of the 2.2 (my longest shakuhachi) aren't very thick at all. I know that's not representative of all of Perry's  flutes, but a lot of them seem to fit the same description. BTW, you apparently presented the person who gave you this answer with some plans. I'm still curious, are they of a jiari or a jinashi instrument? Jinashi by its nature will have thinner walls when you subtract that layer of cement.


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#55 2007-03-22 18:40:13

costademaria
Member
From: spain, denia
Registered: 2006-12-11
Posts: 110
Website

Re: 6- and 8-hole "shakuhachi"

look now what i have in mind, i collected the pictures from different sites some of them are forum mebers i think. i found the bonchiku the best looking/2.4/ i hope no body will mind if i put some pictures here. this colour and shape i like

http://costademaria.googlepages.com/2_resize.jpg
http://costademaria.googlepages.com/3_resize.jpg


by the way i found with search and from some oppinions in the web  this company  http://www.bjbenterprises.com/index.php
they sell a kind of ABS liquid and liquid silicone to make the mold. will write them to ask them exactly what will suit us. and more and more i know may be this is the way to do it cheap

Last edited by costademaria (2007-03-22 18:41:47)


"how dear sir did you cross the flood?" "by not halting,friend,and by not straining i crossed the flood."
"but how is it,dear sir,that by not halting and by not straining you crossed the flood?"
"when i came to a standstill,friend,then i sank,but when i struggled,then i got swept away.it is in this way by not halting and by not straining i crossed the flood"

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#56 2007-03-23 15:38:18

costademaria
Member
From: spain, denia
Registered: 2006-12-11
Posts: 110
Website

Re: 6- and 8-hole "shakuhachi"

hi,sorry if i overload this discussion with messages but this just to keep  any body if is interested updated. short resume till now-
with the money is ok, hot or cold molding still to decide.
today recieved the price for the mold made in china and is acceptable for me. still many things not clear,ABS resin- clear, how will they copy the bore is not clear,the weight of the shakuhachi not clear,the price of a piece not clear,without fingerholes-this is clear to lower the price,2 piece for portability is quite clear.colouring is not so clear if can imitate well bamboo or will look like the yuu,so it seems we can go this way.

will wait to clear the cold casting/silicone mold clear,liquid plastic and price not clear./ here waiting for kyoreiflutes .

i will appreciate if anybody helps with this.in whatever manner

THE MAIN THING TO CLEAR- WHO WILL PROVIDE THE MASTER shakuhachi FOR THIS /SHOULD BE THE MAKER/. IF I COULD I WOULD DO IT BUT I AM A BEGGINNER SO PLEASE MANY PEOPLES LIFES  WOULD BENEFFIT  FROM THIS IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER. I AM VERY OPEN TO SUGGESTIONS HOW TO BE DONE. I HOPE YOU UNDERSTAND THAT MAY BE THE NEXT YEARS I WILL JUST TRY TO COLLECT BACK THE MONEY I WILL SPEND FOR THIS . I DONT EXPECT TO BUY A NEW MERCEDES WITH THAT
WELL, SAY YOUR WORD AND THANKS FOR READING THIS


"how dear sir did you cross the flood?" "by not halting,friend,and by not straining i crossed the flood."
"but how is it,dear sir,that by not halting and by not straining you crossed the flood?"
"when i came to a standstill,friend,then i sank,but when i struggled,then i got swept away.it is in this way by not halting and by not straining i crossed the flood"

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#57 2007-03-23 19:06:13

dstone
Member
From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: 2006-01-11
Posts: 552
Website

Re: 6- and 8-hole "shakuhachi"

Good project you have going!  Quick thoughts... 

1. "two piece for portability" is overrated.  A one piece 1.8 is more beautiful (to my eye), still small enough for any hand or backpack, and never has any leakage/maintenance issues.

