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Tube of delight!

#1 2008-06-28 22:33:40

Jon Kypros
Flutemaker
From: Melbourne FL
Registered: 2008-06-28
Posts: 258
Website

Japanese Shakuhachi Making Videos

I found these on youtube.com by searching with the kanji for shakuhachi:

http://youtube.com/user/kamikitakouzan

The most interesting one is where he shows his method for making a cast bore:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=AwPGdZ5xVQo


My site flutedojo - jinashi shakuhachi bamboo flute maker.

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#2 2008-06-29 00:36:29

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Japanese Shakuhachi Making Videos

Excellent. Lots of great detail.

Thanks, Jon.


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#3 2008-06-29 00:39:14

Jeff Cairns
teacher, performer,promoter of shakuhachi
From: Kumamoto, Japan
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 517
Website

Re: Japanese Shakuhachi Making Videos

Great video tutorials for those of you who understand Japanese or already have a working knowledge of shakuhachi construction.  I agree Jon, the cast bore method is interesting.


shakuhachi flute
I step out into the wind
with holes in my bones

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#4 2008-07-01 10:48:03

Musgo da Pedra
Member
From: South of Brazil
Registered: 2007-12-02
Posts: 332
Website

Re: Japanese Shakuhachi Making Videos

What kind of tube is used to make the cast process? Looks both flexible and strong...


Omnia mea mecum porto

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#5 2008-07-02 08:03:19

jaybeemusic
Member
From: Moncton, New Brunswick, Canada
Registered: 2006-06-22
Posts: 143

Re: Japanese Shakuhachi Making Videos

I'm 99% sure that this is the guys website....

http://www1.ocn.ne.jp/~tuner/katadori/index.html

if you put it into altavista babel fish it will traslate it for you.... not perfectly but you'll get the idea....

hope this helps....

looks like he cast the mandrel/stick with a flexable rubber/latex but i could be wrong.

jacques


It's better to keep your mouth closed and let people "think" that you're stupid, than to open it, and remove all doubt.

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#6 2009-04-02 11:50:24

jaybeemusic
Member
From: Moncton, New Brunswick, Canada
Registered: 2006-06-22
Posts: 143

Re: Japanese Shakuhachi Making Videos

sorry people....

HERE is the actual website of the guy.....there is a ton of info....   

http://hidetake.yon.to/frame01.html

yes, it's all in japanese....but put it into babel fish and you can translate the page into english....

very cool...

jacques


It's better to keep your mouth closed and let people "think" that you're stupid, than to open it, and remove all doubt.

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#7 2009-04-02 11:52:49

lowonthetotem
Member
From: Cape Coral, FL
Registered: 2008-04-05
Posts: 529
Website

Re: Japanese Shakuhachi Making Videos

Almost better than porn, and that is saying something coming from me.


"Turn like a wheel inside a wheel."

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#8 2009-04-02 12:17:50

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Japanese Shakuhachi Making Videos

jaybeemusic wrote:

sorry people....

HERE is the actual website of the guy.....there is a ton of info....   

http://hidetake.yon.to/frame01.html

yes, it's all in japanese....but put it into babel fish and you can translate the page into english....

very cool...

jacques

Wonderful, hyper-detailed videos; guy put a huge amount of work into them, complete with Sesame Street background music smile

Interesting note: In addition to casting his bores, this maker has also developed many of his own jigs, fixtures and methods,
many very clever indeed. He uses double-sided tape and CA adhesive to good effect, too. Worth a look, just to see the thinking involved.

Very interesting, even without knowledge of the language.

Last edited by edosan (2009-04-02 13:33:54)


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#9 2010-06-05 08:02:27

Itamar Foguel
Member
From: Israel
Registered: 2009-09-13
Posts: 120
Website

Re: Japanese Shakuhachi Making Videos

Looks like he uses dental plaster to cast the bore, i also wonder what is his mold made from, maybe silicone...i should try to make one of those myself big_smile , and wish i knew Japanese sad

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#10 2010-06-06 09:59:13

Itamar Foguel
Member
From: Israel
Registered: 2009-09-13
Posts: 120
Website

Re: Japanese Shakuhachi Making Videos

I didnt find anything about the molding other then some explenations about dental plaster, Why not use it anyway? 2 heavy and it dries the bamboo i guess...

