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#26 2010-01-05 11:43:18

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Shakuhachi as a CLUB? Did they KILL people with it?

Light Use Punishment™


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#27 2010-01-05 12:58:21

ABRAXAS
Member
Registered: 2009-01-17
Posts: 353

Re: Shakuhachi as a CLUB? Did they KILL people with it?

I have flutes that would definitely crack a human skull.


"Shakuhachi music stirs up both gods and demons." -- Ikkyu.

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#28 2010-01-05 15:51:58

Moran from Planet X
Member
From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
Website

Re: Shakuhachi as a CLUB? Did they KILL people with it?

The Evidence

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4059/4249146564_329652dbd3_o.jpg


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#29 2010-01-05 22:39:02

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3222
Website

Re: Shakuhachi as a CLUB? Did they KILL people with it?

Jon wrote:

About 2 years ago back in NYC a college student told me he defended himself with one of my root ends I made for him. Three or so people attacked him for playing flute and being "gay" or something silly like that. Flute becomes club and club returns to flute sucka' fool.

Makes me want to move back!


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#30 2010-01-08 10:51:17

MikeL
Member
Registered: 2008-05-18
Posts: 55

Re: Shakuhachi as a CLUB? Did they KILL people with it?

A student at Nyokai-an came up with a pretty funny tshirt with an image
of a teacher about to club a student with a shakuhachi.

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#31 2010-01-21 18:21:53

FluteSwordsman
Member
Registered: 2010-01-18
Posts: 19

Re: Shakuhachi as a CLUB? Did they KILL people with it?

ABRAXAS wrote:

"Amen" and I agree to a great degree, but there are also many instances of surprising figures aligned with the nationalist/militarist trends long prior to WWII. Haku'un Yasutani was probably sincere in his nationalism and other "right wing" tendencies, and Morihei Ueshiba (not a Buddhist but popularly percieved to be a pacifist) for example also had long-standing involvement with nationalist, militarist, and right wing political activity in Japan. I'm not disagreeing with you, just pointing out there are cases for both sides.

Interesting that I am replying to this post since I am "FluteSwordsman"smile ! I'm not sure about Haku'un Yasutani because I've never heard of him but I know that Morihei Ueshiba had not acquired most of his pacifist ideas at the time he was involved with the Japanese army. You should see some pictures of him in his thirties and forties; the man looked like he could crush steel with his bare hands! In contrast, in his old age he looked more like a kind grandfather. Anyways... yeah, I made my point.

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#32 2010-01-21 22:40:39

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
Historical Zen Mod
From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
Website

Re: Shakuhachi as a CLUB? Did they KILL people with it?

FluteSwordsman wrote:

ABRAXAS wrote:

"Amen" and I agree to a great degree, but there are also many instances of surprising figures aligned with the nationalist/militarist trends long prior to WWII. Haku'un Yasutani was probably sincere in his nationalism and other "right wing" tendencies, and Morihei Ueshiba (not a Buddhist but popularly percieved to be a pacifist) for example also had long-standing involvement with nationalist, militarist, and right wing political activity in Japan. I'm not disagreeing with you, just pointing out there are cases for both sides.

Interesting that I am replying to this post since I am "FluteSwordsman"smile ! I'm not sure about Haku'un Yasutani because I've never heard of him but I know that Morihei Ueshiba had not acquired most of his pacifist ideas at the time he was involved with the Japanese army. You should see some pictures of him in his thirties and forties; the man looked like he could crush steel with his bare hands! In contrast, in his old age he looked more like a kind grandfather. Anyways... yeah, I made my point.

Warning serious thread drift.

Sad to say and I might break the bubble or image people have of Morihei Ueshiba. The man was a fraud in his martial art and he played a religious mystic game which did not fit him at all especially when you know a bit about Japanese religion you will see he was mostly involved with the Omoto Kyo a very freaky and stupid Japanese modern cult that was put down twice by the Japanese government. Even Omoto Kyo is ultra nationalistic even today and their logic belongs on the Molado realm.


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

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#33 2010-01-21 22:45:38

Jam
Member
From: Oxford, England
Registered: 2009-10-02
Posts: 257

Re: Shakuhachi as a CLUB? Did they KILL people with it?

Steady on Gishin old boy, the lad's only young!
Ueshiba may have been a fraud, he may not have. My koryu bujutsu instructor had met him a few times, said if nothing else he was incredibly powerful. I've been on the end of some very nasty aikido techniques, it works. However, in this thread Fluteswordsman hasn't brought religion into this at all...

