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#1 2007-07-21 06:38:26

pier
Member
Registered: 2007-07-19
Posts: 7

Beginner question about embrochure (open or closed?)

Hi everyone!

This is my first post at this forum, but I've been reading it for a few days though.

I just began practicing the shakuhachi one week ago... after two days of "blowing" I got a sound from it. Now after a week at least I can make it sound 90% of times.

My problem is that when I get the shakhachi to sound my embrochure is open, to say something, the air is not very focused and I use most of the air of my lungs in about 15-20 seconds. So I try to let the air flow slowly on a very focused embrochure, more closed, but I only get very very high harmonics, not the full sound I get with the other embrochure.

I happened by chance, like two times or so, to have a "closed" embrochure and get an even better sound than with the "open" embrochure, but I really don't know how to reproduce it even if I looked at myself in a mirror.

When I say "open" of course my lips are pretty closed, but I dont really know how to exlain it. I'm Spanish...

I'll appreciate any comment you can make... thank you.

Regards

Pier

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#2 2007-07-21 12:51:09

nyokai
shihan
From: Portland, ME
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 613
Website

Re: Beginner question about embrochure (open or closed?)

Hi Pier --

Welcome to the forum.

Though others may disagree with this, I think your questions are best answered in person -- or perhaps via Internet video -- by a qualified teacher. One person's useful trick may become another's bad habit. Experienced teachers have spent a lot of time figuring out how to transfer this information to students in a way that doesn't lead to problems later on.

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#3 2007-07-21 13:51:56

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Beginner question about embrochure (open or closed?)



In the meantime: You've only been blowing for a week, which is comparable to the amount of time civilization has been on
the earth (far as we know anyway...) over its entire geological history. Work on it for a month or two, then see how that question
feels...



eB


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#4 2007-07-21 16:26:38

pier
Member
Registered: 2007-07-19
Posts: 7

Re: Beginner question about embrochure (open or closed?)

Ok thanks for the opinions. Will keep on working until I found by myself then.

After writing the post I found those tips very helpful
http://www.yungflutes.com/html_pages/playing_page.html

Regards wink

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#5 2007-07-21 22:44:19

geni
Performer & Teacher
From: Boston MA
Registered: 2005-12-21
Posts: 830
Website

Re: Beginner question about embrochure (open or closed?)

try the internet lessons. Nyokai & others offer them.

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#6 2007-07-21 23:27:05

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Beginner question about embrochure (open or closed?)

Hi Pier,

Welcome to the forum. Where are you located? Perhaps there is a teacher in your area. Shakuhachi can't be learned without lessons.

Ciao,

BR


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#7 2007-07-22 06:36:03

pier
Member
Registered: 2007-07-19
Posts: 7

Re: Beginner question about embrochure (open or closed?)

Hi to all

Geni:
Thanks for the idea. Right now I'm a bit short of money. Just came back from a trip, and have another one in august... but it's a good idea anyway. wink

Tairaku:
I live in Spain, in the little island of Mallorca. Impossible to find anything related to the shakuhachi here. No teachers, no players... There a teacher at Barcelona, the only one in Spain I was able to find. But I must fly to go there so an hour would cost me about 130 euros, about 170 Us dollars.... of course I can't do that regularly.

Anyway maybe by next year I'll be moving to Vancouver and I know there's plenty of shakuhachi culture there. Players, centers, teachers, etc.

Regards

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#8 2007-07-22 10:29:50

Thorsten
Member
From: London
Registered: 2005-10-17
Posts: 29
Website

Re: Beginner question about embrochure (open or closed?)

Hi Pier,

Just thought I let you know that I am planning to be in Mallorca in September. I should mention, that I am neither a 'pro' nor a teacher, but I do play the shakuhachi for a number of years and maybe can be of help if you interested.

No exact timeline yet, but as I will be there doing some 'GPS performance' work for an exhibition at the Miró Foundation, the plan is to be in St Elms/Dragonera (7-10 days) and in Palma (5 days) before the show opens then in early October. Where are you in Mallorca ?

Let me know if that would be useful to you.

bw
Thorsten

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#9 2007-07-23 09:28:08

pier
Member
Registered: 2007-07-19
Posts: 7

Re: Beginner question about embrochure (open or closed?)