I got car-kit (bondo) as an alternative but i need a thinner for it(or get some molding epoxy or poliaster instead), but im still not sure about what to make the inner molding from and the guy's flexible molding rod looks very good.
And what's bad in using plaster as a tonko alternative anyway?

Last edited by Itamar Foguel (2010-06-06 10:00:58)

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#11 2010-06-06 12:10:08

Mujitsu
Administrator/Flutemaker
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-05
Posts: 865
Website

Re: Japanese Shakuhachi Making Videos

Itamar Foguel wrote:

I got car-kit (bondo) as an alternative but i need a thinner for it(or get some molding epoxy or poliaster instead), but im still not sure about what to make the inner molding from and the guy's flexible molding rod looks very good.

Itamar,

Polyester resin is an option for a bore mandrel. It's hard enough to withstand repetitive use and pliable enough to use for curved shakuahchi.

Polyurethane resin is an option as a material for casting shakuhachi. It's lightweight, hard, cures fast, adheres well to bamboo, can be filed/sanded and isn't prone to cracking.

Both are two part liquids that can be poured. Also, they don't have the strong scent of epoxy resins.

In the US, both are available at a large chain store called "Tap Plastics."

......Those videos are impressive!

Ken

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#12 2010-06-07 12:22:03

Itamar Foguel
Member
From: Israel
Registered: 2009-09-13
Posts: 120
Website

Re: Japanese Shakuhachi Making Videos

I just had an oportunity to do some Polyaster casting as a part of a project for my studies, i was actually thinking of using it for bore casting since it dries very clear smooth and hard, the problem with this material is the exetremly bad vapours and smells it has during curing time and also when you sand it, im not sure how long the smell stays after curing and is it still poisenous (because it touchs the utaguchi i guess), but if urushi ,Cashew or some other laquer sticks to it it might be an option to laquer it on top to seal it.

Im yet to have any experiance with polyurthene casting resin.
using Bondo for casting can also be an option (thinned with nitro thinner 21) but it also had a horibble smell and chemicals inside it similar to polyaster (but i know its posibble to seal it with laquer).

Mandrel from Silicone seems to be a good choice but im not sure ill go for it since "Casting Silicone" is very expensive, and im not sure the normal filler type cures well enough at big amounts.

Im also not sure yet what to make the mandrel's mold from, but it might be a flexible plastic sheet rolled into a cone with the radius i want marked at the top and bottom of it, and then add the bottom cone and stick a metal rod in the middle to be able to attach and deattach them.

So i wonder Which way to go....

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#13 2010-06-07 15:18:01

Mujitsu
Administrator/Flutemaker
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-05
Posts: 865
Website

Re: Japanese Shakuhachi Making Videos

Itamar Foguel wrote:

Im also not sure yet what to make the mandrel's mold from, but it might be a flexible plastic sheet rolled into a cone with the radius i want marked at the top and bottom of it, and then add the bottom cone and stick a metal rod in the middle to be able to attach and deattach them.

Sure, whatever works!

Another way to do it which I've had decent luck with is to turn a wood mandrel to desired specs on a lathe. Seal the mandrel, coat with a release agent, then place it into a pvc tube, seal one end, fill the area between the PVC wall and mandrel with plaster of paris, pop out the mandrel, seal the plaster, coat with a release agent, then pour in your desired material for a flexible mandrel.

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#14 2010-06-07 16:32:16

Itamar Foguel
Member
From: Israel
Registered: 2009-09-13
Posts: 120
Website

Re: Japanese Shakuhachi Making Videos

Mujitsu wrote:

Another way to do it which I've had decent luck with is to turn a wood mandrel to desired specs on a lathe.

I was thinking about starting out just with 2 simple cones, but i know that the desired bore shape is not 2 perfect cones but they have some curves near their top or somthing, at list the big cone, and that rises few more questions:
how do you know how to plan the bore profile for lathing?
)How do you lath it accurately (mechanical lath? wood lath?)

Or do you make 2 simple cones and then use spot tuning after the bore casting for fine tuning?


