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#1 2007-07-09 23:51:04

sushirom
Member
Registered: 2007-07-09
Posts: 2

Okay Looking for fingerings~

Well, I was told this was a Japanese flute. And By the wholes and reading around online I thought may be a tranverse shakuhachi. So I have two questions.

Is it a side-blown shakuhachi? And by comparison it looks pretty basic, does anyone have any fingerings or anything? I'm not sure if I could use just anything to guide me, I kinda don't know what to do with it. Thanks~
Oh and at the end of that last hole it continues for about four inches.


http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p317 … 010471.jpg


:Edit: This is a big if. But if it were a side-blown shakuhachi (Which I'm not sure if they exist I've only heard about them.), it measured to be about 52CM, so I guess it would be a 1.7 Shakuhachi?...

Last edited by sushirom (2007-07-09 23:58:39)

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#2 2007-07-10 01:15:51

dstone
Member
From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: 2006-01-11
Posts: 552
Website

Re: Okay Looking for fingerings~

sushirom wrote:

I thought may be a tranverse shakuhachi. So I have two questions. ... Is it a side-blown shakuhachi?

Hi sushirom. 

I don't think the phrases side-blown shakuhachi or transverse shakuhachi make sense.  I suppose you can put those words together, but then you'd have to describe what "shakuhachi" means to you in the first place.  Shakuhachi blowing techniques and resulting sounds will not be possible in the same way with something transverse, I think.

Anyways, labels aside...  if you're just looking to compare this instrument's relative pitch intervals between holes to that of a shakuhachi, that's easy enough.  But I hope it has an additional hole we can't see in the photo on the back side... or else you're completely in the wrong neighborhood.

sushirom wrote:

does anyone have any fingerings or anything?

Googling or searching this forum will serve you up lots of fingerings.  Search for shakuhachi fingering.  Here's one.  You can figure out page two from the URL.

If your flute turns out to not be tuned like a shakuhachi, don't sweat it.  There are lots of end blown bamboo flutes complete with nodes and roots and holes in all the "right" shakuhachi places that look just like a shakuhachi that still aren't tuned like shakuhachi!

Have fun playing it no matter what it is!

-Darren.


When it is rainy, I am in the rain. When it is windy, I am in the wind.  - Mitsuo Aida

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#3 2007-07-10 08:22:03

sushirom
Member
Registered: 2007-07-09
Posts: 2

Re: Okay Looking for fingerings~

Ah thanks. I guess this site ( http://www.bambooflute.com/shakuhachi.html ) confused me a tad. I miss-read a portion where I thought he was saying he made a side blown shakuhachi where he was just saying he was using a similar cut of bamboo. But yeah, there is another hole on the back. And yeah, when I try and go through those fingerings it runs the scale in the same way. I think its pretty close. Thanks

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#4 2007-07-10 12:34:40

philipgelb
Chef, musician, teacher
From: Oakland, California
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 135
Website

Re: Okay Looking for fingerings~

sushirom wrote:

Ah thanks. I guess this site ( http://www.bambooflute.com/shakuhachi.html ) confused me a tad. I miss-read a portion where I thought he was saying he made a side blown shakuhachi where he was just saying he was using a similar cut of bamboo. But yeah, there is another hole on the back. And yeah, when I try and go through those fingerings it runs the scale in the same way. I think its pretty close. Thanks

anyone who tells you they are making a side blown shakuhachi is a fraud and trying to pull one over on you!  These are people who really have not a simple clue what this instrument is about nor do they have any respect. Usually they will surround their flutes with new age jargon. Quite amusing stuff, actually smile

The internet is loaded with fake shakuhachi, absurdly overpriced shakuhachi as well as some real flutes for real prices. You have to be really careful as even the online dealers of good instruments will often take serious advantage of uneducated and unaware clients with their stories and prices.

the shakuhachi world is a strange place, indeed (cracking up)

phil


Philip Gelb
shakuhachi player, teacher & vegetarian chef
Oakland, CA
http://philipgelb.com  http://myspace.com/philipgelb, http://myspace.com/inthemoodforfood

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#5 2007-07-11 06:56:25

Daniel Ryudo
Shihan/Kinko Ryu
From: Kochi, Japan
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 355

Re: Okay Looking for fingerings~

By accepted definition a shakuhachi is usually a vertical endblown air reed flute.  Does anyone know of any vertical flutes that are not endblown?

