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#1 2007-11-23 10:15:37

marilena
Member
Registered: 2007-11-23
Posts: 4

what how where.. shakuhachi

hello everybody,

this is my first post and i need your advice..

I am a newbie in shakuhachi practice and indeed i need to buy my first. Now.. I am a classical music professional, though i quit that career years ago to pursue other interests of mine. I graduated in flute at the Conservatory in italy (then played in ensambles and orchestras while graduating in physics, then found out that the two were not sustainable at the same time and quit the musical career to graduate in quantum physics).
I am now doing a PhD in Philosophy of Science in London and I will move to san diego in January as a visiting fellow at UCSD. I have the strongest commitment to finally go back to what was a very early love of mine, the shakuhachi. When in rome I wrote a dissertation on Japanese music and was auditing concerts at the japanese institute, but it is only recently, after my training as a gestalt counselor and my practice in zen meditation that i finally found the resolution to let this early passion blossom, and it is an important decision for me.
SO i need an instrument. I am still on a limited student budget but at the same time, I feel I am very serious about it so don't want to buy a mediocre flute. SO i would love to receive your advice as to what is the best middle for my case. it took me a year to find my silver flute (japanese hand-made) before the diploma concert, to find the one that felt like mine, that had the sound i wanted so i take it seriously. And still I can't afford to pay the price i payed for the western flute. Is a 1000 dollars a ridicolous budget to have for a nice one? should I raise to 2000 or is that not enough still? All this, considering that I haven't even started yet may sound very premature, but i do take into high consideration the uniqueness of an instrument and in the case of the shakuhachi it will have important spiritual import as well. Unless you say it's for some reason better to buy initially a crappy one and move only later to a decent one.. I like the idea of starting with one that feels like mine and becomes more and more mine with time.

thanks a lot to whoever will find the time to advise me

baci

marilena


ps. I have a friend going to japan soon and i thought I could ask her to bring me back one from there.. what do you say? is it worthy or after all not even convenient in our globalized world? smile

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#2 2007-11-23 10:27:38

amokrun
Member
From: Finland
Registered: 2006-08-08
Posts: 413

Re: what how where.. shakuhachi

Disclaimer: I'm not a pro.

marilena wrote:

SO i would love to receive your advice as to what is the best middle for my case. it took me a year to find my silver flute (japanese hand-made) before the diploma concert, to find the one that felt like mine, that had the sound i wanted so i take it seriously. And still I can't afford to pay the price i payed for the western flute. Is a 1000 dollars a ridicolous budget to have for a nice one? should I raise to 2000 or is that not enough still?

Here's a good advice on getting a good flute. First find a teacher and ask his help. Many teachers know people who know people who have lots of flutes for sale. Odds are that he can get you a stack of flutes to try and you can then decide which one works for you. This is much more likely to get you a good flute than just buying something expensive. Besides, just because it's expensive doesn't mean that it works for you. I've tried several insanely expensive flutes that I didn't like. You'll want to be able to select from as many flutes as possible. If for any reason that doesn't work out you could contact someone who sells flutes and is willing to let you test several flutes before buying them. We have several people here on these forums who might be able to help you with that.

Your teacher should be able to help you with prices. You might find something great for cheap or you might end up paying a lot. It really depends on luck for the most part but having someone who knows what they are talking about helps considerably. In the long run I'm sure that you'll save a lot of money by getting someone to help you on this. Besides, you'll also ensure that the flute you get is good for the type of practice you'll plan to do.

marilena wrote:

I have a friend going to japan soon and i thought I could ask her to bring me back one from there.. what do you say? is it worthy or after all not even convenient in our globalized world? smile

Problem here is, you won't know if what you are getting is going to work for you. Sure, if you get a bargain and can afford to get several it can't hurt. However, if you are looking for that special flute you'll most likely are better off getting several flutes and trying them out.

Good luck on getting a good flute. Don't feel bad if you end up changing at some point though. I know that my teacher changed to a new flute not so long ago after all those years. You can always sell the old one to finance a new one if you feel like it at some point.

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#3 2007-11-23 11:31:14

JanF
Member
From: Odense, Denmark
Registered: 2007-08-13
Posts: 19

Re: what how where.. shakuhachi

Hallo Marilena.
I abselutely agree with Amokrun.
Since you are an experienced musician it is crucial that you can try a lot of instruments so that you can choose the right one.
My teacher Kiku Day is a skilled Shakuhachi player. She has a lot of contacts and  is in London every month (4 or 5 days).
Why not contact her for help and advice ?
Go to her web site or mail to her: kiku@kikuday.com

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#4 2007-11-23 15:15:56

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: what how where.. shakuhachi

Hi Marilena,

Welcome to the forum.

There is a wonderful shakuhachi person at UCSD, Bruce Jones, who runs the shakuhachi mailing list. http://communication.ucsd.edu/shaku/

It is possible to get a musically sound shakuhachi for around $100. But it is made of plastic.

If you want bamboo you will still be able to find a decent one for $500-1000 but you won't be able to do that by yourself, you will need the input of a good player.