Still, I am myself a bit wary of the hero worship "o-sensei" gets.

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#34 2010-01-21 23:04:37

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
Historical Zen Mod
From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
Website

Re: Shakuhachi as a CLUB? Did they KILL people with it?

Well the power thing etc we can argue about that for ages and we would never come to a real tangible proof or agreement on this. Now Aikido = Daito Ryu Aikijutsu mainly since this is where he picked up his stuff. Sure it had its flavor like ryu X compared to ryu Y in shakuhachi but in the end it equates to sound and flute blowing. So Aikido or Aikijutsu is truly comparing them is truly beating around the bush.

Anyway Aikido as done by Ueshiba is a newly formulated modern thing and he played on many levels a religious game with his stuff for different reasons at various points in his life. The previous poster might not have talked about religion but I strongly feel Ueshiba has to be exposed for what he was in the end Just a guy with some skill that tried to pimp his ass a some sort of mystical being and also accepted and fed on the elevation some people gave him.

Strange that your Koryu instructor seems to praise his power in a way. In my days in Japan speaking about him in Koryu circles he was a laughing stock one of my buddies in Japan even heard his sensei refer to him as Yoda.
the deification of Ueshiba in Budo seems to be more of a western thing.


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

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#35 2010-01-21 23:18:04

Jam
Member
From: Oxford, England
Registered: 2009-10-02
Posts: 257

Re: Shakuhachi as a CLUB? Did they KILL people with it?

What I've found interesting with Japanese people, is that what they *don't* say is often the most revealing thing.

Why do you feel the need to "expose" a martial artist on a shakuhachi forum, in a thread about using the flute as a club?

No-one here has said that Ueshiba *wasn't* a fraud, just that he was strong. He was in the army, he was bound to be strong. I've seen footage of people flying across the room when being touched by Ueshiba, and I've seen in the flesh, the same thing in a Daito-Ryu club. It's compliance, and it's not my cup of tea.

Still, the thought of Ueshiba "pimping his ass" made me smile! smile

Back on topic though, you could easily do some real damage to someone with a shakuhachi. But then again you could beat someone to death with a trumpet too. My shakuhachi playing is enough to make someone want to kill themselves anyway, rather than listen to any more.

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#36 2010-01-21 23:44:26

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
Historical Zen Mod
From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
Website

Re: Shakuhachi as a CLUB? Did they KILL people with it?

Jam wrote:

Why do you feel the need to "expose" a martial artist on a shakuhachi forum, in a thread about using the flute as a club?

No-one here has said that Ueshiba *wasn't* a fraud, just that he was strong. He was in the army, he was bound to be strong. I've seen footage of people flying across the room when being touched by Ueshiba, and I've seen in the flesh, the same thing in a Daito-Ryu club. It's compliance, and it's not my cup of tea.

Still, the thought of Ueshiba "pimping his ass" made me smile! smile

Back on topic though, you could easily do some real damage to someone with a shakuhachi. But then again you could beat someone to death with a trumpet too. My shakuhachi playing is enough to make someone want to kill themselves anyway, rather than listen to any more.

Because the name was mentioned and I felt it would be good to give some pointers on Ueshiba so the poster might want to look into his life story closer.

I dont know if you are being sarcastic about the army and being strong the flying in the room part since sometimes this can be missinterpreted and maybe this is what I have done here.

In the days of Ueshiba most guys were in the army so this in itself does not mean much. also the flying in the room thing can be done by any good teacher of Judo,Jujutsu,aikido,aikijutsu and you can go on the Chinese side of things and even modern revisionist Korean stuff and it can all be shown and done.

Anyway from the beginning I mentioned a serious thread drift so if you want to beat this horse around I think we can share  a lot and demystify Aikido for others that see this as a traditional art when in fact it is not.  So we should open a new thread in the off topic section.


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

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#37 2010-01-22 00:57:45

Jam
Member
From: Oxford, England
Registered: 2009-10-02
Posts: 257

Re: Shakuhachi as a CLUB? Did they KILL people with it?

I mean no harm!

My tone could possibly be misconstrued as sarcastic, but that wasn't my intention. Ueshiba being in the army would have made him quite strong, that was the only point I was making.

