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#1 2008-07-16 19:13:37

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

honkyoku vibrato

In my training, I would unconsciouly fall into a western style breath vibrato instead of shaking and Masa would bust me on this and told me to shake instead. Now I know in shin kyo ku western techniques are employed but for honkyoku I was wondering what the current feelings  are on the subject because sometimes I hear people playing honkyoku with what seems to be a breath(diaphraghm) vibrato.  Is this a modern concept of playing honkyoku or an unconscious thing?  I hope it's obvious that I'm excluding Nezasa-ha from this discussion.


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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#2 2008-07-16 20:26:37

Tairaku 太楽
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From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3222
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Re: honkyoku vibrato

Jim Thompson wrote:

In my training, I would unconsciouly fall into a western style breath vibrato instead of shaking and Masa would bust me on this and told me to shake instead. Now I know in shin kyo ku western techniques are employed but for honkyoku I was wondering what the current feelings  are on the subject because sometimes I hear people playing honkyoku with what seems to be a breath(diaphraghm) vibrato.  Is this a modern concept of playing honkyoku or an unconscious thing?  I hope it's obvious that I'm excluding Nezasa-ha from this discussion.

Hi Jim,

This is a pitfall for people who come to shakuhachi from Western wind instruments. Western vibrato is still considered a no-no in honkyoku, as is tongueing. These are probably the number one and two "bad self-taught habits" I have to wean students from. Because so many come from playing silver flute.

Regards,

BR


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#3 2008-07-16 20:32:17

radi0gnome
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From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: honkyoku vibrato

Did you actually see them or just hear them? Some of the vibratos I've seen I would have guessed were diaphragm vibrato if I wasn't watching a video. BTW, I'm far from a pro and not even taking lessons so I'm not suggesting that anyone take this as advice, but I've been checking my shaking vibrato rate by reverting to a western vibrato to see if it sounds the same.


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#4 2008-07-16 20:56:14

Tairaku 太楽
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From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3222
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Re: honkyoku vibrato

There are a lot of general rules about vibrato in shakuhachi music, in fact there are many different terms for what we call vibrato and tremolo in the west.

For example usually when hitting main notes (i.e. ro, tsu, re, chi, ri in Kinko) you start the note without vibrato then introduce it slowly, increase in speed and depth, decrease in speed and depth and end without again. All in the space of one note! This even applies to Nezasaha komibuki.

This is quite different from western vibrato which is more like the "push button" type, i.e. "on" or "off" on an electric organ.

On the other hand with meri notes the vibrato is introduced immediately and stays at the same speed and depth.

MOST OF THE TIME!

You can't do this stuff if you use western vibrato therefore you'll not sound Japanese, whatever that is.

OK KIDS (not you Jim! newbie readers)...I am describing things here, not giving technique lessons. If you haven't learned those forms of yuri yet do not try to teach yourself from my description because you'll probably get it wrong. Learn from your teacher. We do not teach vibrato off the bat.

Then there are specific honkyoku which are designated to be played with NO VIBRATO. This is why we are not supposed to use western vibrato at our own discretion or just use any form of Japanese shakuhachi vibrato unless it's specified.

I know this sounds dogmatic but that's the way it is if we want to sound like the good players of the past. A lot of times the students would be playing with western vibrato and I would ask them "what's that". "My passion coming out". "Lose the passion!"

In my opinion the main thing about shakuhachi is breath control (of many sorts). If you don't have conscious control of your vibrato or non-vibrato you have not yet achieved breath control. I think the breath control aspect of shakuhachi is more important than any of the individual "musical" aspects which can be measured by western musical ideas. Just my opinion here.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#5 2008-07-16 23:09:10

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: honkyoku vibrato

Brian,
    Thanks for the reassurance. I prefer shake vibrato for honkyoku too. It's just that I've heard players that I have a ton of respect for who use the breath vibrato on honkyoku. I'm glad nobody changed the rules.
         Congratulations on a successful concert in Tas!  Are you coming to Colorado in August?
                        Cheers  Jim


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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#6 2008-07-17 00:05:34

Tairaku 太楽
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From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3222
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Re: honkyoku vibrato

Jim Thompson wrote:

Brian,
    Thanks for the reassurance. I prefer shake vibrato for honkyoku too. It's just that I've heard players that I have a ton of respect for who use the breath vibrato on honkyoku. I'm glad nobody changed the rules.
         Congratulations on a successful concert in Tas!  Are you coming to Colorado in August?
                        Cheers  Jim

Thanks Jim,

I don't think I'm coming to the States until October.

