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#1 2007-11-29 14:30:28

dreamofnobody
Member
From: Russia, Krasnodar
Registered: 2007-01-26
Posts: 50

Conically widening the hole wall

Hi everybody.

My question is for Ken LaCosse and it is about ‘how to make shakuhachi’.

Ken you wrote there:
“Conically widening the hole wall as it approaches the bore will improve
the higher octave tone.”

What does it means “conically widening the hole”? May be some simple painting will be helpful.

What does it means ‘improve the tone’? Did you mean it sharpens or flattens kan note or some another thing?

Thank’s.


flutemakerlab@gmail.com

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#2 2007-11-29 14:57:02

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
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Re: Conically widening the hole wall

That was a misspelling. He meant "Comically widening the hole wall". He does that by working and drilling when he's tanked up on about 5 Bombay Sapphire martinis! wink


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

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#3 2007-11-29 16:50:38

Mujitsu
Administrator/Flutemaker
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-05
Posts: 885
Website

Re: Conically widening the hole wall

Tairaku wrote:

That was a misspelling. He meant "Comically widening the hole wall". He does that by working and drilling when he's tanked up on about 5 Bombay Sapphire martinis! wink

Dude, easy with the trade secrets!! cool

KL

dreamofnobody wrote:

What does it means “conically widening the hole”? May be some simple painting will be helpful.
What does it means ‘improve the tone’? Did you mean it sharpens or flattens kan note or some another thing?

Dream,

By conically widening the hole I mean "undercutting" like this:

http://www.mujitsu.com/images/undercutbevel.jpg

Undercutting will sharpen the pitch of both otsu and kan. By improving the tone I mean it will give the tone more presence, power, volume and ease of playing.

Hope this helps.

Ken

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#4 2007-11-30 01:33:23

dreamofnobody
Member
From: Russia, Krasnodar
Registered: 2007-01-26
Posts: 50

Re: Conically widening the hole wall

Great thank's Ken. It is all clear now. smile
That is discovery for me.

Just one question. How much 'bore' diameter of a hole differs from 'top' diameter? It is 1mm or more? There can be different wall thickness so this difference can be less(for thin wall - 4 mm - non root bamboo) or more(6-12mm - root end pieces). May be we can talk about angles. I mean if we imagine cylindrical hole and conical hole (and they have same center point) then it will be the angle between their surfaces.

Last edited by dreamofnobody (2007-11-30 03:43:04)


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#5 2007-11-30 10:59:40

Mujitsu
Administrator/Flutemaker
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-05
Posts: 885
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Re: Conically widening the hole wall

dreamofnobody wrote:

How much 'bore' diameter of a hole differs from 'top' diameter? It is 1mm or more?

I would say it would be at least 1mm or more. I let my ears dictate how severe the undercut needs to be. If you prefer an inward tone, a very slight angle may be sufficient. If you like more outward presence, larger holes and more undercut will help. I prefer to undercut as much as I possibly can on wide bore shakuhachi. Thicker walls often benefit from a more severe undercut. For example, the first hole usually has the thickest chimney. (space between top of hole and bore) So, sometimes it makes sense to undercut this hole more. Also, the particular piece of bamboo may suggest the degree of angle to use. What does it want to sound like? If particular notes are weak, they can sometimes benefit form more undercutting.

Undercutting also raises the pitch so you have to be aware of that as you are working. It also changes the volume (space) in the bore. On thinner bore shakuhachi, that can be an issue.

I think it's really a matter of your preference. I tend to undercut more now than I did on earlier flutes because I enjoy the sound. But, that is just my preference.

One way to figure out what you like is to use different degrees of undercutting on different flutes. See what you prefer. You may find that your preference changes according to the peculiarities of each flute.

I hope this isn't too confusing!

