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#1 2007-04-07 17:09:33

dreamofnobody
Member
From: Russia, Krasnodar
Registered: 2007-01-26
Posts: 50

Second Octave Tuning

I greeting everybody. At once I want to make excuses for my mistakes and muddles in English, it is not my native language. I make shaku not so long, and I find this thing very exciting and interesting. I spent much time studying materials about flute making on www.navaching.com and other info. I think I had some experience doing my flutes. My main problem now is second octave: I have maid a flute (and not one) and it’s good in first register, but second octave is bad – Tsu is 5 percent flatter, Re is 15, Chi is 1/4 tone flatter than it must be. On www.navaching.com there is paragraph called “Second Octave”, it describes this problem. And they offer to remove some material from the tube in A =1/4 of length from the top and the length of this removing stripe is B = 1/16. Will this method work that is my question. The geometry of the bore is different, and how I will know the value of A and B parameters precisely? I have some doubt what one stripe can tune up all notes in correct way. I can do many experiments, but I think ask advice of more experienced people is wisely. Maybe there is tuning algorithm or something like that? Or maybe problem is harder, and I moving not that way? I wait your advices, please use not very complex English if you can. Thanks everybody.


flutemakerlab@gmail.com

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#2 2007-04-07 20:50:55

costademaria
Member
From: spain, denia
Registered: 2006-12-11
Posts: 110
Website

Re: Second Octave Tuning

hi,i asume you make non root end but even not so i also one day met the same problem. in my oppinion the utaguchi should be made with a smaller angle/filed/ and should be looked into the bore if its too small at the important for the second octave places or if there are any nodes left at these places. the size of the holes should be measured once again also. so i suggest you to check there was a thread here with utaguchi picture of Perrys shakuhachi.just put your over a printed picture and file exactly the angles,you wont make a mistake,thats how i did my first bamboo shakuhachi. after that calculate again the depth and the width as navaching sais.then use sth which measures 0.01mm!!!!!!!. so now you will be sure that there is nothing wrong with the utaguchi. after that follow the steps i suggest.hope this is helpfull

ps look here http://shakuhachiforum.com/viewtopic.php?id=475

Last edited by costademaria (2007-04-07 20:55:29)


"how dear sir did you cross the flood?" "by not halting,friend,and by not straining i crossed the flood."
"but how is it,dear sir,that by not halting and by not straining you crossed the flood?"
"when i came to a standstill,friend,then i sank,but when i struggled,then i got swept away.it is in this way by not halting and by not straining i crossed the flood"

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#3 2007-04-07 21:27:05

philthefluter
Member
From: Dublin, Ireland
Registered: 2006-06-02
Posts: 190
Website

Re: Second Octave Tuning

Please let us know if you are working  with PVC or bamboo. If the former,  Nelson's site is very comprehensive. If working with bamboo, the second octave is always a challenge and will change with each piece of bamboo. If notes are flat, the holes can be opened more to sharpen (thought this wil affect timbre).


"The bamboo and Zen are One!" Kurosawa Kinko
http://www.shakuhachizen.com/
http://www.myspace.com/shakuhachizen

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#4 2007-04-08 10:51:49

Yungflutes
Flutemaker/Performer
From: New York City
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 1061
Website

Re: Second Octave Tuning

dreamofnobody wrote:

I think I had some experience doing my flutes. My main problem now is second octave: I have maid a flute (and not one) and it’s good in first register, but second octave is bad – Tsu is 5 percent flatter, Re is 15, Chi is 1/4 tone flatter than it must be. On www.navaching.com there is paragraph called “Second Octave”, it describes this problem. And they offer to remove some material from the tube in A =1/4 of length from the top and the length of this removing stripe is B = 1/16. Will this method work that is my question. The geometry of the bore is different, and how I will know the value of A and B parameters precisely?

Hi Dreamofnobody, if you are working with very precise bore measures as it pertains to a contmporary shakuhachi flute as understood by experienced makers, this will make a big difference. But it is difficult to say exactly what the affects will be on the entire flute. If you are working with PVC or Jinashi, it will also have some affect it but to a lesser degree.