Maybe some people are using breath vibrato but I don't know about it. Any other people have anything to add?


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#7 2008-07-17 00:39:01

Zakarius
Member
From: Taichung, TAIWAN
Registered: 2006-04-12
Posts: 361

Re: honkyoku vibrato

In the vids I've seen online, most proficient players 'shake' up and down for vibrato... when I do that, the pitch seems to vary too much so I've switched to shaking side to side -- broad movements allow seemingly provide for smooth & minor variations. Anyone else do this or should I watch out for getting too used to it?

Zak -- jinashi size queen


塵も積もれば山となる -- "Chiri mo tsumoreba yama to naru." -- Piled-up specks of dust become a mountain.

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#8 2008-07-17 00:49:00

Tairaku 太楽
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From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3222
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Re: honkyoku vibrato

Zakarius wrote:

In the vids I've seen online, most proficient players 'shake' up and down for vibrato... when I do that, the pitch seems to vary too much so I've switched to shaking side to side -- broad movements allow seemingly provide for smooth & minor variations. Anyone else do this or should I watch out for getting too used to it?

Zak -- jinashi size queen

Straight up and down is not good. The most efficient way, and this is a musical fact, not just tradition is mainly side to side with a bit of up/down angle. Straight up and down causes the notes to cut out. There's much more control side to side. But it's not totally horizontal as in 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock, maybe more like going between 2 o'clock and 8 o'clock. Or 10 and 4 if that's your comfort zone.

But it's not mechanical there's variation in it and the vibrato can be small or large depending upon the song and the duration of the note. As I mentioned depth of vibrato can change during the course of the note so there's a lot more to it than just mechanically swinging your head side to side.

Simply listening to a variety of players will show you how much variance and how personal vibrato can be.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#9 2008-07-17 02:44:32

Kiku Day
Shakuhachi player, teacher and ethnomusicologist
From: London, UK & Nørre Snede, DK
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 922
Website

Re: honkyoku vibrato

Some players can create a vibrato with the head without moving so much. If you look at a video of Yamaguchi Goro, he even hardly moves when he plays meri or kari. He controls the direction of breath instead of moving the head. The other side of the spectrum is Yokoyama Katsuya, who is using huge movements. But both do produce the meri/kari and the vibrato, of course. They just use slightly different techniques.
Also my main teacher, Okuda Atsuya moves very little. He emphasises on maximum effect by as little movement as possible. Since I have learned my basics from Okuda, I have been asked several times whether I use Western vibrato. But I don't, I just don't move my head as much as others. smile

Regarding the direction of the head movements. One of the informations, I wasn't particularly fishing for, but came from some of the interviews I have done with older players in Japan was, that the direction of head movements have changed. This is no research result with scientific evedence, but I thought I will share these thoughts with you... What they told me was that more and more people use headmovements side to side. These older shakuhachi players told me that their teachers used much more straight up-and-down movements. Their resoning was, that since sankyoku playing and ensemble playing became more and more important, the change of pitch by the up-and-down vibrato cause a problem. Therefore the side-to-side vibrato became more important today - even in honkyoku (which some these players didn't approve of). This is not an investigation to take seriously at any account... we don't have videos of people from the early 20th century or late 19th century. But perhaps worth having in your mind that even these things may have changed.
As far as I understand some players use straight up-and-down vibrato in honkyoku. In a conversation with Simura, he once explained to me that the change of pitch was probably desired and enjoyed in the old days. We were talking about the changes in how we enjoy and hear honkyoku today compared with Edo period. Again something you can only guess by looking at older instruments, but it is very interesting to be conscious about that aesthetics changes over time.