2. If you really want to imitate the color and external nodal shapes of bamboo, make sure you take a look at this modified Yuu project.  Quite amazing looking, I think:  http://home.earthlink.net/~soundwave1/Inga/yuu.htm   

http://home.earthlink.net/~soundwave1/Inga/images/yuu/top.jpg

-Darren.

Last edited by dstone (2007-03-23 19:08:10)


When it is rainy, I am in the rain. When it is windy, I am in the wind.  - Mitsuo Aida

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#58 2007-03-23 21:49:29

kyoreiflutes
Member
From: Seattle, WA
Registered: 2005-10-27
Posts: 364
Website

Re: 6- and 8-hole "shakuhachi"

I'm working on it, no worries.

And I think I know how to make a simple mold for this, believe it or not. In fact, I know TWO ways to make a mold for this, but one's a bit on the esoteric side, and would probably require a trip to San Fran for the weekend. But man, would it be THE coolest way to make a mold ever, and wouldn't hurt whatever flute we used. In a way, both are simple, but one is simple, highly accurate, but a little pricier to start with. But not that much. I'll have to think about which one would produce better results.

There would be some finishing work to do, for sure, but not that much. Probably utaguchi and seam work, possibly some hole work. If we went with the 2nd approach, we could probably mold 3-4 at a time, depending on a couple of things.

Edosan, you'd be surprised what can be cast without injection molding. In fact, not a single person I know creates replicas using injection modling, since it's a huge start-up cost. So they've found ways to cast and mold stuff in other ways. Yeah, it's possible that Njalor makes the Yuu in a factory with Injection Molding, but I guess what I should've said is that WE don't need to make THIS one that way. I have a LOT of experience coming up with different ways to cast strange objects, and I know this can be done.

Costa, would you rather take this to email and discuss details?

theeddielloyd@gmail.com

Oh, and Brian, you hit the nail on the head. While it's not that hard to make a very playable, simple shakuhachi, it certainly takes much longer to create a truly beautiful one that will last a really long time, with paste and fine tuning. There's also the time it took to aquire those skills in the first place; it often goes unpaid, and drains the accounts of those of us who jump into it. But it's a lot of fun.

-E

Last edited by kyoreiflutes (2007-03-23 21:52:22)


"The Universe does not play favorites, and is not fair by its very Nature; Humans, however, are uniquely capable of making the world they live in fair to all."    - D.E. Lloyd

"Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bells tolls; it tolls for thee."    -John Donne

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#59 2007-03-24 11:43:39

costademaria
Member
From: spain, denia
Registered: 2006-12-11
Posts: 110
Website

Re: 6- and 8-hole "shakuhachi"

dstone wrote:

Good project you have going!  Quick thoughts... 

1. "two piece for portability" is overrated.  A one piece 1.8 is more beautiful (to my eye), still small enough for any hand or backpack, and never has any leakage/maintenance issues.

2. If you really want to imitate the color and external nodal shapes of bamboo, make sure you take a look at this modified Yuu project.  Quite amazing looking, I think:  http://home.earthlink.net/~soundwave1/Inga/yuu.htm   

http://home.earthlink.net/~soundwave1/I … uu/top.jpg

-Darren.

yes but we are talking about 2.4 shakuhachi or sth like this.not for 1.8   
in my oppinion i wouldnt split in 2 pieces 2.4 if its for me but you know the people would disagree with that and would be more difficult to cast i think.


"how dear sir did you cross the flood?" "by not halting,friend,and by not straining i crossed the flood."
"but how is it,dear sir,that by not halting and by not straining you crossed the flood?"
"when i came to a standstill,friend,then i sank,but when i struggled,then i got swept away.it is in this way by not halting and by not straining i crossed the flood"

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#60 2007-03-24 12:07:12

dstone
Member
From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: 2006-01-11
Posts: 552
Website

Re: 6- and 8-hole "shakuhachi"

costademaria wrote:

yes but we are talking about 2.4 shakuhachi or sth like this.not for 1.8   
in my oppinion i wouldnt split in 2 pieces 2.4 if its for me but you know the people would disagree with that and would be more difficult to cast i think.