I have some doubt what one stripe can tune up all notes in correct way. I can do many experiments, but I think ask advice of more experienced people is wisely.

If your bore is very specific, a little stripe will tell you a lot.

Maybe there is tuning algorithm or something like that? Or maybe problem is harder, and I moving not that way? I wait your advices, please use not very complex English if you can. Thanks everybody.

Keep experimenting. If you play a style of shakuhachi music with deep understanding, that will help you make critical decisions on how to adjust for pitch and tone color.

Enjoy the process.
Namaste, Perry


"A hot dog is not an animal." - Jet Yung

My Blog/Website on the art of shakuhachi...and parenting.
How to make an Urban Shakuhachi (PVC)

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#5 2007-04-08 12:32:34

Mujitsu
Administrator/Flutemaker
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-05
Posts: 885
Website

Re: Second Octave Tuning

dreamofnobody wrote:

Maybe there is tuning algorithm or something like that? Or maybe problem is harder, and I moving not that way?

Have you made other shakuhachi which were tuned well in the second octave? If not, it might help to start on more flutes rather than trying to make one flute perfect. With many flutes together, you can compare problems, then slowly learn to solve them by working on new flutes.

Best of luck!

Ken

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#6 2007-04-08 17:13:03

dreamofnobody
Member
From: Russia, Krasnodar
Registered: 2007-01-26
Posts: 50

Re: Second Octave Tuning

To Costademaria: I don’t think the utaguchi matters in this case.

To Philthefluter: I work with non root bamboo.

To Yungflutes and Mujitsu: I can keep trying to experiment, but I have waited some advices of more experienced people, to do less mistakes, and to have some guides to move correct way. It’s like when you learn to swim somebody advice you how to move hands and legs, how to breathe … Of course if you want, you can learn to swim yourself, but you can waste more time than it need.
Your advices is very abstract like “keep trying and you will win”. In any case thanks.


flutemakerlab@gmail.com

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#7 2007-04-09 14:47:25

Karmajampa
Member
From: Aotearoa (NZ)
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 574
Website

Re: Second Octave Tuning

Non root end culms are more difficult as they do not have an internal taper. The taper usually present in a root end culm gives back pressure and so adds additional factors to assist getting good sounds from higher notes.

Kel.


Kia Kaha !

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#8 2007-04-09 18:42:04

costademaria
Member
From: spain, denia
Registered: 2006-12-11
Posts: 110
Website

Re: Second Octave Tuning

hi, i said this for the utaguchi just for you to be shure that there is nothing wrong so to continue with the other steps. i still think that the problem is there or in the nodes /removal/. by the way download the pdf from the navaching site there is much more info from his web and there is a chapter especially covering what you do/tune bamboo/. for me the problem may be in the utaguchi cause with not the proper shape and angles you simply can meri the upper register without knowing.so find the centre/no meri no kari/, blow from this position up and down and see what happens.then check the holes,they mabe are too small,undercut them or open them.if you need detailed help you should give detailed description and maybe pictures to avoid the empty talk. i fact i think the best advice was given by Ken.i also follow it.
ps.by the way if you use a pc program to measure the pitch i will advise you to buy a tuner, cause its not the same.


"how dear sir did you cross the flood?" "by not halting,friend,and by not straining i crossed the flood."
"but how is it,dear sir,that by not halting and by not straining you crossed the flood?"
"when i came to a standstill,friend,then i sank,but when i struggled,then i got swept away.it is in this way by not halting and by not straining i crossed the flood"

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#9 2007-04-09 22:18:55

Yungflutes
Flutemaker/Performer
From: New York City
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 1061
Website

Re: Second Octave Tuning

dreamofnobody wrote:

To Yungflutes and Mujitsu: I can keep trying to experiment, but I have waited some advices of more experienced people, to do less mistakes, and to have some guides to move correct way. It’s like when you learn to swim somebody advice you how to move hands and legs, how to breathe … Of course if you want, you can learn to swim yourself, but you can waste more time than it need.
Your advices is very abstract like “keep trying and you will win”. In any case thanks.