Regards,

BR


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#5 2007-11-23 15:46:33

marek
Member
From: Czech Republic
Registered: 2007-03-02
Posts: 189
Website

Re: what how where.. shakuhachi

Tairaku wrote:

If you want bamboo you will still be able to find a decent one for $500-1000 but you won't be able to do that by yourself, you will need the input of a good player.

Hi,

I definately agree with Tairaku:
I am not a pro, but I play shakuhachi for some time with reasonable progress. Nevertheless, I do not feel I could point out a remarkably good instrument among mediocre. There are some flutes I can play more easily, but that has nothing to do with them being good or bad. For example, when I got my new flute this Summer chosen by Christopher Blasdel I could hardly play it, yet I could play very comfortably play my teachers flute. These days, after couple of months, Im having good time with my new flute.

It is important to have someone you trust on your side when looking for a flute.

Cheers,

Marek


In passionate silence, the sound is what I'm after.

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#6 2007-11-23 19:14:21

marilena
Member
Registered: 2007-11-23
Posts: 4

Re: what how where.. shakuhachi

thanks everybody for these replies smile
Yes I agree with you all. Of course I wouldn't have let my friend just choose one in Japan. (But yes, of course I agree that even consulting at distance an expert and buying it for her to pick it up is not even close to the possibility of trying many before purchasing.) I was mainly interested in whether or not the japanese origin of a modern shakuhachi is of most importance compared to a european/american craftship. I ended up with an expensive japanese silver flute following the debate on that, but for transverse flutes the issue of the best crafts is surely different so I was curious, as i expect tradition to bear a larger legacy in this case.
yes yes, I will look for someone to guide me into it in person, it is surely the best thing. You have definitely convinced me smile And at this point i think it is best to do that in San Diego as i am going to italy soon. I will try to keep my impatience under control. The urge of starting has followed an almost revelation so I am feeling very childish right now, I would love to start this minute!
I am getting in contact with Bruce Jones (how great he is at UCSD), kiku day if there's time before me leaving London, Mary Lu Brandwein who teaches in San Diego, David Sawyer for flutes and guidance.. thank you for the references, and thanks to those who emailed me, like David, edosan and Jason.

thanks again and feel free to add more comments as what i really wanted is just to get to know more about the first-hand experiences of gaijin and non-so musicians (especially if anybody is in the california area , or in London or in Rome). each instrument is a whole self contained universe and I thank you for welcoming me into yours.

baci
marilena

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#7 2007-11-23 19:50:40

amokrun
Member
From: Finland
Registered: 2006-08-08
Posts: 413

Re: what how where.. shakuhachi

marilena wrote:

I was mainly interested in whether or not the japanese origin of a modern shakuhachi is of most importance compared to a european/american craftship. I ended up with an expensive japanese silver flute following the debate on that, but for transverse flutes the issue of the best crafts is surely different so I was curious, as i expect tradition to bear a larger legacy in this case.

You'll no doubt find people who would never touch something not made in Japan back when swords were part of the formal attire. For every such person you'll find someone who finds that modern flutes are the way to go. Finally, for each person who belongs to those categories you'll find two people who don't care as long as the instrument works. Besides, these categories tend to overlap and you could find a modern flute that plays more like an old one.

No doubt you'll eventually find what you like the most. Best advice I can give is to try out everything that you can get your hands on. It may, however, be hard to spot the differences early on. It might not be a bad idea to shop for a less expensive flute at first and eventually start looking for the one that really fits you when you have the skill needed to tell. When I started, all the flutes felt like bad flutes to me. Of course, we all know whose fault that was...

... ahem. Anyway, odds are that a quick chat with a teacher may give you great pointers that will make your life much easier. Keep in mind that it's a long road where some good planning early on will pay for itself many times over.

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#8 2007-11-24 10:22:30

marilena
Member
Registered: 2007-11-23
Posts: 4

Re: what how where.. shakuhachi

I was thinking that it is probably best to humbly start with just a Yuu one , so I can get hold of one immediately and use it for study and travel so i also have time to find , through an expert, a good deal on a good one in the next months.. when i will actually , hopefully, have a teacher around the San Diego area.. cause i doubt i can get the right one for me soon, or that i will be remotely able to gauge its adequacy to my internalised sound request, due to my actual inability. A teacher could do that for me, but for a more personal spiritual attachment it's not ideal. and no point in spending much for one that is just transitory.. just my morning thoughts.
by the way this forum is fantastic, what a great community you are! sooooo far away from the classical community I ran away from.. but maybe that was me.

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#9 2007-11-24 10:36:23

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: what how where.. shakuhachi

marilena wrote:

I was thinking that it is probably best to humbly start with just a Yuu one...

That's a fine idea; it'll give you something that is a known quantity to cut your teeth on, as you bend toward your 'internalized sound
request', grail for us all.... smile

eB


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#10 2007-11-24 16:03:09

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: what how where.. shakuhachi

The Yuu is a good thing for any shakuhachi player to own because even when you outgrow it as your main instrument in favor of bamboo you can use it as a spare and travel flute. I use it in the sauna, car, beach and other places you wouldn't take your bamboo. PVC is also good for these purposes.

