World Shakuhachi Discussion / Go to Live Shakuhachi Chat
You are not logged in.
The English composer, Roxanna Panufnik, is going to write me a piece for ji-nashi shakuhachi and chamber choir. She would like to use some of Ikkyu's poems. Now she wants me to find the original Japanese texts, so she can use Japanese words as well.
Does anyone of the bilingual Ikkyu poem lovers have the Japanese original of these poems? They are all taken from Johns Steven's translations: Wild Ways, White Pine Press. As usual, at SOAS, my university in London, the computer says the Japanese poems are on the shelf... but the book is certainly not there... sigh!
Here are the poems from Steven's 'Wild Ways'
Crazy Cloud:
p. 24, the poems that begins with: A Crazy Cloud, out in the open,
p. 25, the poems that begins with: Forests and fields, rocks and weeds
p. 31, the poems that begins with: Crazy Cloud blown by who knows what wild wind
Autumn:
p.69, the poems that begins with: A wonderful autumn night, fresh and bright;
p.119, the poems that begins with: A Melancholy autumn wind
p. 40, the poems that begins with: No moon on the best night for moon viewing;
Love:
p. 83, the poems that begins with: Crimson cheeks, light-coloured hair, full of compassion and love
pp. 92-3, the poems that begins with: Day and night I cannot keep you out of my thoughts
p. 87, the poems that begins with: When we parted, it broke my heart
oops no page no, the poems that begins with: Even if I were a God or a Buddha
Thanks!
Kiku
Offline
Kiku,
There is a lovely book which I believe has the kanji original texts with the translations. It's been out of print for a long time (orig. publ 1987) but you probably can find it on inter-library loan,
"Ikkyu and the Crazy Cloud Anthology: A Zen Poet of Medieval Japan" (Unesco Collection of Representative Works. Japanese Series) (Hardcover)
by Ikkyu (Author), Sonja Arntzen (Author)
Best,
David
Offline
kikuday wrote:
oops no page no, the poems that begins with: Even if I were a God or a Buddha
That's part of "Day and night . . ."
I have the Stevens volume here at home, and I think I recognize the book David cites. I have seen an earlier version published at Western Washington State College in 1973. As I recall, that version was typescript with the Japanese text entered by hand. I'll try to get it and see if this edition will help.
Offline
kikuday wrote:
The English composer, Roxanna Panufnik, is going to write me a piece for ji-nashi shakuhachi and chamber choir. She would like to use some of Ikkyu's poems. Now she wants me to find the original Japanese texts, so she can use Japanese words as well.
Does anyone of the bilingual Ikkyu poem lovers have the Japanese original of these poems?
Kiku
I have the Arntzen book in hand; it reveals something that we have overlooked. Ikkyu was a scholar and was connected to the imperial court. He wrote in Chinese, so there are no original Japanese texts.
There are probably many Japanese editions available, but they will be translations, just like the English editions.
Offline
Does not totally mean that he was actually reading and writing in Chinese but that his texts are mostly based on Kanji only. The Kanji would be read in Japanese sound and on many occasions used in a Japanese context. There is also some Kanji that only exist in Japan (Modified ones). The same thing can also be said from Korea. Many scholars of the time and today can use Kanji but that does not mean that they are versed in Chinese language also altough they will be able to read 90% of most Chinese texts.
I think that what was explained previously is somehow correct but leads to some interpetations that are not totally accurate. Most priests in Japan had to read and write classical Chinese for the main reason that all sutras are in classical Chinese. The only main fact that is interesting about Ikkyu is when we get to the writitng part is that compared to many of his clolleagues, when writing poetry he chose to write most of the times only with kanji and not a mix of kanji and hiragana like what most people would use for daily communication.
Last edited by Gishin (2007-10-04 15:14:48)
Offline
I guess I don't understand this very well. Gishin, what is the difference between what people call "classical Chinese" and the kind of writing you're ascribing to Ikkyu? Sanford and other secondary sources I've read say that Ikkyu's poems, other than a few waka embedded in prose works, were all in "classical Chinese." Is this inaccurate -- are they really in some form of kanji-only Japanese?