I am a hole in a flute
that the Christ's breath moves through
listen to this music
Hafiz

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#10 2008-07-17 03:20:27

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
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Re: honkyoku vibrato

I have been taught that vibrato should not be used at all in traditional honkyoku. Tozan players seem to sometimes have vibrato and tonguing habits which can give them a heavy accent when they start to learn koten honkyoku, perhaps similar to the western flute as you mentioned Brian. Also Kinko-ryu players often can't stop their yuri (which is a kind of vibrato I guess, would it be called?) and that is an interesting point. I have been told that should not be used in non-Kinko koten honkyoku and it may be that it has crept in to some players' style as a recent change, and even there could be a chance that it crept into Kinko honkyoku only recently. Perhaps the historians here could shed more light on that?

Also traditional Japanese singing does not generally use vibrato, except in occasional specific places (places in the music I mean), as opposed to Western classical singing which to my ears seems to been sung with constant vibrato. Japanese singing is ornamented with kobushi (don't know what that would be called in English) - kind of folds and somersaults in the sound. Some more recent Japanese singers (in sankyoku for example) seem to be using vibrato, influenced by the Western classical tradition, which can sound very out of place. And incidentally the use of vibrato was far less extensive even 100 years ago in Western classical music. So there seems to be a global increase in vibrato usage.

Justin
http://senryushakuhachi.com/

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#11 2008-07-17 03:44:04

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
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Re: honkyoku vibrato

Kiku Day wrote:

Some players can create a vibrato with the head without moving so much. If you look at a video of Yamaguchi Goro, he even hardly moves when he plays meri or kari. He controls the direction of breath instead of moving the head. The other side of the spectrum is Yokoyama Katsuya, who is using huge movements. But both do produce the meri/kari and the vibrato, of course. They just use slightly different techniques.

As some of you might remember, a few years ago I analyed Yokoyama's recordings to find out what pitch he used for his meri notes. I discovered that he had great consistency in his pitch, and it averaged at 25 cents flatter than the Western equivalent. That is, tsu meri (for example), was a 75 cent interval from ro (in both kan and otsu, measured both relative to re and to ro).

Recently I analysed a honkyoku recording of Yamaguchi Goro. His tsu meri in otsu, relative to ro, averaged at 28 cents sharper than the Western equivalent, and in kan 20 cents sharper. That is, a 128 cents and 120 cents interval from ro, respectively.

Relative to re,  tsu meri in otsu averaged at 55 cents sharper than the Western equivalent, and in kan 34 cents sharper. That is, a 345 cents and 386 cents interval from re, respectively.

Perhaps there is some correlation between the amount of head movement of the 2 players, and the amount of change in pitch caused by the movement - in this case Yokoyama Katsuya's meris being much deeper in pitch than Yamaguchi Goro's.

Justin
http://senryushakuhachi.com/

Last edited by Justin (2008-07-18 00:09:17)

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#12 2008-07-17 04:02:32

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3222
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Re: honkyoku vibrato

I don't understand the point in using up and down head movements for vibrato because it's so easy for the note to cut out that way. It's not good technique. They may have done it in the past but there doesn't seem to be a good reason for that.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#13 2008-07-17 09:42:34

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: honkyoku vibrato

According to Masa, certain folk songs  did have a straight up and down(pitch) vibrato and it was done in 1/8 notes right in rhythm with the drum(s). Not all or even most folks songs but certain ones. I don't know if that related to a particular geographical area or just certain pieces. Masa also taught the side to side version but mostly relied on a circular movement that that incorporated both side and up and down to varios degrees according to desired effect.


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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#14 2008-07-17 18:50:14

Moran from Planet X
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From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
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Re: honkyoku vibrato

Jim Thompson wrote:

According to Masa, certain folk songs  did have a straight up and down (pitch) vibrato and it was done in 1/8 notes right in rhythm with the drum(s).