Last edited by Daniel Ryudo (2007-07-11 06:57:41)

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#6 2007-07-11 10:57:51

Yungflutes
Flutemaker/Performer
From: New York City
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 1061
Website

Re: Okay Looking for fingerings~

Maybe it should be reiterated that in the Chinese and Japanese languages, Shaku = foot (appoximately) and Hachi = eight.

Peace, Perry


"A hot dog is not an animal." - Jet Yung

My Blog/Website on the art of shakuhachi...and parenting.
How to make an Urban Shakuhachi (PVC)

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#7 2008-01-11 06:36:25

Vi3tcong
Member
Registered: 2008-01-11
Posts: 3

Re: Okay Looking for fingerings~

Side shakuhachi's do exist

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#8 2008-01-11 06:39:06

Vi3tcong
Member
Registered: 2008-01-11
Posts: 3

Re: Okay Looking for fingerings~

sushirom wrote:

Well, I was told this was a Japanese flute. And By the wholes and reading around online I thought may be a tranverse shakuhachi. So I have two questions.

Is it a side-blown shakuhachi? And by comparison it looks pretty basic, does anyone have any fingerings or anything? I'm not sure if I could use just anything to guide me, I kinda don't know what to do with it. Thanks~
Oh and at the end of that last hole it continues for about four inches.


http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p317 … 010471.jpg


:Edit: This is a big if. But if it were a side-blown shakuhachi (Which I'm not sure if they exist I've only heard about them.), it measured to be about 52CM, so I guess it would be a 1.7 Shakuhachi?...

Check this site out for different flutes including the side blown shakuhachi
http://www.eriktheflutemaker.com/Oriental_good.htm

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#9 2008-01-11 08:57:11

nyokai
shihan
From: Portland, ME
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 613
Website

Re: Okay Looking for fingerings~

Vi3tcong wrote:

sushirom wrote:

Well, I was told this was a Japanese flute. And By the wholes and reading around online I thought may be a tranverse shakuhachi. So I have two questions.

Is it a side-blown shakuhachi? And by comparison it looks pretty basic, does anyone have any fingerings or anything? I'm not sure if I could use just anything to guide me, I kinda don't know what to do with it. Thanks~
Oh and at the end of that last hole it continues for about four inches.


http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p317 … 010471.jpg


:Edit: This is a big if. But if it were a side-blown shakuhachi (Which I'm not sure if they exist I've only heard about them.), it measured to be about 52CM, so I guess it would be a 1.7 Shakuhachi?...

Check this site out for different flutes including the side blown shakuhachi
http://www.eriktheflutemaker.com/Oriental_good.htm

As has been said before, there's a lot of snake oil on the web. Erik the flutemaker's "Oriental flute" may be OK or it may not be -- it's hard to tell since he has heavily doctored the sound electronically (notice how when he speaks it is in a fairly flat-sounding room, but when he plays there is a ton of reverb). One thing is clear -- this is NOT a shakuhachi by even the loosest definition.

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#10 2008-01-11 09:34:32

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Okay Looking for fingerings~

Vi3tcong wrote:

Check this site out for different flutes including the side blown shakuhachi
http://www.eriktheflutemaker.com/Oriental_good.htm

He does not say it's a shakuhachi. He calls it an oriental flute and describes that it has shakuhachi tuning, which would mean that it has a minor pentatonic scale.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#11 2008-01-11 19:09:50

jumbuk
Member
From: South-eastern Australia
Registered: 2005-12-15
Posts: 85

Re: Okay Looking for fingerings~

Tairaku wrote:

Vi3tcong wrote:

Check this site out for different flutes including the side blown shakuhachi
http://www.eriktheflutemaker.com/Oriental_good.htm

He does not say it's a shakuhachi. He calls it an oriental flute and describes that it has shakuhachi tuning, which would mean that it has a minor pentatonic scale.

I have the end-blown version of one of these - I got it well before I started on the shakuhachi, when I was exploring the world of bamboo flutes for the first time, quite a few years ago.  Erik's flutes are not intended to be "real" shakuhachi, and as you say he is careful not to claim that they are.  They are fun, interesting and relatively inexpensive.