With regards to the flying, I've been on the business end of some techniques that have quite literally thrown me across the tatami and onto my arse/face (which according to some people could be the same thing). On a slightly off-tangent however, I've always been amused by the super-compliance, (I think known as riai) in some of the aiki styles. Rather than not letting the technique happen, throw yourself into it. I understand that this probably helps with the "aiki" side of things, but it's not for me.

Isn't it widely known that Aikido's a gendai budo? Always nice to have a martial arts discussion that doesn't descend into "IF IT'S NOT MMA IT DUZN'T WORK LOLZ".

And that's all I'm saying on the topic in this thread, sorry for hijacking it!

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#38 2010-01-22 01:14:50

ABRAXAS
Member
Registered: 2009-01-17
Posts: 353

Re: Shakuhachi as a CLUB? Did they KILL people with it?

Somewhere online, possibly Aikido Journal, there is a fairly lengthy and well-researched article documenting Ueshiba's extensive involvement, training and otherwise, with various intersecting elements of ultra right-wing Japanese nationalist "secret societies", military intelligence, and organized crime (those worlds intersected very much pre-WWII). Another refutation of the white light mythology surrounding him.

That aside, I'm still very interested to here if anyone has concrete information on Watazumi's martial arts background and political affiliations.


"Shakuhachi music stirs up both gods and demons." -- Ikkyu.

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#39 2010-01-22 01:26:06

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
Historical Zen Mod
From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
Website

Re: Shakuhachi as a CLUB? Did they KILL people with it?

ABRAXAS wrote:

That aside, I'm still very interested to here if anyone has concrete information on Watazumi's martial arts background and political affiliations.

My iaido teacher knew Watazumi very well since they went to the same Military Budo school. The Budo Senmon Gakko. So it would be my assumption that he was either a true Tenno Heika Banzai freak during the prewar and wartime especially if he was at the Budo Senmon Gakko. I suspect that after the war like my teacher he changed his mind towards the whole emperor supremacy etc thing.


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

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#40 2010-01-22 01:27:04

ABRAXAS
Member
Registered: 2009-01-17
Posts: 353

Re: Shakuhachi as a CLUB? Did they KILL people with it?

Oops, I repeated myself with that post. Never mind, I must be getting senile! wink

The Watazumi question is still open.


"Shakuhachi music stirs up both gods and demons." -- Ikkyu.

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#41 2010-01-22 01:28:30

ABRAXAS
Member
Registered: 2009-01-17
Posts: 353

Re: Shakuhachi as a CLUB? Did they KILL people with it?

Gishin wrote:

ABRAXAS wrote:

That aside, I'm still very interested to here if anyone has concrete information on Watazumi's martial arts background and political affiliations.

My iaido teacher knew Watazumi very well since they went to the same Military Budo school. The Budo Senmon Gakko. So it would be my assumption that he was either a true Tenno Heika Banzai freak during the prewar and wartime especially if he was at the Budo Senmon Gakko. I suspect that after the war like my teacher he changed his mind towards the whole emperor supremacy etc thing.

Any word on what specific style of martial art he practiced/taught?


"Shakuhachi music stirs up both gods and demons." -- Ikkyu.

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#42 2010-01-22 01:30:41

ABRAXAS
Member
Registered: 2009-01-17
Posts: 353

Re: Shakuhachi as a CLUB? Did they KILL people with it?

All this mentions is Kendo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budo_Senmon_Gakko

Was there any jujutsu unarmed combat element?


"Shakuhachi music stirs up both gods and demons." -- Ikkyu.

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#43 2010-01-22 01:32:59

ABRAXAS
Member
Registered: 2009-01-17
Posts: 353

Re: Shakuhachi as a CLUB? Did they KILL people with it?

That would explain the kendo footage in the background of the Watazumi talk segment of "Sukiyaki and Chips"


"Shakuhachi music stirs up both gods and demons." -- Ikkyu.

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#44 2010-01-22 01:46:43

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
Historical Zen Mod
From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
Website

Re: Shakuhachi as a CLUB? Did they KILL people with it?

ABRAXAS wrote:

That would explain the kendo footage in the background of the Watazumi talk segment of "Sukiyaki and Chips"

Not really I guess they just wanted to show Japanese martial arts.

Anyhow. The Budo senmon gakko used to teach Kendo,Yawara=Old name for Judo, Jukendo=Bayonette fighting and Sumo as part of college culture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budo_Senmon_Gakko

Last edited by Gishin (2010-01-22 01:48:28)


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

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#45 2010-01-22 05:55:09

ABRAXAS
Member
Registered: 2009-01-17
Posts: 353

Re: Shakuhachi as a CLUB? Did they KILL people with it?