I see.  I missed the 2.4 aspect.  Sure some may prefer such a length in two-piece, I suppose.

That's a great choice of length if it gets mass produced because it's significantly lower in pitch than a 1.8 but not so long to exclude too many people because of their arm and hand dimensions.

Ah, I see your original request now:

costademaria wrote:

will please those of you who has 2.4 tell me the weight of your shakuhachi? especually if they are a bit wide bore and fatter?

I have a wonderful wide fat 2.4 but no scale.  Let me see if I can rig up a balance with some water or something... 

-Darren.


When it is rainy, I am in the rain. When it is windy, I am in the wind.  - Mitsuo Aida

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#61 2007-03-24 12:40:06

costademaria
Member
From: spain, denia
Registered: 2006-12-11
Posts: 110
Website

Re: 6- and 8-hole "shakuhachi"

it would be great cause have a near root end made by myself 2.4 which by the way yesterday on my first official lesson with a teacher turned to be very suitable for traditional study. he after examining it asked me 2 or three times if i have made it from a scratch. then said -it is suitable and well tuned and accepts a lot of air. dont know what he meant exactly but after all i am happy to know that its not so bad. in truth he makes at least 3 times louder sounds than me, and i thought i could blow ro...


"how dear sir did you cross the flood?" "by not halting,friend,and by not straining i crossed the flood."
"but how is it,dear sir,that by not halting and by not straining you crossed the flood?"
"when i came to a standstill,friend,then i sank,but when i struggled,then i got swept away.it is in this way by not halting and by not straining i crossed the flood"

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#62 2007-03-25 07:41:14

Ambi
Member
From: Leeds UK
Registered: 2006-06-22
Posts: 108

Re: 6- and 8-hole "shakuhachi"

Hi, this sounds like a great project  (should probably have its  own thread though!) - I'll deffinately have one fiit comes off.
I'm curious though as to why molding seems  to be  the only option being considered, as  has been pointed out you need to make alot to make it economical (by the way, Nihon Conductor Corp make the Yuu).
Correct me iff I'm wrong but wouldn't a "rapid Prototyping" type outfit be able to make the sort of run numbers being talked about cheaper, they would just need to be provided with CAD models of an "ideal Bore" and hole layout, as I understand it these CAM based setups  can manufacture to within very high  tolerances; comparable to anything produced by casting, once shrinkage etc are figured in. The material could then be pretty much anything, Resin, Aluminium, Steel - Dstone could have one in Jade if he can come up wit a block of Jade big enough!
What do you think?


"The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it."

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#63 2007-03-25 08:31:36

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: 6- and 8-hole "shakuhachi"

Ambi wrote:

Correct me iff I'm wrong but wouldn't a "rapid Prototyping" type outfit be able to make the sort of run numbers being talked about cheaper, they would just need to be provided with CAD models of an "ideal Bore"...

The idea of Cad/Cam sounds good. You obviously know more about it than me, but I remember someone who shelled out less than $2000 for a numerically controlled milling machine and a laptop and was doing some stuff I found impressive, so I have a little understanding of what you're suggesting. However, I'm still wondering why no one has addressed what the "ideal bore" is. If it's a smooth surface the tooling wouldn't be all that difficult, but I'm inclined to think that the smooth bore is a major contributer to the "plastic" sound that some of the participants of this tread have expresed a dislike for. If the bore is to simulate a Jinashi instrument, the bore will be difficult to tool, and I'm not even sure how it could be cast. Two halves maybe, but then forget about creating the mold from a good instrument without harming it. If these guys decide a smooth bore is good enough, you may have come up with an idea that would make this pipe dream possible.