Masa taught me that, or tried to teach me that, when I was first learning Mogamigawa Funa Uta. I had already developed a fairly passable side-to-side vibrato, albeit too fast, from earlier vertical flute experience. Masa humored me using this most of the time but when I tried using it on Mogamigawa Funa Uta he showed me the straight-up and down vertical vibrato and insisted that I slow way, way down. "More folky" he said.


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#15 2008-07-17 22:31:17

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
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Re: honkyoku vibrato

Tairaku wrote:

There are a lot of general rules about vibrato in shakuhachi music, in fact there are many different terms for what we call vibrato and tremolo in the west.

For example usually when hitting main notes (i.e. ro, tsu, re, chi, ri in Kinko) you start the note without vibrato then introduce it slowly, increase in speed and depth, decrease in speed and depth and end without again. All in the space of one note! This even applies to Nezasaha komibuki.

This is quite different from western vibrato which is more like the "push button" type, i.e. "on" or "off" on an electric organ.

I kind of think this is a misconception of Western vibrato, at least for flute and voice. I remember a fellow silver flute student once complaining that her teacher was asking her to perform vibrato in a manner in which you say, but none of my teachers have. Many of them prescribed different vibratos for different styles of music, ie., baroque, classical, romantic, contemporary..., but none of them ever said to keep it steady like an organ vibrato. It was usually to start slow and speed up and get louder or vica-versa, and sometimes within the same long tone like you say with shakuhachi (as you say, "sometimes"). The teacher I got the most results from what she said suggested that vibrato should be a part of the tone and not something added on top. She wasn't specific about how to do that, but knowing that was the goal made it easier to know if I was getting it right at home while practicing. From voice lessons I learned that the rate of the vibrato should be natural, and similar to a movement like what happens if you shake/flutter your hand. The point being that it should be natural and you need to take away whatever you're doing to keep your voice from vibrato-ing rather than add something to a straight voice to make it vibrato. There seems to be some transference of this concept to silver flute playing there, but I'm not so certain that the diaphragm will vibrato naturally on its own. To be honest, I'm not so certain that the voice will vibrato naturally like that either physiology-wise, but it's more believable and the voice teacher maintained that it was true. Either way, even the voice teacher suggested that the notes come on without vibrato and slowly let it start vibrato-ing.     

I've also read (either Seth Riggs or Roger Love) that vibrato is pleasing at about the same rate as a Parkinson's patient shakes, and that what you need to do is delibrately let go of the stuff that keeps your voice from vibrato-ing, that you have to learn to let go of the control that Parkinson's patients have had taken away from them due to the disease.

It could be that the Japanese aesthetic is completely different, but most of the time, I've got to admit I've come across a few exceptions, but what is considered good music from one culture usually has many of the same qualities of good music in other cultures. So, I'm skeptical when you say that Japanese have a different opinion about what is good vibrato-wise... considering the vibrato Japanese people often throw on at karaoke bars, maybe your right. Or maybe it's just bad vibrato, maybe similar to your students who start throwing crummy sounding diaphragm vibrato into Japanese music. Is it possible that their vibrato just isn't up to snuff, particularly on an instrument that they don't really know how to play yet? It's not easy getting that vibrato to sound good on a silver flute, it's something that belongs to the next level after you can blow and reach the notes solid and on pitch at the right time, and most flute students never get past that point, after all, it a major accomplishment in itself. Listen to James Galway (or almost any very advanced flute player) along-side of a student of say 4 or 5 years, it's the same vibrato technique, but it's Galway's that will sound awesome, the student's will probably be annoying.   

