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#1 2008-02-16 10:19:45

dreamofnobody
Member
From: Russia, Krasnodar
Registered: 2007-01-26
Posts: 50

Binding tricks

Hi everybody.

One my bamboo piece is cracked. The crack length is 8cm, and it’s dissects root to the center.
I’ve learned much from the forum about binding. I used binding technique shared by Perry Yong. I’ve put three windings on that piece but crack has opened again. There is some guys wrote they have the same problems with binding.

I’ve learned from the forum that it’s very important to create appropriate thread tension. I fixed free end of the thread in my room door handle, and I used my own weight to pull the bamboo piece and to create good thread tension. It’s some tricky to create good tension and not to tear the thread. But after some practice you become to feel the thread and how much power you can apply to it. It seems to me that the thread tension I’ve created was not bad.

But there is two tricky moments in the binding process.

Thirst is in the start of the binding process, than you fix windings using your thumbs. There is not enough power of my thumbs to prevent slipping then I try to create good thread tension. And at this point I can apply not so much power. After I made 3 windings the thread fix itself and I can apply more power to the thread.

Second is in the end of the binding process, than you fix windings using your thumbs again and put the thread end through the loop. There is the same problem. There is not enough power of my thumbs to prevent slipping, and thread slips throw my thumb and tension becomes some weaker.

And this is two weak points in my windings. They weaken all winding tension and decrease the power I’ve applied.

After the process I try to move the tread in the winding with my nail, and it’s not so hard in the winding border, it’s harder in the center but I can do this. And what about your windings: can you move the thread a bit?

Can you advice something to me? Is it enough your thumbs power then you make your bindings?


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#2 2008-02-16 17:45:09

Mujitsu
Administrator/Flutemaker
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-05
Posts: 885
Website

Re: Binding tricks

dreamofnobody wrote:

Can you advice something to me? Is it enough your thumbs power then you make your bindings?

I suppose you could rig up some kind of clamp to hold the binding. Some makers use winding jigs for binding. I rely on extreme thumb pressure to start the binding. At the end of the binding, you might try overlapping the last part of the binding over the last few revolutions of binding before you apply thumb pressure. There is more friction with binding on binding so there is less slippage. Of course you'll need to arrange the last of the binding back onto bamboo once the end is secure with tension.

It also helps to keep the binding as close together as possible, tightening as you go every few revolutions. My thumbs are tired just thinking about this!

Ken

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#3 2008-02-16 18:30:21

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: Binding tricks

Using a doorknob doesn't sound secure enough. I've applied enough pressure on the line while wrapping that I've broken the line. The break was probably at a knot, but it still seems like more pressure than a doorknob could withstand. My first few wraps, as you point out, turn out somewhat loose but that doesn't bother me much. When the wraps at the end have turned out to be loose enough to concern me, I've resorted to yanking the line that the loop pulled through and underneath some more, that will pull some of the outer loose part of the binding through. The ends might not line up as well that way, but it works. You might be able to use the same trick with the first wrap that's hard to get tight if you hold off on clipping the end until you're finished.

Even so, I suspect that part of the problem is leaving the bamboo dry out too much. If it was a good size gap I think it would be unrealistic to expect to be able to wrap a binding tight enough to pull the bamboo together after it drys out again and shrinks. This is getting beyond my experience though because the only wide crack I've repaired I used superglue and hoseclamps (I don't recommend this method, it looks like a disaster).


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#4 2008-02-16 19:32:59

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Binding tricks

radi0gnome wrote:

Even so, I suspect that part of the problem is leaving the bamboo dry out too much. If it was a good size gap I think it would be unrealistic to expect to be able to wrap a binding tight enough to pull the bamboo together after it drys out again and shrinks. This is getting beyond my experience though because the only wide crack I've repaired I used superglue and hoseclamps (I don't recommend this method, it looks like a disaster).

This really sums it all up perfectly. There is no glue on the planet that will hold a crack in bamboo closed, if the culm loses
enough moisture.

The crack must first be closed by the application of humidity, then binding must be applied within an inch of its life, and
maybe the crack will stay closed, if enough humidity is maintained.


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#5 2008-02-18 15:41:59

Yungflutes
Flutemaker/Performer
From: New York City
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 1061
Website

Re: Binding tricks

Hello dreamofnobody,

dreamofnobody wrote:

Hi everybody.

One my bamboo piece is cracked. The crack length is 8cm, and it’s dissects root to the center.
I’ve learned much from the forum about binding. I used binding technique shared by Perry Yong. I’ve put three windings on that piece but crack has opened again. There is some guys wrote they have the same problems with binding.

I'm glad you found my guide useful. Everyone has the same problem until you develop the technique.


I’ve learned from the forum that it’s very important to create appropriate thread tension. I fixed free end of the thread in my room door handle, and I used my own weight to pull the bamboo piece and to create good thread tension. It’s some tricky to create good tension and not to tear the thread. But after some practice you become to feel the thread and how much power you can apply to it. It seems to me that the thread tension I’ve created was not bad.

