Mujitsu and Tairaku's Shakuhachi BBQ

Edosan, to Kaizan it would feel like plastic.  I should have been clearer; the “feel” is more about the tactile aesthetics, and then the sound...  Let’s be generous.  If 20% of the sound depends on the flute material and bore, then your preference is bamboo?   If you live further than the moon, are you closer to the finger or beyond the pale?  Is Ichijo your most-played flute?  Some high end flutes are much harder to play than others for the same master player.  Why?  I wholeheartedly agree that Nelson Zink is a very good thinker, organizer and presenter.  I would imagine he can ably play the shakuhachi, too?

Domo, Gould sensei.  You so often say the right thing at the right time, and with a wry sense of humor.

Thank you, Perry sensei, for all the interesting perspectives of craftsmanship and intuition.

So practically speaking, the great-sounding flute would be the adept Zen player.  And for a player to become adept, it seems most teachers eventually endorse or use bamboo in the end?  Still, can’t wait to get the Zink!

Here’s the Zink quote on frying bamboo.  Is this the method that smells like a ham and cheese sandwich?  Could Tabasco be added for a spicier aroma?  Would hot sauce improve the tonality?  Or even be a good mold preventative?
“French Fried
For the adventurous, there's an intriguing wood treatment which bypasses most of the traditional bamboo drying/treatment processes and that's to french-fry the green culm in hot non-catalyzed tung oil. Cut the culm and drill out the nodes. Heat a tube of oil to about 350 F. Introduce the green culm. When all boiling and other activity ceases cut the heat and allow the oil to cool with the culm submerged.
Here's what happens: All moisture is expelled as it's turned into steam and escapes as bubbles. All lignin in the wood is hardened as the oil temperature is above its hardening point. All the surface waxes will be melted and removed. During the cool-down period any air which was greatly expanded at 350 F. contracts and atmospheric pressure drives the oil into the wood. Wipe all excess oil from your culm and submit to the standard 3 month drying period.
The result will be bamboo which has had it's starches and sugars stabilized, all moisture removed and be thoroughly impregnated with hardened linoxyn. The wood will be markedly hardened and strengthened--being waterproof, dent proof, etc. The modulus of elasticity will drop considerably and the material will become even more rigid and 'musical'. The major component of a Stradivarius violin is the treated wood of the top plate. It's acoustical properties are what we recognize as exceptional sound. Once the culm has cured, craft a flute in your usual manner.”
And one more amazing Zink tidbit about bamboo:  “Contrary to common intuition, bamboo is a very dense wood. It's density runs 2 to 3 times that of pine and usually is more dense than oak. On density alone bamboo would be listed well up in the hardwoods--above teak, mahogany, maple, walnut, oak and ash. Some bamboo will exceed ebony and lignumvitae in density. In general, bamboo has about the same density as hickory. Density is the single most important indicator of strength in wood and may, therefore, predict such characteristics as hardness, ease of machining, and resistance to penetration. Dense woods generally shrink and swell more and usually present greater problems in drying.”

Seth wrote:

eB- Yes- 80% of the sound is the quality of the player.  No doubt.  But that final 20% can be quite interesting to ponder.   And I have to say this forum is an odd place for people to express frustration with overly esoteric and self-indulgent intellectual musings.  For Buddha's sake - this is a shakuhachi discussion group!   Most anyone who has the patience and required masochism to study an obscure ancient instrument is generally going to love overly esoteric self-indulgent intellectual musings.  This kinda of just comes with the territory.

Granted, but here we often get into 'angels dancing on the head of a pin' territory, when a moment of thought and reflection will usually answer one's own question.

For Buddha's sake.

Last edited by edosan (2008-01-21 11:08:44)

Well, I thought there was a well defined question discussed in this thread:

"does the material influence the sound of a flute or does it not".

I.e.: if I took (I'll never do!) my favourite bamboo shakuhachi and cut it in half to make an exact plastic copy, will I get (assuming I keep the geometry) an equally well sounding flute that I can without fear take out in any weather?

I don't think so, but not everybody seems to share this opinion.

Cheers, udo.