Hi dreamofnobody,
The comments were not intended to be abstract so please do not take them that way. Perhaps they could have been more direct. My comment of playing a traditional style of shakuhachi music to help you make decisions was intended to help you think about honing another tool for shakuhachi making - playing skills. It is not only about science and rulers, but of art as well. The maker needs to know how to play shakuhachi music at a certain level. It is a well known fact that beginners will play the second octave flat. It doesn't matter what other flutes you have played before. Beginners will play flat, especially in the second octave. So taking this into consideration, if you tell me your Tsu Kan is 5 cents flat, my educated guess tells me that you are playing flat. In my humble opinion, suggestions on how to sharpen that note on the flute would not be the best advice to offer. But perhaps if you learn how to blow that note sharper, it would make you a better maker in the long run. With a full range of traditional playing techniques, you will be able to accurately access a flute. There's no quick way around this, you must put in the hours.

If you are ever in New York City or Northampton Massachussetts, you are more than welcomed to bring your flute over for a free diagnostic...and cup of tea.

I have discussions on tuning all the time with professional musicians of all kinds. Since each tone hole on the shakuhachi is capable of producing a wide range of pitches according to blowing pressures and angles, how does one judge if a flute is in perfect tuning? Is there such a thing as a perfectly tuned shakuhachi?

Namaste, Perry


"A hot dog is not an animal." - Jet Yung

My Blog/Website on the art of shakuhachi...and parenting.
How to make an Urban Shakuhachi (PVC)

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#10 2007-04-09 22:50:13

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Second Octave Tuning

Yungflutes wrote:

Is there such a thing as a perfectly tuned shakuhachi?

No.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#11 2007-04-09 23:09:42

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Second Octave Tuning

The question of tuning is vexed as Perry says because of the way people play. It's not just an issue of good players play in tune and inexperienced players are flat. If you play a lot of vintage flutes which are known to be made by good players you will still find some that agree with you more than others. Many Myoan flutes and hocchiku respond better and sound more in tune when played in a relatively kari position (head up) as a starting point. A lot of the better Kinko flutes seem to sound best a bit more meri.

I have an Edo period 2.7 and I thought it was out of tune until I experimented and found the correct orientation to the utaguchi and then I realized it was really well in tune especially for an ancient flute. I probably stumbled upon the playing position the original maker used, which is different than the one I usually start out with.

What I do when playing flutes by well known makers is assume that they are good flutes and try to discover the way the shakuhachi likes to be played.

Those of you who are starting out as makers can't rely exclusively upon charts, graphs and computation for hole placements, bore size and so forth. Utaguchi angle plays a huge role in overall playability including pitch and tuning issues. For example the hocchiku of Okuda Atsuya and associated players use a much sharper utaguchi angle than most shakuhachi. Thus when you play it, to get its potential you can't just act like you're playing a normal Kinko 1.8.

In my experience a lot of makers don't realize the flaws of their own flutes because they play well FOR THEM. I have shown some makers tuning problems (and other problems) of their flutes by demonstrating. Sometimes these flaws are not apparent when just blowing Ro Tsu Re Chi Ri. You need to play certain traditional pieces and techniques to find if it responds as a shakuhachi should. To be a good maker you have to be open to suggestions from other makers and players. If you are new to making and are not an advanced player yourself the best thing you can do is seek out a good shakuhachi player (preferably who plays the way you would like to sound) and seek input from them.

Here's the reality of shakuhachi making. It takes a long time and some luck to get good at it. And the more you work the luckier you get!


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#12 2007-04-10 15:27:26

Karmajampa
Member
From: Aotearoa (NZ)
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 574
Website

Re: Second Octave Tuning

Is there such a thin as a correctly tuned breath !

Kel.


Kia Kaha !

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#13 2007-04-10 19:04:52

caffeind
Member
From: Tokyo
Registered: 2006-04-13
Posts: 148

Re: Second Octave Tuning

Tairaku wrote:

Many Myoan flutes and hocchiku respond better and sound more in tune when played in a relatively kari position (head up) as a starting point. A lot of the better Kinko flutes seem to sound best a bit more meri.

