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#1 2007-09-08 13:24:40

BrianP
Member
From: Ocala, FL
Registered: 2006-11-03
Posts: 289
Website

Abdominal Cramps

Has anyone here ever experienced lower abdominal cramping form extended practice sessions?  It seems since I have started practicing for long periods that I am getting pains in my lower abdomen similar to the feeling you get when you are really hungry.  I was just curious if this was common or if I am straining too much on the outbreaths etc.

Thanks,

Brian


The Florida Shakuhachi Camp
http://www.floridashakuhachi.com
Brian's Shakuhachi Blog
http://gaijinkomuso.blogspot.com

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#2 2007-09-08 20:15:23

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: Abdominal Cramps

Hi, I'm not a pro but I'm a bit concerned over what you are saying. Not only have I never experienced abdominal cramps from playing any kind flute or even didjeridu where you're even more likely to do unusual things with your abs, I've never experienced abdominal cramps from being very hungry either. While it's not unreasonable that something your doing with your breathing might cause abdominal cramps, my concern is that you might have some kind of health issue going on. You might want to think about checking with a medical professional before dismissing abdominal cramps as being the result of playing shakuhachi.


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#3 2007-09-08 20:37:40

Yungflutes
Flutemaker/Performer
From: New York City
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 1061
Website

Re: Abdominal Cramps

Hi Brian, I agree with Radiognome, I would check it out with a doctor if it persists.

However, I have experienced abdominal soreness when I learned the vocal work for an experimental Greek Drama composed by Elizabeth Swados and Andrei Serban in 1997. The text was based on ancient Greek and Latin but was written into very contemporary music. It was quite percussive at times and required a lot of ab work because of the use of the diaphragm. During the rehearsal period, the entire cast experienced abdominal soreness. We were sure it was due to learning the music score.

Good luck with it.
Perry


"A hot dog is not an animal." - Jet Yung

My Blog/Website on the art of shakuhachi...and parenting.
How to make an Urban Shakuhachi (PVC)

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#4 2007-09-08 20:44:51

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Abdominal Cramps

We are all enthusiastic about shakuhachi but too much of a good thing can cause problems. Arthritis, RSS, etc. from too much practicing. Good practice is more important than long practice.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#5 2007-09-09 00:22:54

BrianP
Member
From: Ocala, FL
Registered: 2006-11-03
Posts: 289
Website

Re: Abdominal Cramps

Maybe cramps is the wrong description.  Abdominal soreness is more like it.  It isn't persistant and only occurs after lots of playing and last night I felt it after playing harp at a gig.  When I say it is like the feeling of being hungry I am referring to what it feels like after a day of fasting when you are just getting through the "hunger pangs".  It is at the muscles right under my navel from left to right.  Like I said.  As I type right now I am not in any discomfort.  I am never doubled over in pain.  I think it may be from trying to eek too much air out on longer passages and really squeezing.  If it persists for about another 2 weeks I will get it checked out but it really feels like I might be fatiguing the muscles there from playing.

Tairaku wrote:

Good practice is more important than long practice.

That is a good insight.  I am going to start applying that and shortening the sessions for a bit.  I will also work on not squeezing the air out so much at the end.  I really appreciate everyone here being so helpful and I truely appreciate the help.

Thanks,

BrianP


The Florida Shakuhachi Camp
http://www.floridashakuhachi.com
Brian's Shakuhachi Blog
http://gaijinkomuso.blogspot.com

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#6 2007-09-09 01:46:35

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: Abdominal Cramps

BrianP wrote:

Maybe cramps is the wrong description.  Abdominal soreness is more like it.  { ... }   I think it may be from trying to eek too much air out on longer passages and really squeezing. 
BrianP

Different types of breathing can cause soreness. As far as eeking too much air out, it works fine as an excercise, but by the time it gets to overworking the abs the tone quality tends to get too shakey to be useable for music. I really like Riley Lee's "Breathe" DVD for breath excercises, I could see where if you hammered at some of those excercises you could end up with sore abs, but I haven't practiced them to that point myself. One of the excercises is to squeeze as much air out as possible, but he's doing these without the instrument. One thing that's a bit counter-intuitive is that you can squeeze a lot more air out by elongating your body by lifting your chest as opposed to letting the chest collapse, that might be a bit easier on the abs too.


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#7 2007-09-09 09:34:47

Harazda
Member
Registered: 2007-06-07
Posts: 126

Re: Abdominal Cramps

...just a few other thoughts from the Chinese medical perspective... the location you speak of is the lower dantian area.  When you say "under" the navel, is it below, i.e. an inch or two down from the navel, or beneath the navel itself?  The navel itself is Ren-8, an acupuncture point that is forbidden to needle, but is treated with moxa (burning mugwort) to warm kidney energy and treat lower back issues, etc.  I often use Ren-8 on patients with non-insertion acupuncture to enrich what's known as Mingmen, which is the energy of the left and right kidneys, and which directly relates to overall vitality.

