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#26 2009-02-22 12:33:05

Seth
Member
From: Scarsdale, NY
Registered: 2005-10-24
Posts: 270

Re: A Steel Shakuhachi?

edosan wrote:

Development
of that skill will never be of mass appeal because of the dedication it requires.

Agreed

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#27 2009-03-10 23:02:38

Toby
Shakuhachi Scientist
From: out somewhere circling the sun
Registered: 2008-03-15
Posts: 405

Re: A Steel Shakuhachi?

I totally agree with Alan: the sound of the flute is determined by the bore geometry and the bore smoothness. Nothing else is significant, at least as far as the sound goes. There are a few reasons why no one has made a plastic flute the equal of a bamboo flute, not the least of which deals with expectation and belief on the part of the player.

Dr. John Coltman did a famous and classic experiment with three flutes in different materials in the 1970s. He made identical short heads of delrin and attached them to tubes of silver, copper and wood. He then invited professional players to try them. Almost all the players felt that the flutes were quite different in character, and could describe the differences between them. He then mounted all three on a spindle in the dark so that all tactile and visual clues were eliminated and invited the players to identify them. To their surprise, none could.

For those interested in reading further on this:

http://ccrma.stanford.edu/marl/Coltman/Papers.html

see: "Effect of material on flute tone quality" and "Material used in flute construction"

A similar result was gotten with tests of trombone bells, with a twist: this time there were clear differences between the response of the bells, with certain harmonics varying up to 2 dB at the position of the players' ears, but in the dark not a single one of ten top trombonists could tell them apart.

The point is that people very much experience what they expect to experience. Here is a summary of another interesting study:

People were given a wine to taste. All got the same Cabernet Sauvignon, but one group was told that it was a normal table wine, while the other group was told that it was an exceptional, rare, costly vintage. Not only did the second group rate the wine higher, real-time brain scans showed more activity in their pleasure centers: they actually got more physiological pleasure when they thought the wine was finer, although it was the same wine.

Of course there is more to it. Bore smoothness plays a large role in the response of the instrument, as does undercutting of finger holes. No plastic shakuhachi that I know has the bore finished to the extent that a good handmade bamboo instrument does. But honestly, if the bore geometry and smoothness would be identical, the flutes would respond identically. Whether people would experience them so is a different matter.

Toby

Last edited by Toby (2009-03-10 23:20:24)

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#28 2009-03-14 11:20:00

lloyd
Member
Registered: 2009-03-13
Posts: 4

Re: A Steel Shakuhachi?

And I thought that if it looked like a shakuhachi and sounded like a shakuhachi, then it probably is a shakuhachi...

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#29 2009-03-14 13:50:33

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: A Steel Shakuhachi?

...or a club.


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#30 2009-03-14 21:59:48

Yungflutes
Flutemaker/Performer
From: New York City
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 1061
Website

Re: A Steel Shakuhachi?

Yes, the blind test was also done with violins, something like two middle grade instruments next to a Stradivarius. None of the pros could tell which was which.


"A hot dog is not an animal." - Jet Yung

My Blog/Website on the art of shakuhachi...and parenting.
How to make an Urban Shakuhachi (PVC)

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#31 2009-03-15 06:14:41

david
Member
Registered: 2006-07-25
Posts: 71

Re: A Steel Shakuhachi?

I love these discussions! It is so great hearing peoples views on their deep feelings on the shakuhachi. I found the shakuhachi on a search for a perfect, simple, raw instrument. I fell in love the instrument before ever really it (besides the short snips you hear on tv commercials and showws now and then). I think there is no simpler instrument. No moving parts, no plugs...nothing! Just a hollow tube with holes in it! But we all know how much more complicated it really is.
The material used to construct a shakuhachi shouldn't be that messy a subject. Another reason i fell in love with it is because it IS made from bamboo! On top of everything else, it is the most eco-friendly of instruments. That being said, I am really enjoying my Zink hocchiku! I really like having a flute that i don't have to worry about! I am constantly complaining about not having enough money for a taimu or kodama, but then i think what would happen if I buy a $2000 plus flute (after I win the lottery) and then it explodes on me! EEK! Anyway, when I play my Zink (I'm sorry), but I hear a shakuhachi. I would like to know why Edosan (who I normaly totally agree with and find to be a genius!) said that Zinks' shakuhahchi are no longer shakuhachi? I totally disagree! I feel that anyone who makes something and intends for it to be a shakuhachi and knows most of the general construction rules..it probably will be a shakuhachi.
I know you've all probably read these before, but I think they are important to this discussion. These are from Nelson Zinks' website;

"There's a Zen story about Tan-hsia who arrived at a monastery late one stormy night. Everyone had long been asleep and when the master couldn't find wood for the fire he burned the ornate wood carvings of Agyo and Ungyo, the temple guardians. Finally, warm and dry he fell asleep by the hearth."

"There's another story about a master who, on handing a beautifully lacquered bowl to a monk, asked, "What's the most important part of this bowl." The monk carefully examined the detailed and delicate gold work, the polish and sheen of the bowl's urushi surface and finally admitted he didn't know. "This part.", the master said and with a sweep of his hand indicated the inner volume of the bowl. "

"Penetrate these two stories and you'll know flutes--they've driven our inquiry as to the nature of end-blown flutes. The stories allowed us to cut through persistent shakuhachi myths. Along the way, we devised our own Zen riddle--From whence does the flute sound come? And found that it comes not from the bamboo or the lacquer or the material aspects of a flute but from the shape of the void within the flute. Flute sounds come directly from the void. "

Lets just say they are all shakuhachi! If someone wants to make one from seaweed, wood, metal, glass, meteorite....who cares..as long as the love for shakuhachi is there!!!! And I think in everybodies heart, we all love a traditional, ancient, unique bamboo shakuhachi.


david
'Listen to the words of no man; listen only to the sounds of the wind and the waves of the sea.,~Claude Debussy

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#32 2009-03-15 11:14:24

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: A Steel Shakuhachi?

I have played Zinks, and I don't hear a shakuhachi (sorry).

Sincerely,

     The Genius


[But I did love your post....]

Last edited by edosan (2009-03-15 11:15:17)


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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