Besides, I think Lesley's sound cool... smile


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#16 2008-07-19 18:31:24

Dun Romin
Member
From: Holland
Registered: 2008-04-19
Posts: 136

Re: honkyoku vibrato

All of you talking about vibrato was very interesting to read and I recognised a lot I heard when I was studying singing. But my teachers both in The Hague and Venice taught me that vivrato was not adding/doing something, but instead getting loose, take your tension away as much as you can. My most naughty old womanteacher told me "like an orgasm". You get a natural light living vibrato, that sounds pleasing and makes the tone more beautiful and supporting. When I'm very relaxed and playing shakuhachi sometimes the same thing happens, and it gives a beautiful supporting, slightly waving, living sound. I never even thaught about considering it as a vibrato, it is also a long way from the Japanese vibrato sounds. Is this in Japanese music already considered a vibrato? I know that Mediaval music has to be sung straight; I can also imagine that was neccesary to do in those huge kathedrals to make the words understandable, but I also discovered that doing so gives you a nice sore throatif you don't take great care. How is that then to combine? How much and which type of surroundings have helped giving form to the Japanese accoustic effects? And where is the personal the feel-good factor in this?


Tomorrow's wind only blows tomorrow. (Koji)

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#17 2008-07-19 18:49:41

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: honkyoku vibrato

There are a lot of different 'styles' of vibrato (or whatever you want to call it) in shakuhachi playing, some very idiosyncratic, some in the manner of a school (ryu), some very rapid in periodicity, some slow and langorous, some spooky, some singing, some just clumsy and ugly. Some Honkyoku thinkers eschew it altogether, some use it only infrequently, for effect, whereas it appears a lot in Minyo, and pretty frequently in Gaikyoku.

Many older Japanese players I've heard (usually amateurs, but not always) have a very pronounced, often incessant vibrato. It's kind of an old school thang.

Listen to Riley Lee's vibrato, across many of his recordings; he is a vibrato master, both in taste and execution. He uses several different ways to get it, too, including up and down, for a really subtle one.

I like the 'antique' traditional Japanese ones too, though, if done well.

eB

Last edited by edosan (2008-07-19 18:51:26)


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#18 2008-07-19 19:03:12

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3222
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Re: honkyoku vibrato

Well said Ed. Next time I see Riley I'll ask him to show me an example of where up and down vibrato is useful. I am still skeptical that an experienced player would use STRAIGHT up and down vibrato but maybe I'm wrong.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#19 2008-07-19 20:30:48

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
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Re: honkyoku vibrato

It's interesting that several of you have mentioned vibrato singing as natural, what happens when you relax. I personally feel it as quite unnatural, and feel that the traditional Japanese style of singing in for example jiuta, is far more natural than Western classical singing. The kobushi is of course a complex technique, but apart from that, the standard sound of the voice is very near the talking voice, compared to that unnatural register (is it called falsetto) of trained classical singers, and the vibrato. If vibrato comes from just naturally relaxing the voice, wouldn't babies talk and sing with vibrato? (Or, do they?) Don't get me wrong I am not saying it is bad. But after listening to so much of that natural Japanese singing style, when I listen to a constant vibrato of Western classical singing, I miss the "space" of the pure voice. As if the vibrato fills up all the space, leaving nothing empty (my feeling). And as it turns out, it is the more ancient Western classoical singing which I like, i.e. that performed with no vibrato, as someone mentioned above.

Yokoyama also talks about the vibrato filling up the sound (my words here so not a direct quote), and tells us we should not use it (yuri) in honkyoku. He says we need the pure sound of the shakuhachi. Also this is more difficult. But I think it allows more subtle expression, and, as I mentioned, more space.

If I say space, I do not mean only the silence when there is no sound, but also the silence within the sound. It is that which I think vibrato can easily cover over (fill in).

Justin
http://senryushakuhachi.com/

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#20 2008-07-19 21:38:49

Jeff Cairns
teacher, performer,promoter of shakuhachi
From: Kumamoto, Japan
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 517
Website

Re: honkyoku vibrato

I think that when tateyuri is actually indicated in a piece, the composer is asking for the expected effect (a broader sweep of sonic range with a similar speed as yokuyuri) rather than the physical mechanics of execution.  Therefore, a compromise is often used when it will satisfy the expectations of the composer simply because, as Brian suggests, tateyuri requires a great deal of control in order not to cut-off the note at the extremes of the sweep and a yuri that runs more diagonal can give an approximate effect.  I feel that comparing yuri to western vibrato is a mistake and a very different aesthetic.  It's best to accept variations of yuri for what they are and vibrato for what it is.


shakuhachi flute
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with holes in my bones

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#21 2008-07-19 22:17:18

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: honkyoku vibrato

Tairaku wrote:

Well said Ed. Next time I see Riley I'll ask him to show me an example of where up and down vibrato is useful. I am still skeptical that an experienced player would use STRAIGHT up and down vibrato but maybe I'm wrong.