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#64 2007-03-25 11:07:32

Ambi
Member
From: Leeds UK
Registered: 2006-06-22
Posts: 108

Re: 6- and 8-hole "shakuhachi"

I don't want  to give the impression that I'm an expert on this stuff (well anything really!), I just have ecclectic interests. I'm hoping that others may know more than me.
As to the finish of the bore, if made from Ali, say, then a "brushed" type finish might be better; Or the bore could be milled at .5mm wider than reequired, that would make it great to experiment with differently textured coated finishes, Imagine a few flutes, identical apart from the grain size, or texture of the coating, as near to a definative test as I can think of.


"The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it."

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#65 2007-03-25 11:38:49

costademaria
Member
From: spain, denia
Registered: 2006-12-11
Posts: 110
Website

Re: 6- and 8-hole "shakuhachi"

hi, for the moment i am also in the rapid prototyping either with a mold or just the product. but there are some small technical issues or price issues so for now just waiting for the answers of some companies. in fact there is not any problem to be ordered today and for 3 days to have 100 pieces but the price would be unacceptable. so should be found cheap and reliable method. but as i say for now the biggest question for me is the original shakuhachi. everything else is technical stuff.


"how dear sir did you cross the flood?" "by not halting,friend,and by not straining i crossed the flood."
"but how is it,dear sir,that by not halting and by not straining you crossed the flood?"
"when i came to a standstill,friend,then i sank,but when i struggled,then i got swept away.it is in this way by not halting and by not straining i crossed the flood"

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#66 2007-03-25 13:01:44

kyoreiflutes
Member
From: Seattle, WA
Registered: 2005-10-27
Posts: 364
Website

Re: 6- and 8-hole "shakuhachi"

Costa and I are discussing rapid prototyping using Solid Plastic printing. More details will come soon.

-E


"The Universe does not play favorites, and is not fair by its very Nature; Humans, however, are uniquely capable of making the world they live in fair to all."    - D.E. Lloyd

"Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bells tolls; it tolls for thee."    -John Donne

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#67 2007-03-25 14:09:33

gmiller
Member
From: Ozello Trail, Fla
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 109

Re: 6- and 8-hole "shakuhachi"

In following this thread I'm a little confounded.....

Are you re-inventing the wheel? There are any number of very acceptable plastic and hardwood shakuhachi that will get one started at a reasonable price. There are even very acceptable bamboo shakuhachi offered at also very reasonable prices....

I guess if you have enough time, money and desire to see "If it can be done" it might be interesting, but if the idea is business related, well.... looks risky to me.

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#68 2007-03-25 14:22:46

costademaria
Member
From: spain, denia
Registered: 2006-12-11
Posts: 110
Website

Re: 6- and 8-hole "shakuhachi"

hi,no we are not reinventing the wheel,and its not for buissiness purposes, just for the sport and to make some cheap long shakuhachi. in fact more and more i think i would go to the cheapest method and do it at home.investing work and not money, but i would not make the mistake of comparing the quallities of 100$ shakuhachi and 3000$ shakuhachi. there should be any difference dont you think?


"how dear sir did you cross the flood?" "by not halting,friend,and by not straining i crossed the flood."
"but how is it,dear sir,that by not halting and by not straining you crossed the flood?"
"when i came to a standstill,friend,then i sank,but when i struggled,then i got swept away.it is in this way by not halting and by not straining i crossed the flood"

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#69 2007-03-25 14:47:09

gmiller
Member
From: Ozello Trail, Fla
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 109

Re: 6- and 8-hole "shakuhachi"

I think most of us on this forum and everyone I know that plays shakuhachi has at some point made shakuhachi, with varying degrees of success. And I think this a very important part of gaining some knowledge of how this flute works. And should be encouraged. There is nothing like playing an instrument of your own making. In my mind I guess I think the most direct and rewarding approach to shakuhachi is simply find a good piece of bamboo and go at it. Making a simple playable shakuhachi is very do-able. The more demanding your standards the more difficult the task. A perfectly pitched Jinashi or Jiari of any length is no easy task, but regardless of the degree of success, the journey is well worth it

As far as price goes; I don't believe there is always a direct correlation between price and each of our own definitions of quality. Simply too many variables...........