Hi Thorsten

This is great, we have to meet and go play together while seeing a Mallorca sunset. smile

I'm from Palma, but living in Bunyola right now. I have a car so location is not a problem.

I'll be at Barcelona for a conference the 29-30 of september but any other day would be ok.

"When you want something, all the universe conspires in helping you to achieve it." The alchemist - Paulo Coelho

Regards wink

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#10 2007-07-23 09:45:24

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Beginner question about embrochure (open or closed?)

Cool Pier,

I go to Spain fairly regularly, in fact I spent a couple of weeks in Sevilla and Malaga in May. There seem to be a lot of stray players in Spain who are far from the few teachers there. Next time I'll announce on the forum where and when and maybe I can do a workshop.

And if you go to Vancouver that'll be great for you, it's fast turning into a hotbed of shakuhachi activity. Alcvin Takegawa Ramos is an inspirational teacher.

Ciao,

BR


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#11 2007-07-23 13:10:20

pier
Member
Registered: 2007-07-19
Posts: 7

Re: Beginner question about embrochure (open or closed?)

Hi again

Cool idea Tairaku, just in case I dont see your post be sure to send me an e-mail if you organize that workshop.

Let me know if you need some help wink (translating texts, making some calls to find a place to do it, etc.)

Regards

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#12 2007-07-24 10:09:43

Zakarius
Member
From: Taichung, TAIWAN
Registered: 2006-04-12
Posts: 361

Re: Beginner question about embrochure (open or closed?)

Tairaku wrote:

Shakuhachi can't be learned without lessons.

I completely disagree. I have been learning the shakuhachi now for a year and have never had a lesson. Perhaps my playing would be far better than it is now had I sought out a teacher, but that's not to say I have learned nothing. I believe great progress can be made through practice & mindful study.

Zakarius


塵も積もれば山となる -- "Chiri mo tsumoreba yama to naru." -- Piled-up specks of dust become a mountain.

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#13 2007-07-24 11:19:53

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Beginner question about embrochure (open or closed?)



With respect: If you ain't been there, how can you know?

eB


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#14 2007-07-24 11:38:42

Seth
Member
From: Scarsdale, NY
Registered: 2005-10-24
Posts: 270

Re: Beginner question about embrochure (open or closed?)

Zakarius wrote:

Tairaku wrote:

Shakuhachi can't be learned without lessons.

I completely disagree. I have been learning the shakuhachi now for a year and have never had a lesson. Perhaps my playing would be far better than it is now had I sought out a teacher, but that's not to say I have learned nothing. I believe great progress can be made through practice & mindful study.

Zakarius

Yes, progress can be made on one's own - no doubt.  And tremendous effort will produce results - but I just can not imagine how somoene could play traditional honkyoku without personal instruction.  The challenge is that the notation is really only half the story, there is a whole other vital half that is only expressed verbally.

So maybe one can learn how to play basic notes well, and maybe even how to play a really simple version of some minyo songs... but real shakuhachi playing in the instrument's full tradition?  I know this isn't fair, but you really need a teacher.

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#15 2007-07-24 12:42:25

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Beginner question about embrochure (open or closed?)

Zakarius wrote:

Tairaku wrote:

Shakuhachi can't be learned without lessons.

I completely disagree. I have been learning the shakuhachi now for a year and have never had a lesson. Perhaps my playing would be far better than it is now had I sought out a teacher, but that's not to say I have learned nothing. I believe great progress can be made through practice & mindful study.

Zakarius

Well Stan Richardson taught himself by listening to recordings and he's a very fine player. But then he studied with Ronnie Seldin and a few others to get the score. There may be a few Japanese who are self taught as well. You mainly have to avoid teaching yourself bad habits you have to unlearn, such as poor posture, holding it wrong, crummy vibrato (which everyone seems to want to do), weird finger articulations and so forth. However I have played a lot of instruments (self taught) and I definitely would not have been able to learn the traditional music without lessons. There are a lot of people out there doing new age doodling who are self taught, and I suppose they are playing shakuhachi. But then the question becomes "is shakuhachi just an instrument, or is it also the music associated with that instrument"? If we buy a flamenco guitar and use it to do "Kumbaya" are we playing flamenco? No.