Offline
This is quite simple. What Japanese call classical Chinese means that only Kanji are used. On many occasions when a Chinese reader will try to read some of their stuff either the Kanji used are a bit strange according to Chinese taste and rule or the ones used are the Japanese modified ones.
Here is a link from Wikipedia that explains more in details what is the true meaning of classical Chinese within the Japanese context.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanbun
What Ikkyu would have been using is jun-kanbun 純漢文 but from some of his writings altough 100% Kanji on many occasions the context is totally Japanese and the usage of some of the Kanji would seem odd for Chinese readers.
Last edited by Gishin (2007-10-05 10:11:56)
Offline
The kanbun (漢文) is read up with Japanese pronunciation, though. And it is this pronunciation I am after for Roxanna Panufnik、who wants to use some of the words in the text for the choir. Once I can locate the text, I can find the pronunciation alright (I hope!).
Offline
Did you try searching for books on Amazon.jp?
I am sure they will have some book sthat will have the orginal text with furigana to give the proper sounds.
Offline
Gishin wrote:
This is quite simple. What Japanese call classical Chinese means that only Kanji are used. On many occasions when a Chinese reader will try to read some of their stuff either the Kanji used are a bit strange according to Chinese taste and rule or the ones used are the Japanese modified ones.
Here is a link from Wikipedia that explains more in details what is the true meaning of classical Chinese within the Japanese context.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanbun
What Ikkyu would have been using is jun-kanbun 純漢文 but from some of his writings altough 100% Kanji on many occasions the context is totally Japanese and the usage of some of the Kanji would seem odd for Chinese readers.
This doesn't seem to clarify matters. The Wikipedia citation you give describes jun-kanbun as Pure/Genuine Chinese writing (so described from a Japanese perspective), using Chinese syntax and on yomi (Chinese based pronunciation).
The originals of the poems translated by Arntzen are all kanji, without any of the punctuation or annotation that would turn it into readable Japanese.
To Chinese readers, it probably would be an odd pidgin version of Chinese; Japanese readers would recognize the kanji and the concepts they represent without any of the grammatical structure needed to make it clear and effective communication.
Offline
rpowers wrote:
Gishin wrote:
This is quite simple. What Japanese call classical Chinese means that only Kanji are used. On many occasions when a Chinese reader will try to read some of their stuff either the Kanji used are a bit strange according to Chinese taste and rule or the ones used are the Japanese modified ones.
Here is a link from Wikipedia that explains more in details what is the true meaning of classical Chinese within the Japanese context.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanbun
What Ikkyu would have been using is jun-kanbun 純漢文 but from some of his writings altough 100% Kanji on many occasions the context is totally Japanese and the usage of some of the Kanji would seem odd for Chinese readers.This doesn't seem to clarify matters. The Wikipedia citation you give describes jun-kanbun as Pure/Genuine Chinese writing (so described from a Japanese perspective), using Chinese syntax and on yomi (Chinese based pronunciation).
The originals of the poems translated by Arntzen are all kanji, without any of the punctuation or annotation that would turn it into readable Japanese.
To Chinese readers, it probably would be an odd pidgin version of Chinese; Japanese readers would recognize the kanji and the concepts they represent without any of the grammatical structure needed to make it clear and effective communication.
Jun Kanbun or Kanbun does not mean that annotation are always there just means Kanji/Hanzi used in a Japanese context. The point is that what is called classical Chinese by Japanese IS NOT TRUE Chinese writing. What is misleading is the way Kanbun and JunKanbun terms were tranlsated into English as classical Chinese this is the right translation of the the term to some extent but is also misleading some people into thinking that this is true written Chinese when it is not the case. It is a Japanized form of using Chinese characters. I read some of Ikkyu's stuff and from a Chinese reading point of view many of the stuff does not make sense unless you understand Japanese culture VS Chinese usage of the same term etc...
Offline