Now we need someone to come up with something similar to the Yuu but in a longer and wider version.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#11 2007-11-24 19:29:12

geni
Performer & Teacher
From: Boston MA
Registered: 2005-12-21
Posts: 830
Website

Re: what how where.. shakuhachi

CarbonFiber shakuhachi?

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#12 2007-11-24 19:38:28

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: what how where.. shakuhachi

geni wrote:

CarbonFiber shakuhachi?

Not a bad idea. They make replicas of old horns (cornetto, serpent, etc.) out of that material.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#13 2007-11-24 23:18:40

amokrun
Member
From: Finland
Registered: 2006-08-08
Posts: 413

Re: what how where.. shakuhachi

Tairaku wrote:

Now we need someone to come up with something similar to the Yuu but in a longer and wider version.

What I'd really like to see is a service to which you can send any flute of any size and they send you back the flute and a plastic replica of it. I'm not sure about the rest of you but at least for me it takes a while to get used to any given flute. Right now my Yuu gets the most play and thus I generally play it much better than anything else. Trying another 1.8 flute which is thinner or thicker at the blowing end tends to make my playing flat/sharp for a moment until I adjust to the new position. Having that one perfect flute and then a nearly identical copy of it would mean that I could practice on the "same" flute everywhere without risking the real thing in places that are less than ideal for a shakuhachi. Although the plastic copy might not sound the same it would at the very least have the same dimensions and the skills you learn while playing the plastic copy would translate directly to playing the bamboo flute. There are all sorts of possibilities like having two people play the "same" instrument at the same time making it possible to teach someone with an instrument of any size or tuning even if it doesn't go along well with whatever flute the teacher has.

Not an economically sound business model, I'm sure, but it still makes for a nice idea.

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#14 2007-11-25 02:06:31

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: what how where.. shakuhachi



The road to hell is paved with nice ideas.... smile



eB


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#15 2007-11-26 08:50:38

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: what how where.. shakuhachi

Tairaku wrote:

Hi Marilena,

Welcome to the forum.

There is a wonderful shakuhachi person at UCSD, Bruce Jones, who runs the shakuhachi mailing list. http://communication.ucsd.edu/shaku/

It is possible to get a musically sound shakuhachi for around $100. But it is made of plastic.

If you want bamboo you will still be able to find a decent one for $500-1000 but you won't be able to do that by yourself, you will need the input of a good player.

Regards,

BR

Does this mean that a Yuu plays as good as a $500-$1000 instrument? I've been trying to get this question answered for a while. Even if I got one to try and see for myself, my skill level isn't high enough make a judgement. Besides, I've never spent much time with any instruments except the ones I own, and I've never paid more than $125, I simply couldn't make a comparison.


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#16 2007-11-26 09:32:22

geni
Performer & Teacher
From: Boston MA
Registered: 2005-12-21
Posts: 830
Website

Re: what how where.. shakuhachi

i think so.It plays good as a $500 instrument.

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#17 2007-11-27 02:39:56

Jeff Cairns
teacher, performer,promoter of shakuhachi
From: Kumamoto, Japan
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 517
Website

Re: what how where.. shakuhachi

radi0gnome wrote:

Does this mean that a Yuu plays as good as a $500-$1000 instrument?

This seems to be a continuing question that to my mind hasn't found a satisfactory answer yet.  And it's questionable that it honestly can but I'll give it a stab. 
The price put on an instrument reflects the investments of the maker which include time, skill, considerations for the market, uniqueness, materials and the processes involved in bringing them to the point of a finished product, as well as the inherent qualities of the instrument which include many aspects such as playability, aesthetic quality, balance, tone color etc.  Whether a traditionally made, bamboo instrument or a plastic replica, these same parameters are taken into consideration when it comes time to put a price on the item.  The makers of the Yuu undoubtedly thought that they were starting with something that was at least playable and in tune.   The Yuu is relatively inexpensive which probably means that the maker thought it couldn't garner the price that a traditionally made bamboo model could because it lacks many if not most of the investments that are inherent in the traditional processes which inevitably tack cost onto the finished items price.  Without a doubt, there is a part of a real person in every handmade instrument; something lacking in the act of mass production. 
Therefore the question you pose confuses issues by suggesting that cost only reflects playability.  It's at best a very misleading question. The pricing of a mass produced instrument likely takes into consideration the general cost of what it is trying to replicate and then puts itself into relative place with a considerably reduced price from the authentic model because the manufacturer is aware that it lacks much of what the authentic model has.     There are, however, standards that can be applied to any things that fall into the same general catagory (see above 'investments').  One would do best to make comparative judgments by those standards and not something as unpredictable as cost.  In that way, you might end up with something that pleases you very much.
Happy playing
Jeff


shakuhachi flute
I step out into the wind
with holes in my bones

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#18 2007-11-27 04:19:54

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: what how where.. shakuhachi

I think in the case of the Yuu it is best to buy it as a cheap plastic flute and then be pleased with how well it plays and sounds rather than to buy it as a replacement for a quality hand made bamboo shakuhachi. That perspective will give the best results.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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