It's not absolultely straight up and down, but it's unmistakeably UP and DOWN, and very tight and subtle, not side to side--although he does that plenty, too. Riley is one of those people who can play meri notes with less head movement than most. Because he has such an efficient airstream, he can get a very clean vibrato with that little up and down movement. I've also seen Kurahashi-sensei use up and down quite a bit as well. I use it as well, for very tight vibrato, and I don't get any cut-out.

Justin wrote:

Yokoyama also talks about the vibrato filling up the sound (my words here so not a direct quote), and tells us we should not use it (yuri) in honkyoku. He says we need the pure sound of the shakuhachi. Also this is more difficult. But I think it allows more subtle expression, and, as I mentioned, more space.

I agree, and I have heard him say this, too, and I have also heard him use yuri in Honkyoku (egad!) but it is very subtle, and just placed here...and there. Very un-constant.

Last edited by edosan (2008-07-19 22:25:16)


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#22 2008-07-19 22:25:33

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3222
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Re: honkyoku vibrato

I think we're talking about all kinds of different things here. I've seen plenty of up and down action from Kurahashi and Riley, usually with furi more than with yuri. I wouldn't equate furi with "vibrato".  Then of course Jeff is also correct it's not right to use the words "yuri" and "vibrato" interchangeably. Moral of the story seems to be that there are a lot of wonderful ways of coping with this issue including not using any.

I was practicing yesterday and I can get most of these effects without moving my head at all, just using my jaw, lips, tongue and throat. Some guys look like a 2 bit hooker in a back seat their heads are moving around so much. wink


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#23 2008-07-19 22:42:58

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: honkyoku vibrato

Tairaku wrote:

I think we're talking about all kinds of different things here. I've seen plenty of up and down action from Kurahashi and Riley, usually with furi more than with yuri. I wouldn't equate furi with "vibrato".

I ain't furi, Brian, it's vibrato, plain and simple. It's just another way to do it, without a wide excursion.

David Wheeler, on the other hand, I've never seen him do it, nor Chris Blasdel. Those two learnt from Kawase and Yamaguchi, respectively--hardcore Kinko players.

Last edited by edosan (2008-07-19 22:47:44)


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#24 2008-07-19 22:55:14

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3222
Website

Re: honkyoku vibrato

Cool I'll watch more closely next time I see those guys. All I know is that when I was starting out I was using up and down vibrato and Ronnie said, "Knock it off, you sound like a drunken sailor." and told me to do side to side and I've had a phobia of up and down ever since. Thanks Ronnie! roll


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

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#25 2008-07-20 00:39:32

Moran from Planet X
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From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
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Re: honkyoku vibrato

Tairaku wrote:

I was practicing yesterday and I can get most of these effects without moving my head at all, just using my jaw, lips, tongue and throat.

You keep good company. This from the Jin Nyodo notes:

Jin Nyodo No Shakuhachi 03

San'ya (Futaiken)

The unique playing technique called soko-yuri is used throughout the piece. This relies on spreading and narrowing the aperture of the lips and is one type of yuri, although it is different from the kind of yuri where the head shakes. When the lips are narrowed the sound lowers somewhat, and because of this wave of rising and falling pitch it yields a special tonal feeling which swells up from the bottom (soko) of the earth. This soko-yuri technique is employed only in the pieces of Futai-ken and Shogan-ken.


Tairaku wrote:

Some guys look like a 2 bit hooker in a back seat their heads are moving around so much. wink

Yeah, but I cost more than 2 bits.


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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