Good luck with your autodidacticism but please seek out a teacher. You are in Taiwan, there are plenty of people playing there. In fact somebody posted a cool Taiwanese shakuhachi forum similar to ours.

http://shaku8.tosaint.com/index.php

If I had a dollar for every student who took a lesson with me and said, "I learned more in one lesson from you than I did in the last two (or three or whatever) years trying to teach myself" I'd have..................well probably about ten dollars! But that's ten people.

For people who want to teach themselves I recommend to check out Takashi Tokuyama and Barry Weiss's book and CD. It's very clear and might be possible to teach yourself rudimentary honkyoku using that. You can get it on www.shakuhachi.com


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#16 2007-07-24 22:25:11

Zakarius
Member
From: Taichung, TAIWAN
Registered: 2006-04-12
Posts: 361

Re: Beginner question about embrochure (open or closed?)

First of all, sorry to Pier for sidetracking your post... As for those of you who responded to my comments, thanks for your suggestions. Unfortunately, I haven't met anyone in Taiwan who plays honkyoku shakuhachi, let alone teaches. <shrugs>

Zakarius


塵も積もれば山となる -- "Chiri mo tsumoreba yama to naru." -- Piled-up specks of dust become a mountain.

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#17 2007-07-25 03:30:39

Mike
Member
From: Essen, Germany
Registered: 2005-10-17
Posts: 34
Website

Re: Beginner question about embrochure (open or closed?)

Hi Pier,

I just returned from Mallorca on Saturday. Have been there with my family for a two weeks vacation. I`have been doing this for several years now and will go there again in the summer of next year for three weeks. We always stay on a private Finca between Felanitx and C'as Concos. It's a very nice and peaceful place for relaxing and playing the Shakuhachi. Where do you live on the island. Maybe we could meet next near for playing together if you would be interested.

Mike


I wish I would have found this instrument much earlier in my life. But I didn´t know that I was searching for it all those years.

http://www.myspace.com/mikeshakuhachi

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#18 2007-07-25 08:21:20

Harazda
Member
Registered: 2007-06-07
Posts: 126

Re: Beginner question about embrochure (open or closed?)

In an effort NOT to derail this thread, but in the interest of discussing this issue of teacher/no teacher, I'd like to say that there is - in my humble opinion -  MUCH to say about this.  After consideration of the various facets of the issue, I'll probably post something about it over on Outside Tradition.  I think the shakuhachi world might really benefit from taking this bull by the horns.  Has this issue come up already on another thread devoted to the topic?  If so, I'll take it up over there...

-Chris H.

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#19 2007-07-25 08:42:25

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: Beginner question about embrochure (open or closed?)

Tairaku wrote:

There are a lot of people out there doing new age doodling who are self taught, and I suppose they are playing shakuhachi. But then the question becomes "is shakuhachi just an instrument, or is it also the music associated with that instrument"? If we buy a flamenco guitar and use it to do "Kumbaya" are we playing flamenco? No.

There are people out there playing latin music and jazz on silver flute who never learned the Western classical repertoire associated with the instrument. Are they playing silver flute? Maybe the question should be "are they playing what it was intended to play?"

I can appreciate the idea that if you want to learn traditional music that the easiest route (and that still isn't all that easy) is to learn from a teacher. However, for some it may be enlightening to think about where the traditional music came from. Sometime, years ago, someone did some new-age noodling and it was written in stone to be "THE" way it should be played. Is exploring in a similar manner stupid because it's like re-inventing the wheel, or is it a way to experience what the originators of the music felt?

I'd say to seek out a teacher if you heard the traditional music and you want to play it, or if you have some kind of ego thing that you need to learn the instrument "correctly" and everyone knows that the only "correct" way of learning is from a teacher (yes, I'm being sarcastic), or if you come up upon a dead end on your own. However, if you're perfectly satisfied in what you're doing on your own, why not stick to it? I heard a recording that Zakarius  posted to the forum. It sounded fine. Maybe lacking some of the musical rhymes that traditional music has, but it certainly sounded like he was on the right track. Probably more so than some people taking lessons who are struggling to get what their teacher said they should be doing.

OTOH, there's a lot to be said for experiencing the struggle whether or not you finally acheive the goal. I just find it a shame that many who struggle with instruments of all types end up quitting just because they didn't have a teacher somewhere along the way that pointed out to them that they don't have to sound like anyone else to still have a valid musical experience.