I would not recommend Erik's Oriental flute as a starter shakuhachi, because the "utaguchi" is a deep notch, like a quena.  This restricts the ability to bend pitch, which is good for quena, not so good for shakuhachi.  Oh, and the "notch" is "up-side-down", ie it's cut from the inside of the bore, not the outside.

Same goes for the side-blown version - fun, but a bit restricted for true shakuhachi technique.

Last edited by jumbuk (2008-01-11 19:11:05)


... as if nothing is happening.  And it is!

Paul Mitchell, Jumbuktu 2006

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#12 2008-01-12 18:54:09

Vi3tcong
Member
Registered: 2008-01-11
Posts: 3

Re: Okay Looking for fingerings~

Well I suppose it's time to put my foot in my mouth  -___-"   I love the sound of the shakuhachi, but I've never been interested in blowing through the end. I've always been intrigued by the side. Looks more peaceful to me if that makes any sense. In the second Kill Bill movie where David Carradene or whatever was playing that long flute... it seems really interesting to me. Does anyone know if that side blown one that Erik was using is really good or not?  Like that's the style I want to play.. but I don't understand what you mean by " it's a bit restricted for true shakuhachi techniqu? Please explain. I am a beginner and not intending to go professional in a concert or anything, but I want to be good enough to play something that everyone thinks sound so relaxing and peaceful or even if I could sit some place by myself playing for hours without feeling stupid.
Also, is it possible to learn on your own how to play? Even though it's always better to be taught by a professional, can it still be done by ear and practice? How long with practice does it usually take to become quite good? And do you know if that side blown flute and shakuhachi... since they both sound similar.. can play the same tunes the same way?  basically what I mean is.. like playing a song on a piano then playing a song on an organ the same way. same note pattern of fingering? Also do you know of any sites that show how to play?  Sorry for writing so much but I figured I'd get it all out in one sitting instead of coming back and forth asking one at a time. I've never played once in my life.. only listened. I bought a shinobue a while back and was like wtf when I tried figuring out how to play on my own. After many days of my roommates telling me to shut up... it's sitting in my dresser.

Last edited by Vi3tcong (2008-01-12 19:01:04)

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#13 2008-01-12 20:57:04

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Okay Looking for fingerings~

Vi3tcong wrote:

do you know if that side blown flute and shakuhachi... since they both sound similar.. can play the same tunes the same way?  basically what I mean is.. like playing a song on a piano then playing a song on an organ the same way. same note pattern of fingering?

Strictly speaking, note-for-note wise, it is possible to play any tune written for shakuhachi on a transverse flute that is tuned like a shakuhachi (ie, five hole, pentatonic minor).

BUT

1. It'd be very, VERY difficult (probably more difficult even than on a shakuhachi--nigh on to impossible, even).
You'd have to come up with a new set of fingerings, because many of the shakuhachi ones wouldn't apply, and

2. It wouldn't sound very much at all like a shakuhachi.

It'd be a bit easier to play said shakuhachi tunes on a transverse flute with seven holes (six for fingers, one for thumb) tuned to a minor scale.
Still would need to adapt a bunch of fingerings, but

3. It still wouldn't sound like a shakuhachi.

It's in the nature of the design of the shakuhachi that makes it sound like a shakuhachi, full stop.

Consider for a moment: Have you ever heard a side-blown flute of any kind that sounds like a shakuhachi? I'm pretty sure I haven't. Isn't it likely that, by now, someone would have come up with such a technique if if could be done?

Finally, if you looked for  a teacher to teach you shakuhachi music, it'd have to be on a shakuhachi. This is not to say for a minute that you couldn't get a transverse flute made that's tuned like a shakuhachi and have at it yourself--see what you come up with.

I have a wonderful 7-hole bamboo side-blown flute in B minor with seven holes (one for thumb, six for fingers) made by a great flute maker in Portland: Romy Benton http://romyb.com/home.html. He's not horribly expensive (but not horribly fast, either--but really good--been doing it for over 20 years, and he's a pro player). He could make one for you tuned like a shakuhachi (5-hole), or the 7-hole variant. They are beautiful, too--check out the galleries on his website. NB: I don't play shakuhachi music on it.