Can the relationships between the notes on a shakuhachi be pushed out of balance with each other by playing too meri or kari? Ive been wondering about this for a while because I like the tone of my 1.8 in a kari position but the pitch seems harder to rein in.

Last edited by caffeind (2007-04-10 19:10:33)

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#14 2007-04-10 19:26:01

dreamofnobody
Member
From: Russia, Krasnodar
Registered: 2007-01-26
Posts: 50

Re: Second Octave Tuning

To Costademaria:

You Wrote:
>by the way download the pdf from the navaching site there is much more info from his web and >there is a chapter especially covering what you do/tune bamboo/

I had downloaded some .pdf it is similar to web pages info (contains all the pages). Did you mean this .pdf? If no, give me the link please. There is no chapter named “tune bamboo” in my .pdf.   

You Wrote:
ps.by the way if you use a pc program to measure the pitch i will advise you to buy a tuner, cause its not the same.

I use pc tuner. I had downloaded it from the link in navaching. I think it is very comfortable and visual. I have seen much pc tuners and they are lose in comparison with it. I have tuner in my Korg guitar processor and it’s not very accurate and visual. What kind of tuner did you mean analogue or digital? The principles of work in digital tuner and pc tuner are the same. Pc program takes digits from the soundcard Analogue-Digital Encoder and then analyse it. Box digital tuner has its own Analogue-Digital Encoder and some kind of analyzing program inside.Where is the difference, in program or in the ADE? If it is, it’s not critical. I have never seen the analogue tuners. Can’t say anything about it. I think dialogue about tuners is senseless.

How I tune: I do approximate calculations for the holes placement using the percents 78,68,58,48,42. Then I move this points based on my intuition and experience. Drill 1 hole with 5mm diameter, then slowly enlarge the hole by the file to achieve near fine pitch (leave the hole some flatter) and hole size. I do this procedure to another holes. After I do precisely tune the instrument, enlarging the holes. When I tune some hole: I try to breathe evenly, look at the tuner, try to keep pitch constant, then quickly open the hole I tune (or jump to another hole) and look at the pitch. I repeat this many times to be confident that I breathed evenly.

In second octave I try to control my breathe the same way, and I do not think that Chi Kan is 1/4 tone flatter is breathe mistake. I will test my flute in different meri/kari angles, and will describe the results.

But I think the problem is that the geometry of the bore is incorrect. When I have been doing this flutes I didn’t think about second octave and I had made the utaguchi in the narrow side of bamboo stick, so the foot is wide. Opposite situation in the root bamboo shaku’s, where bore widen from the foot to the utaguchi and this geometry sharpens second octave. But even in this case I think tuning is needs.

To Yungflutes: Thanks for invitation on a cup of tea, it’s very pleasantly, but I live in different continent, and in my pockets not so much money to travel on the world. It’s teach to travel in mind smile.

To Tairaku: I have no opportunity to have a teacher, there is no teachers in my city.


flutemakerlab@gmail.com

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#15 2007-04-10 23:04:15

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Second Octave Tuning

caffeind wrote:

Tairaku wrote:

Many Myoan flutes and hocchiku respond better and sound more in tune when played in a relatively kari position (head up) as a starting point. A lot of the better Kinko flutes seem to sound best a bit more meri.

Can the relationships between the notes on a shakuhachi be pushed out of balance with each other by playing too meri or kari? Ive been wondering about this for a while because I like the tone of my 1.8 in a kari position but the pitch seems harder to rein in.

Yes that has a big effect on both tone and pitch.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#16 2007-04-10 23:09:23

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Second Octave Tuning

dreamofnobody wrote:

To Tairaku: I have no opportunity to have a teacher, there is no teachers in my city.

Where are you? Maybe you should post your location on your profile. Actually everybody should post theirs so we know who and where we are talking to. Somebody might be passing through your area at some point.