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#20 2007-07-25 09:16:29

Harazda
Member
Registered: 2007-06-07
Posts: 126

Re: Beginner question about embrochure (open or closed?)

Right on, radiOgnome.  I'm going over to Outside Tradition to pick this back up.

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#21 2007-07-25 10:02:10

Seth
Member
From: Scarsdale, NY
Registered: 2005-10-24
Posts: 270

Re: Beginner question about embrochure (open or closed?)

(Disclaimer: I am no pro at shakuhachi in any sense of the word.)

I stand corrected from my earlier comment.

The commentors above are correct: one can learn shakuhachi, the instrument, with no teachers and, yes, one can also sound great playing shakuhachi with no instruction whatsoever.

My comment was really on learning and performing the tradition of shakuhachi music.   It is hard for me personally to divorce the traditional music from the instrument as two seperate topics because, for me, they are actually one and the same.  But that of course is a highly emotional, subjective, and arguably limited perspective.

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#22 2007-07-25 12:11:28

philipgelb
Chef, musician, teacher
From: Oakland, California
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 135
Website

Re: Beginner question about embrochure (open or closed?)

Seth wrote:

(Disclaimer: I am no pro at shakuhachi in any sense of the word.)


The commentors above are correct: one can learn shakuhachi, the instrument, with no teachers and, yes, one can also sound great playing shakuhachi with no instruction whatsoever.

are there any actual examples? The self taught players i have come across do not understand the instrument and tend to noodle around in a pentatonic scale with no understandting of color or timbre that the instrument is capable of. Unfortunately i have yet to find an exception to this.

Then there are the self taught players who say they "play in watasumi style", yet sound nothing like the virtuosity of Watasumi. Guess they are not really hearing the music smile

phil


Philip Gelb
shakuhachi player, teacher & vegetarian chef
Oakland, CA
http://philipgelb.com  http://myspace.com/philipgelb, http://myspace.com/inthemoodforfood

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#23 2007-07-26 06:47:20

Harazda
Member
Registered: 2007-06-07
Posts: 126

Re: Beginner question about embrochure (open or closed?)

Philip, are you being critical of my music?  Let me say this: it was not me who said that my music is "in the style of Watazumi."  It was Monty Levenson.  Regarding my CD 'Illuminated From Within," I have been known to say that it contains ONE PHRASE that sounds like Watazumi.  There is no way that I actually play in the style of Watazumi; there's no way that's possible... for me or you.

Also, I have to say that convoluted ways of approaching music tend to result in the creation of music which I usually tend to stay away from.  In my opinion, musicality isn't about technicality, and if a person is only listening for technicality, then perhaps that person is approaching music too much from the head, and not enough from the heart.

Speaking solely for myself, I'd rather listen to music that comes from the heart, regardless of it's lack of technical "correctness" or range.  From an experiential standpoint, regardless of its technical edge, if it's not from the heart then it's as phony as a $2 bill, in my humble opinion.

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#24 2007-07-26 06:50:26

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Beginner question about embrochure (open or closed?)

Hey Chris, why don't you set up a myspace with some mp3's of your tunes? If you set up a myspace music account you can post up to 5 songs. Then we can hear what it sounds like. It's difficult and futile to form an opinion based on verbal descriptions of music. There are some people who are more into process or intent than the actual music, but most people including myself just listen to it and enjoy.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#25 2007-07-26 07:19:55

Harazda
Member
Registered: 2007-06-07
Posts: 126

Re: Beginner question about embrochure (open or closed?)

Good morning, Tairaku.  Thank you for that suggestion; I'll consider it.  My wife's & my website - www.harazda.com - has info about my CD as well as my medical practice.  Right now, changes are being made to the site to update old information, and part of what's happening is also related to getting some of the music back up there.  Right now, I don't think there's anything there to listen to.

I think Ron Nelson put some of my sounds up on komuso.com. in the "People" section; there's not much to listen to, though.

Tairaku, the world of shakuhachi certainly contains a lot of opinions.  A friend of mine who's a leader in the Native American flute world once described the shakuhachi community as "always arguing and having fistfights over who's following the 'true' way."  He added that his Anasazi flutes are free from such entanglements; there are no laws, no rules.  Right about now, that world seems pretty appealing.

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