Romy's a good fella, too.

One more thing: Speaking for my self, it's much less 'relaxing/peaceful' for me to play a transverse flute of a given length/pitch than it is to play a shakuhachi of the same size. Absolutely no comparison. I suppose if I did it for long enough, I'd adapt, but that's not gonna happen smile

eB

Last edited by edosan (2008-01-12 21:45:12)


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#14 2008-01-13 00:16:49

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: Okay Looking for fingerings~

Vi3tcong wrote:

I've always been intrigued by the side. Looks more peaceful to me if that makes any sense.

Transverse (sideblown) flutes are much less ergonomic, ie. you're more likely to find that the discomfort detracts some from the peacefulness. 

Vi3tcong wrote:

Does anyone know if that side blown one that Erik was using is really good or not?

My guess is that it's at least OK. It's not that hard to make OK sideblown bamboo flutes. If you read Romy's blog (Romy is the guy edosan gave the website for), he mentions "hippie" bamboo flutes that are OK but can be made much better. I think the same thing happens in the shakuhachi world. 

Vi3tcong wrote:

Like that's the style I want to play.. but I don't understand what you mean by " it's a bit restricted for true shakuhachi techniqu? Please explain.

You can't bend pitches as easily with transverse flute, and you can't get those windy sounds as easily. In general, the  whole feel of the way it reacts to your breath is different. Depending on how sensitive your ears are, this is reflected in the overall sound.

Vi3tcong wrote:

I am a beginner and not intending to go professional in a concert or anything, but I want to be good enough to play something that everyone thinks sound so relaxing and peaceful or even if I could sit some place by myself playing for hours without feeling stupid.

You could do that with a transverse flute. The shakuhachi-like pentatonic tuning makes it a lot harder to play wrong notes and transverse flutes are somewhat easier to learn to get a good sound out of.

Vi3tcong wrote:

Also, is it possible to learn on your own how to play?

If you mean just to be able to get pleasant sounds out, the answer is yes for both shakuhachi and transverse flute. It would probably help to get a few tips from someone who plays though.   

Vi3tcong wrote:

Even though it's always better to be taught by a professional, can it still be done by ear and practice? How long with practice does it usually take to become quite good?

If you mean to learn written notation, music, and songs, you're best off with a teacher. How long it takes would depend on a lot of factors including how good the teacher is and how you take to learning music.

Vi3tcong wrote:

And do you know if that side blown flute and shakuhachi... since they both sound similar.. can play the same tunes the same way?  basically what I mean is.. like playing a song on a piano then playing a song on an organ the same way. same note pattern of fingering?

Umm... yes they're the same fingering. But just like organ and piano, they'll be two different instruments. Unlike the piano/organ analogy, you be able to do a lot more on a shakuhachi. You could say the same thing about organ too with the pedals and stops and everything, but you can go pretty far in other directions with a piano.


Vi3tcong wrote:

I bought a shinobue a while back and was like wtf when I tried figuring out how to play on my own. After many days of my roommates telling me to shut up... it's sitting in my dresser.

This might be the toughest hurdle, you'll need to find roomates who are supportative of your music.


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#15 2008-01-13 05:58:48

jumbuk
Member
From: South-eastern Australia
Registered: 2005-12-15
Posts: 85

Re: Okay Looking for fingerings~

Radi0gnome covers it all pretty well.

If you are new to flutes, you might like to try a Native American flute first.  The NAF is a "fipple flute" - like a recorder or tin whistle, you can get sounds immediately.  They are tuned pentatonic minor, not quite the same as shakuhachi.  It will be easier to get acceptance from your room-mates.  The NAF has it's own cultural background, and there is plenty of info available.

Most of the people on this forum (I think!) are trying to play traditional Japanese music on the shakuhachi, which means getting into the culture a bit, plus learning to read the Japanese notation and play the techniques that are peculiar to the shakuhachi.  It's a slow process - expect several years of steady application just to get to a reasonable level.  Don't want to discourage you, it's very rewarding, but it's not a casual thing to take on.


... as if nothing is happening.  And it is!

Paul Mitchell, Jumbuktu 2006

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