What I'd like to suggest is the possibility that what you're experiencing is qi related.  In my opinion, shakuhachi playing, but especially hotchiku playing, tonifies qi when the shen of the heart is really turned on.  Shen (yang) ascends to the heart from the right kidney, and Ling (yin) ascends to the heart from the left kidney.

To cut to the chase:  try meditating, or just doing a long gassho with good deep breaths, prior to playing.  You might even do self-Reiki on the area, too.

Martial artists and daoyin/taiji practitioners know that one musn't eat or drink too soon just prior to working out.  The resulting qi constraints can cause numerous discomforts.  Any kind of pain in the body is the stagnation of qi and/or blood.  Also, it's been my experience that navel pain may even relate to low back vertebral issues.  Keep this in mind.

If you're doing intense breathwork too soon after taking in food or drink, this may be the problem.  Consider taking this into account, and see what happens.  If there's no change, I agree with everyone else about seeing a doctor... but be careful not to end up on the AMA continous cycle Mercedes/Country Club-supporting prescription plan. 

-Harazda

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#8 2007-09-09 20:21:09

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: Abdominal Cramps

Harazda wrote:

...just a few other thoughts from the Chinese medical perspective... the location you speak of is the lower dantian area.  When you say "under" the navel, is it below, i.e. an inch or two down from the navel, or beneath the navel itself?  The navel itself is Ren-8, an acupuncture point that is forbidden to needle, ...
-Harazda

Thanks for the interesting Chinese medical perspective. But I'm still pondering this. It had escaped me about the location of the soreness, I guess as soon as I read the word "abdominal" I tuned out and immediately thought of the area just under the rib cage that I tend to feel when breathing. That's also the area that usually gets sore if you do too many crunches. However, BrianP mentioned the area under the navel. I don't have enough understanding of physiology to say for sure, but I'm inclined to think that the muscles by the navel area are a bit too low to be affected by breathing. I'd think that it would be the upper abs that control the diaphragm, and that is if the abs control the diaphragm at all. I know that lower navel area bulges out some when I fill up with air, but I doubt that my lungs go that far down. I just did a google search and found this, http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/2004-154c … 4c-ch1.pdf and it looks as if the lungs are completely contained by the rib-cage and the diaphraghm doesn't go much below. If anyone understands the physiology of breathing, I'd be interested in hearing about it. Particularly what muscles control the diaphragm because if it is the abs, then wouldn't it follow that crunches would help you breath and make you a better shakuhachi player?

P.S. Yes, the internet is a wonderful place. I found this excellent article, any wind player should give it a read: http://www.pyp.f2s.com/html/breath.htm Apparently the abs, all the way down to the pubic bone, are responsible for exhalation. By putting your fingers on them and coughing you can find that the upper ones are more active in an exhalation, but even the lower ones play some part. It doesn't specifically answer the question about whether crunches will help your breathing, although I'd thnk they would. Keep in mind though, there are a lot of voice teachers who say crunches are bad for breathing...

Last edited by radi0gnome (2007-09-09 20:53:45)


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#9 2007-09-09 22:35:03

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Abdominal Cramps

In my experience, crunchies help just about everything; breathing for sure.

Thanks for the interesting note.

eB


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#10 2007-09-09 23:41:48

dstone
Member
From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: 2006-01-11
Posts: 552
Website

Re: Abdominal Cramps

Radi0gnome and Harazda, those are some thoughtful insights.  I love this place and the breadth people bring to it.

edosan wrote:

In my experience, crunchies help just about everything; breathing for sure.

Agreed.  I *love* crunchies.  Now they've got to be good for the spirit, but actually I can't see them helping abdominal cramps much.  Can't hurt to try, though...

-Darren.


When it is rainy, I am in the rain. When it is windy, I am in the wind.  - Mitsuo Aida

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#11 2008-03-10 10:27:04

Vevolis
Member
From: Toronto, ON
Registered: 2007-12-24
Posts: 175
Website

Re: Abdominal Cramps

dstone wrote:

Radi0gnome and Harazda, those are some thoughtful insights.  I love this place and the breadth people bring to it.

edosan wrote:

In my experience, crunchies help just about everything; breathing for sure.

Agreed.  I *love* crunchies.  Now they've got to be good for the spirit, but actually I can't see them helping abdominal cramps much.  Can't hurt to try, though...

-Darren.

Good for the spirit. Bad for the teeth. Like trying to gnaw at a chalk board. (Not chalk; it's far too malleable)

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