Thanks,

BR


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#17 2007-04-11 07:23:59

dreamofnobody
Member
From: Russia, Krasnodar
Registered: 2007-01-26
Posts: 50

Re: Second Octave Tuning

I wait guests from all the world. I promice vodka with salted cucumbers and introduce you to my bear. smile))


flutemakerlab@gmail.com

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#18 2007-04-14 15:38:17

costademaria
Member
From: spain, denia
Registered: 2006-12-11
Posts: 110
Website

Re: Second Octave Tuning

hi,

I had downloaded some .pdf it....

the pdf is shakudesign2007.pdf and the page is 276 and is called ^nodal tuning^. is at the end of the pdf/281pages total/

some kind of analyzing program inside.Where is the difference, in program or in the ADE? If it is, it’s not critical

thedifference in my notebook is the fan cooler which makes noise and is very near the microphone so sometimes plays me tricks

and a quiestion to Tairaku and the others

In my experience a lot of makers don't realize the flaws of their own flutes because they play well FOR THEM

thats why i once asked questions of the fine tuning but mostly received spiritual guidance answers not so many technical as i expected. so today working on a shakuhachi /near root,a lot of bore work,almost perfect bore and length,very loud,strong tone/ i also ask a technical quiestion. will explain it simple. obviously 2.3 shakuhachi is for traditional study so if the sond it can /i can/ produce is 1234567 loud where 1 is weak and 7 is very loud which i produce well  where on this scale to put the exact pitch cause blowing louder raises it. to put it so that the instrument will be ok for selling?
cause obviously spend a lot of time with it and i can play it easily. this is very important question for me so thanks ...
ps.please i dont search for spiritual guidance...


"how dear sir did you cross the flood?" "by not halting,friend,and by not straining i crossed the flood."
"but how is it,dear sir,that by not halting and by not straining you crossed the flood?"
"when i came to a standstill,friend,then i sank,but when i struggled,then i got swept away.it is in this way by not halting and by not straining i crossed the flood"

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#19 2007-04-14 17:33:02

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Second Octave Tuning

costademaria wrote:

thats why i once asked questions of the fine tuning but mostly received spiritual guidance answers not so many technical as i expected. so today working on a shakuhachi /near root,a lot of bore work,almost perfect bore and length,very loud,strong tone/ i also ask a technical quiestion. will explain it simple. obviously 2.3 shakuhachi is for traditional study so if the sond it can /i can/ produce is 1234567 loud where 1 is weak and 7 is very loud which i produce well  where on this scale to put the exact pitch cause blowing louder raises it. to put it so that the instrument will be ok for selling?
.

Actually doesn't matter. Most makers of long flutes just make the flute and don't think about whether it's on a specific pitch. Maybe it's in between A and Bb but it's a great flute for honkyoku. That's OK.

But if you are aiming for a specific pitch having it play on pitch when you're blowing strong is correct. So blow as strong as you can without causing muraiki or distortion and measure the pitch then.

That still won't account for the variable of your embouchure. Hope this is what you were looking for.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#20 2007-04-14 17:58:39

costademaria
Member
From: spain, denia
Registered: 2006-12-11
Posts: 110
Website

Re: Second Octave Tuning

yes,thank you. in fact it was in A but when i started playing  more time with it and found out some details i opened it to Bb.thanks again for the info


"how dear sir did you cross the flood?" "by not halting,friend,and by not straining i crossed the flood."
"but how is it,dear sir,that by not halting and by not straining you crossed the flood?"
"when i came to a standstill,friend,then i sank,but when i struggled,then i got swept away.it is in this way by not halting and by not straining i crossed the flood"

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#21 2007-04-14 18:16:48

costademaria
Member
From: spain, denia
Registered: 2006-12-11
Posts: 110
Website

Re: Second Octave Tuning

Tairaku, as you are so kind to answer my quiestions i have also another/comes from lack of experience/. when i opened the bottom of the shakuhachi the walls there become somehow thin but sounds ok so from experience can you tell me if there is some advantage of the thick root apart from the geometry of the bore, i mean do you find them superior sounding  or no? cause with my playing abilities i cant figure this well


"how dear sir did you cross the flood?" "by not halting,friend,and by not straining i crossed the flood."
"but how is it,dear sir,that by not halting and by not straining you crossed the flood?"
"when i came to a standstill,friend,then i sank,but when i struggled,then i got swept away.it is in this way by not halting and by not straining i crossed the flood"

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#22 2007-04-15 09:55:14

Yungflutes
Flutemaker/Performer
From: New York City
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 1061
Website