The first part of your problem is that your thread is not strong enough. You should try 25 pounds mono filament  fishing line until you can find a thread you like.


But there is two tricky moments in the binding process.

Thirst is in the start of the binding process, than you fix windings using your thumbs. There is not enough power of my thumbs to prevent slipping then I try to create good thread tension. And at this point I can apply not so much power. After I made 3 windings the thread fix itself and I can apply more power to the thread.

Second is in the end of the binding process, than you fix windings using your thumbs again and put the thread end through the loop. There is the same problem. There is not enough power of my thumbs to prevent slipping, and thread slips throw my thumb and tension becomes some weaker.

And this is two weak points in my windings. They weaken all winding tension and decrease the power I’ve applied.

You just have to get the first three windings as tight as possible. If you do one hundred bindings, the last few will be much better than the first 20. It also helps to make the windings wider.

After the process I try to move the tread in the winding with my nail, and it’s not so hard in the winding border, it’s harder in the center but I can do this. And what about your windings: can you move the thread a bit?

I usually move them in with my thumbnail as I'm winding. If I need to moved them after, I use a tool with a sharp edge and gently push.


Can you advice something to me? Is it enough your thumbs power then you make your bindings?

Yes, the thumb power is enough but you should try to find stronger thread. The kind that can take all your strength and not break. If you can not pull the end under the loop at the end of the binding, you have succeeded. You then have to find out how much to back off until you can pull it under. Every one I've learned from says to do it as tight as possible.

Once again, you will gain the technique after you've done about 100 bindings. Sounds like a lot but that can only be 10 flutes.

Good luck, Perry


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My Blog/Website on the art of shakuhachi...and parenting.
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#6 2008-02-20 18:06:29

tslarkin
Member
Registered: 2007-01-14
Posts: 4

Re: Binding tricks

How important is it, before binding, to close the crack, if possible, by leaving it in very high humidity? Or is it possible to bind so tightly that the binding closes the crack? Or does it not matter if the crack closes?

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#7 2008-02-20 19:07:14

Mujitsu
Administrator/Flutemaker
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-05
Posts: 885
Website

Re: Binding tricks

tslarkin wrote:

How important is it, before binding, to close the crack, if possible, by leaving it in very high humidity? Or is it possible to bind so tightly that the binding closes the crack? Or does it not matter if the crack closes?

Good question. I've had the best luck closing cracks with humidity before gluing and/or binding. For me, it's easier and seems a gentle way to get the bamboo back into place. I've had a higher percentage of luck closing the crack first compared to filling the crack without closing. However, some cracks are stubborn and continue to open up. If that's the case, I might fill the crack up without closing first as a last resort. Of course this could all change tomorrow!

Ken

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#8 2008-06-03 10:41:42

dreamofnobody
Member
From: Russia, Krasnodar
Registered: 2007-01-26
Posts: 50

Re: Binding tricks

Hi guys.

I want to thank you all for your advices and comments. Sorry that my thanks are some late.

Thanks Ken for your advice to use clamp. To say truth I have not found appropriate clamp to use but it pushed me to some ideas. I want to share my little invention.

To fix the thread in a start of binding I fix it on the flute in this way

http://foto.rambler.ru/public/freewaygates/4/binding_1/binding_1-web.jpg

next I do few revolutions to get to the binding place

http://foto.rambler.ru/public/freewaygates/4/binding_2/binding_2-web.jpg

and start the binding there

http://foto.rambler.ru/public/freewaygates/4/binding_3/binding_3-web.jpg

http://foto.rambler.ru/public/freewaygates/4/binding_4/binding_4-web.jpg

I can apply all the power the thread can endure and there is no slipp. I can say that the start of the binding is the most powerfull place in my bindins at the moment.

To fix the end of binding I tried to use the tool on the next photo

http://foto.rambler.ru/public/freewaygates/4/binding_5/binding_5-web.jpg

But it’s not so good because it takes one your hand busy, it is better to find some kind of  clamp (I’ve not found) to make both your hands free.

Thanks Perry that you pushed me to think about thread strenth. It’s really truth that the thread I was using at that moment was not so good, I’ve found that it stretches a bit that causes the binding weakening. I’ve found another thread that has no stretch.
I’ve tried 25 pounds mono filament  fishing line but it’s seemed very weak, I could tear it easily, the thread I use is much more stronger.

The crack I spoked in the first post in this thread is closed at the moment, it is some opened(the crack width less than 0.5mm) near the root, but it’s all I can do. The bindings on the flute do their work good and there is no changes near two months. So I can say I solved this problem.

http://foto.rambler.ru/public/freewaygates/4/binding_6/binding_6-web.jpg

http://foto.rambler.ru/public/freewaygates/4/binding_7/binding_7-web.jpg

http://foto.rambler.ru/public/freewaygates/4/binding_8/binding_8-web.jpg

Thank’s again everybody smile

Last edited by dreamofnobody (2008-06-03 10:52:18)


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