I also wana thank you both John and Ken for your detaild answers and explenations.
Thanks

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#15 2010-06-08 11:55:02

Mujitsu
Administrator/Flutemaker
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-05
Posts: 865
Website

Re: Japanese Shakuhachi Making Videos

Itamar Foguel wrote:

how do you know how to plan the bore profile for lathing?
)How do you lath it accurately (mechanical lath? wood lath?)

Or do you make 2 simple cones and then use spot tuning after the bore casting for fine tuning?

Itamar,

Once you have your bore profile, from a bore graph average or your own measurements, there are different ways to go to turn a mandrel.

Having it professionally turned on a precise, metal machine lathe is costly but accurate.

Home, wood lathes will also work. A micrometer is handy for measuring the mandrel as stock is removed. You can even build your own foot powered lathe with scrap wood and bungee cords.

Wood lathes are not as accurate and there is an element of luck involved but it's fun to make and compare many mandrels. Every flute casted from a mandrel is slightly different yet each mandrel will produce flutes with similar, unique characteristics. In my experience, shakuhachi casted in this way require some type of bore adjustment after casting.

Here is some information about the uneven taper of the bore. http://www.shakuhachiforum.com/viewtopic.php?id=3105

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#16 2010-06-11 19:53:56

Itamar Foguel
Member
From: Israel
Registered: 2009-09-13
Posts: 120
Website

Re: Japanese Shakuhachi Making Videos

Thanks Ken,

I Study Industrial design so i have an access to our workshop with metal precise leth, but to tell the truth ill have to ask my teachers how to turn such a thing, another option (but costy) is to model the mandrel as desired in SolidWorks and print it in STL printer or plaster printer (super precise and probably still cheaper then having it turned by a pro on a lath) and make a mold and then cast it from whatever silicone or plaster.

But i think that for a start ill just go with a straight double cone like the YUU has and save the heavy expenses for later big_smile

Now i just need to figure out how to turn the mandrel to have the correct radius at top and bottom and correct width and angle.
after ill have it (ill probably turn it in pvc or Dalerin or such) ill try to cast it with Polyester (since i already have the material).

I just hope ill have time to do it between all the exams projects and presentations this month.


By the way it seems to be optional to cast bores with undercuts if you make the mandrel from silicone with a big thick rod for a central core and when you want to take it out you take the rod out and the silicone can collapse into itself.

Itamar

Last edited by Itamar Foguel (2010-06-11 20:07:18)

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#17 2010-12-22 18:00:22

Itamar Foguel
Member
From: Israel
Registered: 2009-09-13
Posts: 120
Website

Re: Japanese Shakuhachi Making Videos

Its been a while, ive made myself a nice mendril with stl printing a model of the bore i made on the computer, then casted it in plaster, and made the real mandril from a casted sillicone. today ive finished the first experiment casting with it into a non root column using plaster just to see how it goes.

bore came out nicely, the mandrill took a while to extract from the mold...

and the bamboo...welll its seems that plaster kills bamboo hmm

It already developed 2 considrable cracks all along the flute which i asume developed because of the thin bamboo and the plaster sucking all the moisture out of the inside part of the bamboo,

ill still try to bind and keep on see what comes out of it but i guess it will go a lot better with an epoxy or polyaster/bondo casting.

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#18 2010-12-28 19:31:48

Itamar Foguel
Member
From: Israel
Registered: 2009-09-13
Posts: 120
Website

Re: Japanese Shakuhachi Making Videos

update: did another casting this time in a root end piece i had that had thin walls.
polyester resin. it come out good, the bore is not smooth, im not sure if its due to air bubbles, leaks or just the nature of the substance.

had to do some fill ups on the top and bottom of the flute. after it will fully cure ill drill the holes tune and then color with cashew urushi (or real urushi if i will get it by that time)
when im done ill post some pictures if there is anyone interested at all...
(if not i might just put it in my blog, but its all hebrew there)

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#19 2010-12-28 19:50:06

J Ross
Member
From: Vancouver,Washington USA
Registered: 2010-12-18
Posts: 74
Website

Re: Japanese Shakuhachi Making Videos

Thanks for the great links! I have also been using the Kanji to search the Internet. What treasures I have found!

Jim

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