Excellent! Thanks!


"Shakuhachi music stirs up both gods and demons." -- Ikkyu.

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#46 2010-01-22 19:59:54

FluteSwordsman
Member
Registered: 2010-01-18
Posts: 19

Re: Shakuhachi as a CLUB? Did they KILL people with it?

I maintain my view on Morihei Ueshiba. I think you should research with a slightly more open mind about him. Did you know that he stopped teaching for a few years and reverted to a simple life of farming? Did you know that Omoto Kyo is just one more of many sects in Shinto? Its main tenets are contemplation, and acceptance of other religious views. In fact, it even tells westerners who visit their main site to try out another equally worthy more accessible religion rather than join Omoto Kyo. This does not fit in with the mass-converting attitudes of "freaky and stupid Japanese Cults" that you mentioned. Morihei Ueshiba means everything to us as Aikido practitioners and we truly respect the teachings he has handed down to us. As for being ineffective, that is an attitude commonly held against Aikido. People who have not practiced it (or went into it with a predetermined expectation that it would be like other martial arts) simply don't understand that we do Aikdo more for learning how to harmonize with others and discipline ourselves rather than kick asses. It is in the act of harmonizing that we learn where the balance points and critical places are. Then, we can manipulate them to drive away our opponent without serious harm to him/her. It is only after years of sincere dedicated training that this spontaneity emerges, and then any movement can become Aikido. I think this attitude is true of all martial arts, when practiced with the same humility and compassion.

However, I concede that there are many arrogant and competitive Sensei's who are helping to tarnish the image of Aikido. They treat Aikido like a sport and teach people to use the moves in ways that are dangerous and egotistical.

As a point, I think you should think twice before accusing people you have not looked at with an open mind. If you turn out to be wrong, you may severely hinder something good.

In life, we must always consider the possibility of being wrong.

                                                                                           - Johann

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#47 2010-01-22 20:06:19

FluteSwordsman
Member
Registered: 2010-01-18
Posts: 19

Re: Shakuhachi as a CLUB? Did they KILL people with it?

Oh shoot, I just DID bring religion into this thread. Oops. Yeah, I think you're right, we should move these posts to a different thread.

                                                                                                      -Johann

Anyone want to start it?

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#48 2010-01-22 20:22:12

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
Historical Zen Mod
From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
Website

Re: Shakuhachi as a CLUB? Did they KILL people with it?

To me Aikido under Ueshiba is like a cult or religion. Everything is centered towards him I have rarely seen this in Koryu they will talk about past teachers etc but not make a whole philosophy system around them like In Aikido or Shorinji Kempo. Both of those schools were created in modern time when Japan was changing a lot so I suspect they felt they wanted to offer not just a religion but a physical activity linked to it being a form of Budo. Also both those arts tend to make up unverifiable stories and claims about what both founders did in China etc.

I don't like this type of stuff. It does not make it bad I just personally don't like it and the cult they built around him. Sometimes especially in my area Aikido is marketed as a traditional Japanese martial art when it is not totally a traditional thing. It is based on old stuff but not an old tradition. So sadly many people I have known don't really investigate their own art and think they are doing some old traditional thing.


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

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#49 2010-01-22 20:32:42

ABRAXAS
Member
Registered: 2009-01-17
Posts: 353

Re: Shakuhachi as a CLUB? Did they KILL people with it?

I've met guys with blackbelts in Brazilian Jiujitsu who think Jiujitsu was invented in Brazil. In however long it takes to earn a black belt, thats how much history they got.

Commercial schools generally aren't going to hand out information that devalues their product.


"Shakuhachi music stirs up both gods and demons." -- Ikkyu.

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#50 2010-01-22 22:24:58

Zakarius
Member
From: Taichung, TAIWAN
Registered: 2006-04-12
Posts: 361

Re: Shakuhachi as a CLUB? Did they KILL people with it?

With two people of relatively similar speed, technical ability and strength (in that order of importance), the style of fighting studied might make a difference in who comes out on top. Some fighting styles excel versus one and fail versus another. Realistically, however, when a person is fighting to protect oneself from injury or death, all of the above pales in comparison to the conviction of survival. It's all about willpower.

Zak


塵も積もれば山となる -- "Chiri mo tsumoreba yama to naru." -- Piled-up specks of dust become a mountain.

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