Ken

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#6 2007-11-30 12:01:18

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Conically widening the hole wall



Just confusing enough!  smile



eB


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#7 2007-11-30 15:32:26

dreamofnobody
Member
From: Russia, Krasnodar
Registered: 2007-01-26
Posts: 50

Re: Conically widening the hole wall

It’s not confusing a bit. Thank’s Ken your explanations are great.
This thing needs self experience to figure it out like everything in shakuhachi. But it will be more sensible motion with this guides that I have now.


flutemakerlab@gmail.com

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#8 2007-12-02 09:01:36

Zakarius
Member
From: Taichung, TAIWAN
Registered: 2006-04-12
Posts: 361

Re: Conically widening the hole wall

On a similar (albeit slightly off track) note, do any of you makers bevel the top of the hole itself?

Zak


塵も積もれば山となる -- "Chiri mo tsumoreba yama to naru." -- Piled-up specks of dust become a mountain.

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#9 2007-12-02 09:45:32

brewerpaul
Member
Registered: 2007-11-27
Posts: 3
Website

Re: Conically widening the hole wall

Ken-- I'm the guy who just emailed you about a partially finished shakuhachi that I got from you a couple of years ago that needs work, and you may have just given me the solution!

The low octave on my shakuhachi is great, but all of the notes in the second octave are VERY flat. The top two notes are nearly impossible to play (I'm pretty sure this is not just my lack of technique, since I can easily play a full two octaves on my homemade PVC shakuhachi).

What do you use to undercut the holes?  I actually do this on my wooden pennywhistles using a modified pocket knife blade.  The blade has been ground down to a mere sliver of a thing tapering to a very sharp point.  The cross section has a bit of a belly to it: I can rest that belly on the edge of the hole and then roll the sharp edge down to barely kiss the wood, allowing me to take off very thin controlled slices.

I'd assume I should start undercutting with the bottom hole, work on that one until the second octave speaks the way I want it to, then move North?  Do you undercut the same amounts on all parts of the circumference of the hole? I know recorder makers sometimes undercut different parts of the hole, but I forget the reasons.


Blow another type of flute? www.busmanwhistles.com

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#10 2007-12-02 12:52:34

Mujitsu
Administrator/Flutemaker
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-05
Posts: 885
Website

Re: Conically widening the hole wall

Zakarius wrote:

On a similar (albeit slightly off track) note, do any of you makers bevel the top of the hole itself?

Zak

Zak,

I like to slightly bevel the top of the holes. I think it makes it smoother moving from note to note.

brewerpaul wrote:

Ken-- I'm the guy who just emailed you about a partially finished shakuhachi that I got from you a couple of years ago that needs work, and you may have just given me the solution!

The low octave on my shakuhachi is great, but all of the notes in the second octave are VERY flat. The top two notes are nearly impossible to play (I'm pretty sure this is not just my lack of technique, since I can easily play a full two octaves on my homemade PVC shakuhachi).

What do you use to undercut the holes?  I actually do this on my wooden pennywhistles using a modified pocket knife blade.  The blade has been ground down to a mere sliver of a thing tapering to a very sharp point.  The cross section has a bit of a belly to it: I can rest that belly on the edge of the hole and then roll the sharp edge down to barely kiss the wood, allowing me to take off very thin controlled slices.

I'd assume I should start undercutting with the bottom hole, work on that one until the second octave speaks the way I want it to, then move North?  Do you undercut the same amounts on all parts of the circumference of the hole? I know recorder makers sometimes undercut different parts of the hole, but I forget the reasons.

Paul,

Undercutting can help the upper second register play easier. It will also sharpen the pitch of both otsu and kan. So, it may not help the tuning discrepancy between the octaves. That suggests that some bore work is required. I use a dremel sanding disc to initially undercut the holes. I like to start where I think it needs it the most and do a little bit at a time, balancing back and forth as I go. Undercutting all around the hole will give you more tone presence. Undercutting on the root side will sharpen the pitch a little. (It won't flatten the pitch!) Undercutting on the blowing edge side will sharpen the pitch more.

If kan is uniformly flat, it suggests that one-half of the bore is too big or too small depending on how you look at it. Place a chopstick in half the bore and test blow. Try the other half too. If you have a tuner you'll see a big difference in pitch. If it evens out the pitch you can either fill one end or remove from the other end.

Good luck!

Ken

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