Good luck w/ the project.....

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#70 2007-03-25 15:04:08

costademaria
Member
From: spain, denia
Registered: 2006-12-11
Posts: 110
Website

Re: 6- and 8-hole "shakuhachi"

yes i agree totally even if it seems like a contradiction. for my best so far shakuhachi i bought the bamboo near root end pole for 5$ at a bootsale. they were selling the piece for a decoration


"how dear sir did you cross the flood?" "by not halting,friend,and by not straining i crossed the flood."
"but how is it,dear sir,that by not halting and by not straining you crossed the flood?"
"when i came to a standstill,friend,then i sank,but when i struggled,then i got swept away.it is in this way by not halting and by not straining i crossed the flood"

Offline

 

#71 2007-03-25 19:50:46

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: 6- and 8-hole "shakuhachi"

gmiller wrote:

In following this thread I'm a little confounded.....

Are you re-inventing the wheel? There are any number of very acceptable plastic and hardwood shakuhachi that will get one started at a reasonable price.

The way the idea of manufacturing a new instrument started was that a Taraiku was looking for a plastic instrument similar to the Yuu but longer so that students could be introduced to longer instruments at a very affordable price and that they'd all be the same length and of consistent and reasonably good quality. So it's not re-inventing the wheel. Even if it turns out to be not possible due to cost, so far I've learned from the thread.


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#72 2007-03-25 20:35:11

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: 6- and 8-hole "shakuhachi"

gmiller wrote:

As far as price goes; I don't believe there is always a direct correlation between price and each of our own definitions of quality. Simply too many variables...........

Good luck w/ the project.....

A profound voice of reason.

Even if you do get something like this off the ground, you'll have to make a BUNCH of 'em to make the project viable, and pray,
where's the market.

Ain't none, never will be.

eB


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#73 2007-03-25 20:42:47

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3207
Website

Re: 6- and 8-hole "shakuhachi"

edosan wrote:

gmiller wrote:

As far as price goes; I don't believe there is always a direct correlation between price and each of our own definitions of quality. Simply too many variables...........

Good luck w/ the project.....

A profound voice of reason.

Even if you do get something like this off the ground, you'll have to make a BUNCH of 'em to make the project viable, and pray,
where's the market.

Ain't none, never will be.

eB

Most shakuhachi players are in Japan and most are very conventional 1.8 people. Japanese do not readily accept non-Japanese products related to their traditional arts. So that leaves the rest of the world. Most of them are also conventional 1.8 players. But it looks like Perry and Ken are selling a decent number of jinashi long flutes to westerners so who knows maybe we can start a trend. Look how karate and aikido have taken root in the West. We must remain optimistic, maybe it will take several generations or even centuries. Still short in the scheme of shakuhachi history. Remember the shakuhachi came to Japan from China. It can migrate.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#74 2007-03-28 07:21:34

costademaria
Member
From: spain, denia
Registered: 2006-12-11
Posts: 110
Website

Re: 6- and 8-hole "shakuhachi"

may be it can migrate back to china cause the news are that it can have market price of 150 lol

Last edited by costademaria (2007-03-28 07:21:59)


"how dear sir did you cross the flood?" "by not halting,friend,and by not straining i crossed the flood."
"but how is it,dear sir,that by not halting and by not straining you crossed the flood?"
"when i came to a standstill,friend,then i sank,but when i struggled,then i got swept away.it is in this way by not halting and by not straining i crossed the flood"

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#75 2007-05-28 15:27:56

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: 6- and 8-hole "shakuhachi"

kyoreiflutes wrote:

Costa and I are discussing rapid prototyping using Solid Plastic printing. More details will come soon.

-E

I don't know what you guys ended up talking about, but even if just for educational purposes, this website describes how the pocket sax (advertised right here on this forum!) is manufactured: http://xaphoon.com/Pocket%20Sax.html


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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