Re: Second Octave Tuning

costademaria wrote:

hi,


and a quiestion to Tairaku and the others

In my experience a lot of makers don't realize the flaws of their own flutes because they play well FOR THEM

thats why i once asked questions of the fine tuning but mostly received spiritual guidance answers not so many technical as i expected. so today working on a shakuhachi /near root,a lot of bore work,almost perfect bore and length,very loud,strong tone/ i also ask a technical quiestion. will explain it simple. obviously 2.3 shakuhachi is for traditional study so if the sond it can /i can/ produce is 1234567 loud where 1 is weak and 7 is very loud which i produce well  where on this scale to put the exact pitch cause blowing louder raises it. to put it so that the instrument will be ok for selling?
cause obviously spend a lot of time with it and i can play it easily. this is very important question for me so thanks ...
ps.please i dont search for spiritual guidance...

Hi costademaria, spiritual guidance will go a long way in shakuhachi making. But that being said, let's talk about volume and pitch. According to your scale, a player should be able to play the loudest proper pitch on 7. If you are making shakuhachi for professional players, they blow strong with the harmonic overtones to attain the classical ringing timbre. This means having to push the note. A teacher once told me to always try to play as loud as possible. Many can argue the thought behind this but playing in this manner prepares the player for performing in a contemporary musical situation for most shakuhachi playing styles as they are practiced today in Japan (Honkyoku would be a different situation). If your flute does play in proper pitch throughout at 7, then a strong player will feel he or she can play freely. If it can not take a mature blowing  technique, they may feel limited by having to hold back.

I think Darren mentioned a while back that he'd like to hear a Ro at 11.  Or, was it Nigel?

Hope this helps, Perry


"A hot dog is not an animal." - Jet Yung

My Blog/Website on the art of shakuhachi...and parenting.
How to make an Urban Shakuhachi (PVC)

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#23 2007-04-15 13:24:14

costademaria
Member
From: spain, denia
Registered: 2006-12-11
Posts: 110
Website

Re: Second Octave Tuning

thanks for the answers,in fact i make this for me to use it for the lessons.in my first lesson the teacher said it was ok for honkyoku but i was somehow in doubt as when we started blowing ro , i standing 3 meters from him couldnt hear my own shakuhachi/his sound was like a signal  from  a train./ and i thought i can blow. so i am very hapy as i found a teacher here in spain even if its a 100km away and only once a month. and i am grateful cause he comes from 500 for the lesson. by the way he also told me to play as loud as possible/seems to arise some problems at home...
and i accept spiritual guidance and i know that there is no such thing as separation,everything is a step in our ways,just needed the technical tips this time.thanks


"how dear sir did you cross the flood?" "by not halting,friend,and by not straining i crossed the flood."
"but how is it,dear sir,that by not halting and by not straining you crossed the flood?"
"when i came to a standstill,friend,then i sank,but when i struggled,then i got swept away.it is in this way by not halting and by not straining i crossed the flood"

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#24 2007-04-17 16:46:10

John Roff
Member
From: South Africa
Registered: 2005-10-21
Posts: 50

Re: Second Octave Tuning

Costa, I have found that undercutting the holes helps with second octave tuning. I also find that if I play a flute late at night, and then again the next morning, I can get different tuning results. Try checking your tuning at different times of day. (your breath varies in strength I think)


'Concepts create idols; only wonder grasps anything.' - Gregory of Nyssa

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#25 2007-04-17 17:54:57

costademaria
Member
From: spain, denia
Registered: 2006-12-11
Posts: 110
Website

Re: Second Octave Tuning

you can not be more right,thats what i was thinking exactly now and wondering why at night i play so well/when every body sleeps:-) may be i am more relaxed and cause its quiet and i hear better what i do and correct faster myself.


"how dear sir did you cross the flood?" "by not halting,friend,and by not straining i crossed the flood."
"but how is it,dear sir,that by not halting and by not straining you crossed the flood?"
"when i came to a standstill,friend,then i sank,but when i struggled,then i got swept away.it is in this way by not halting and by not straining i crossed the flood"

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