Seth wrote:

One other response to the school of "it's all about the player and the rest is irrelevant" school of thought:   I actually think that everytime a traditional shakuhachi piece is performed there are at least four people present in the room:

1) The player
2) The maker of the shakuhachi
3) The author(s) of the song
4) The player's teacher

Don't forget the acoustics of the room itself. Also don't forget the audience, I don't think there's any performer that will say that the audience doesn't make a difference.

I must say that I have very little knowledge of how instruments like this operate. What bothers me about the idea that only empty space counts is that it doesn't consider the fact that the flute vibrates when you blow at all. At really high pitches it becomes increasingly difficult to tell flutes apart. Yuu sounds about the same as my other flutes when you push it to middle part of Dai Kan. On the other hand, Otsu no Ro sounds very different on every flute I've played. It is trivial to tell between my current flute and a Yuu from just blowing Ro for a bit in different ways. The other bamboo and non-bamboo flutes I've tried all have a distinct Ro. Sometimes it is booming and rough, sometimes it's closer to how the rest of the notes sound. Sometimes there are clearly other sounds in the background, sometimes it's very pure and deep sound. These differences start to get more and more fuzzy as you go up in pitch.

It makes me wonder if vibrations in the flute cause differences in the sound depending on what the flute is made of and thus how it vibrates. I would assume that especially in the low end of pitches the vibrations would be strong enough to momentarily change the bore size by a tiny fraction which could be enough to cause changes in the sound that ultimately lead to every flute having its own voice. This kind of logic doesn't really conflict with the idea that only empty space matters because the empty space would ultimately be the thing that makes the difference. The only thing is, it keeps changing.

If that was true, making an exact copy of a flute would produce a similar flute that most likely plays roughly the same but which has differences in tone color because it vibrates differently and thus doesn't alter the size of the bore in the same way.

Tairaku wrote:

Supposedly the Yuu is based upon an actual high quality bamboo shakuhachi but it doesn't sound quite the same. Or maybe people think it does, I don't know.

Yes, but since the bore at the root end of the Yuu is off-center it's obvious that the casting is only cosmetic and the bore was made straight through. It does not replicate the bore of the instrument it was cast from exactly.

Recently had a discussion about the YUU with Neil at Naljor Creations (shakuhachiyuu.com); my understanding is the YUU bore is cast. Even though the foot hole is not centered the bore is not straight. Also, I believe the finger holes are hand drilled and undercut and the utaguchi hand-shaped. Now, looking into the bore (this is a brand new YUU) it is very clear that the lower half had some work done to teak the sound as the lower half exhibits some very fine sanding marks while the upper half is glossy smooth. I've had a number of YUU or the years and each one is different; so, I assume a craftsman is finishing each YUU as it comes out of the mold.

Just thought I'd throw this out there.

radi0gnome wrote:

This doesn't make sense, the hole should be close to centered.

I have a bamboo shaku-roku which is nearly straight but the bore is very much not centered at the root.  So, I don't think it is proof that the Yuu's bore can't be a close copy of a high quality bamboo instrument.

udo.jeromin wrote:

radi0gnome wrote:

However, the theory could be tested much more easily by using the center part of a Levenson cast bore instrument and putting plastic around it. So what you'd essentially have is a Levenson cast bore shakuhachi made out of plastic. If it's true that material doesn't matter it should sound the same as his bamboo cast bore instruments.

I agree: this would be a most interesting experiment if Monty's technology would indeed allow to make a true plastic or stone copy of a bamboo instrument.

It wouldn't make a plastic copy of a bamboo instrument, but it would replicate the bore of one of Monty's instruments. Monty's instruments turn out to being bamboo around a synthetic material tube (similar to a jiari flute). What I was suggesting was to take that tube, remove the surrounding bamboo, and replace the bamboo  with plastic. It could then be compared with another bamboo Levenson cast-bore flute that was of the same original quality to see how much the sound changed. 

This experiment wouldn't put the issue to sleep entirely because even if the sound was identical, you could always argue that with a jinashi flute it might not be. But it's so much more difficult to replicate a jinashi instrument in plastic that it's a good first step. And if the sound happened to be different, you could assume it would be different in a jinashi too.

udo.jeromin wrote:

And, no, I didn't just want to know whether you beleived the theory enough to slaughter your instrument --- I just meant to phrase the question as pictorially as possible.  Sorry, I didn't mean to be mean.

I accept the apology, but I didn't interpret your post as being mean so it wasn't really necessary.

radi0gnome wrote:

udo.jeromin wrote:

I agree: this would be a most interesting experiment if Monty's technology would indeed allow to make a true plastic or stone copy of a bamboo instrument.

It wouldn't make a plastic copy of a bamboo instrument, but it would replicate the bore of one of Monty's instruments. Monty's instruments turn out to being bamboo around a synthetic material tube (similar to a jiari flute). What I was suggesting was to take that tube, remove the surrounding bamboo, and replace the bamboo  with plastic. It could then be compared with another bamboo Levenson cast-bore flute that was of the same original quality to see how much the sound changed.

This experiment wouldn't put the issue to sleep entirely because even if the sound was identical, you could always argue that with a jinashi flute it might not be. But it's so much more difficult to replicate a jinashi instrument in plastic that it's a good first step. And if the sound happened to be different, you could assume it would be different in a jinashi too.

My expectation would be that the sound would turn out different.  Hence I would aim for two instruments of different materials but exact copies of each other from the geometric point of view.

radi0gnome wrote:

I accept the apology, but I didn't interpret your post as being mean so it wasn't really necessary.

Thanks.  I try not to offend but sometimes I am not sure (for language reasons and, of course, we don't know each other very well on the forum so it is easy to punch someone on the nose without intending to do so).

Cheers, udo.

edosan wrote:

radi0gnome wrote:

Thanks, I guess this information helps, but that off-center hole still needs more explaination. The most curvey piece of bamboo I've see has an off-center hole but not nearly as much off-center as the picture of the Yuu here: http://www.shakuhachiyuu.com/shakyuu.htm

There is no particular reason to cast a curved bore into the plastic--what's required is that the bore have the correct shape, or profile--and it's much easier to cast a straighter bore into the Yuu, and this is likely what's being done, thus, the off-center location of the hole at the 'root' end.

Yes, but the idea here is that the Yuu is supposed to be a casting of a fine shakuhachi and therefore would help in determining if it's the material or dimensions that matter. I'm questioning how accurate of a casting it is because the hole is way off-center. Some are saying that they were told that the off-center hole was cast, and others are supporting that by saying that some shakuhachi have very off-center holes. I'm still skeptical.

It's true that it doesn't have to be curved for it to play well, but to support or shoot down the theory that the material the flute is made of doesn't affect the sound you've got to have an exact casting of the original instrument (or at least of the bore). If Yuu isn't an exact casting, and it looks like it's not and the most important part, the bore, is the part that looks wrong, you can't use the Yuu to help decide if material matters or not.

I doubt the Yuu is a cast of an actual shakuhachi in terms of the exterior shape. But maybe the bore is. The fact that it needs hand finishing just proves that shakuhachi is more complicated than something like a recorder.

I had an interesting experience recently which sheds light on both the "material counts" and "it's the player" arguments. I got together with a shakuhachi player in Sydney who studies with Riley and Kakizakai. In order to play together we found flutes which matched "G" pitch. He had a very thin ji ari Miura Ryuho (favored maker of the Yokoyama gang) and I was using a massive wide bore ji nashi from Gudo Ishibashi. When he heard my tone he remarked that it was totally different than what he was used to and that it sounded much more like Watazumi's recordings (I assume he meant the sound, not the playing). And that there was a whole other level of sub harmonics there which is not in thinner flutes. And that the Ryuho has more of a focused sound. So the style and size of flutes matters. But then when I blew his 2.7 he also said that he was surprised that the sound I got on it was so different than what he had heard when other people played it. So the player matters as well.

edosan wrote:

There is no particular reason to cast a curved bore into the plastic--what's required is that the bore have the correct shape, or profile--and it's much easier to cast a straighter bore into the Yuu, and this is likely what's being done, thus, the off-center location of the hole at the 'root' end.

Sure, but you're not implying that "correct shape or profile" of bore is independent of the direction the bore takes through the flute material, are you?  If we "only" changed the direction the Yuu's bore took through the plastic (to follow the curve of the flute, for example) then I would expect the flute to sound differently.  e.g. timbre or tuning or both.  Curving the bore would reduce chimney heights of the lower holes, for example.

-Darren.