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#26 2008-07-20 00:45:27

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3222
Website

Re: honkyoku vibrato

Right on Chris. 

I have asked a lot of players about soko-yuri and this is something there seems to be a great deal of confusion about. Like everything else.

I was practicing yuri, furi, nayashi, hiku, etc without head movements and it's possible to do all that without moving your head. I generally use a mixture of finger, head and mouth to get those effects.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#27 2008-07-20 03:16:01

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: honkyoku vibrato

Tairaku wrote:

Cool I'll watch more closely next time I see those guys. All I know is that when I was starting out I was using up and down vibrato and Ronnie said, "Knock it off, you sound like a drunken sailor." and told me to do side to side and I've had a phobia of up and down ever since. Thanks Ronnie! roll

I heartily agree, in principle, and understand your bias there, but it can be a very useful thing if used rightly. I've also heard plenty of 'side-to-side-only' players who sounded pretty hammered, too smile


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#28 2008-07-20 05:53:26

Jeff Cairns
teacher, performer,promoter of shakuhachi
From: Kumamoto, Japan
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 517
Website

Re: honkyoku vibrato

Brian, sounds like the front seat is no stranger to you. wink


shakuhachi flute
I step out into the wind
with holes in my bones

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#29 2008-07-20 12:59:08

madoherty
Moderator
Registered: 2008-03-15
Posts: 366

Re: honkyoku vibrato

Justin wrote:

I miss the "space" of the pure voice. As if the vibrato fills up all the space, leaving nothing empty (my feeling). And as it turns out, it is the more ancient Western classoical singing which I like, i.e. that performed with no vibrato, as someone mentioned above.

If I say space, I do not mean only the silence when there is no sound, but also the silence within the sound. It is that which I think vibrato can easily cover over (fill in).

I am fully on board with you on this point Justin.  In my compositions I use this sense of silence/space, above and below each tone to inform the structure of the musical line as much as the sound.  Each pitch creates a tension in the air that holds it, harmonic tension- there is a pushing and pulling on the tone that holds it in its place that one can hear very well when listening to a tone without vibrato.  I do not get the same sense of the "place" (time-space) of a tone with vibrato.

In a rehearsal for a piece I composed using this sense of what I have called "harmonic silence" I had to ask repeatedly that the strings not use vibrato.  I think that they were offended.  What I got back was that the violin would not sound like a violin without vibrato.  It is near this time also that I started writing pieces for "voices" and not specified instruments.

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#30 2008-07-20 13:25:50

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: honkyoku vibrato

madoherty wrote:

In a rehearsal for a piece I composed using this sense of what I have called "harmonic silence" I had to ask repeatedly that the strings not use vibrato.  I think that they were offended.  What I got back was that the violin would not sound like a violin without vibrato.  It is near this time also that I started writing pieces for "voices" and not specified instruments.

String players(bowed) also use vibrato to ease any pitch disparities. To match perfectly straight tones requires an even tighter than normal scrutiny of pitch. That might be why they got uncomfortable. But they should be able to do it. For some people, vibrato is a habit they can't turn off. Big problem.

Last edited by Jim Thompson (2008-07-20 13:27:13)


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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#31 2008-07-20 13:47:56

madoherty
Moderator
Registered: 2008-03-15
Posts: 366

Re: honkyoku vibrato

Jim Thompson wrote:

madoherty wrote:

In a rehearsal for a piece I composed using this sense of what I have called "harmonic silence" I had to ask repeatedly that the strings not use vibrato.  I think that they were offended.  What I got back was that the violin would not sound like a violin without vibrato.  It is near this time also that I started writing pieces for "voices" and not specified instruments.

String players(bowed) also use vibrato to ease any pitch disparities. To match perfectly straight tones requires an even tighter than normal scrutiny of pitch. That might be why they got uncomfortable. But they should be able to do it. For some people, vibrato is a habit they can't turn off. Big problem.

I knew I missed something in orchestration class. Thanks Jim.

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#32 2008-07-20 20:40:21

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: honkyoku vibrato

madoherty wrote:

In a rehearsal for a piece I composed using this sense of what I have called "harmonic silence" I had to ask repeatedly that the strings not use vibrato.  I think that they were offended.  What I got back was that the violin would not sound like a violin without vibrato.  It is near this time also that I started writing pieces for "voices" and not specified instruments.

Hi Madoherty
Do you have any recording of this on the internet? It would be great to hear some of it.



Jim Thompson wrote:

String players(bowed) also use vibrato to ease any pitch disparities. To match perfectly straight tones requires an even tighter than normal scrutiny of pitch. That might be why they got uncomfortable. But they should be able to do it. For some people, vibrato is a habit they can't turn off. Big problem.

Hi Jim
This reminds me of my own playing and using yuri. When I first started studying with Kurahashi Yoshio, I had a constant yuri going on, as that was the style of the Kinko school I had come from. He asked me to play without yuri (when studying honkyoku), but I kept using it! (Not because I was disobedient, but because I couldn't stop!) He told me "If you choose to use yuri, you can use it, but if you are using it just because it's a habit, you should learn to stop using it! First quit it, then after, you can choose when and where to use it."

I think that was great advice. Finally I managed it.

Justin
http://senryushakuhachi.com/

Last edited by Justin (2008-07-20 20:40:48)

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#33 2008-07-21 03:39:38

Kiku Day
Shakuhachi player, teacher and ethnomusicologist
From: London, UK & Nψrre Snede, DK
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 922
Website

Re: honkyoku vibrato

I think we have talked about many interesting aspects of yuri and other vibrato-like techniques now. And some of the names are used in some schools but not in others. Perhaps we should make a list of yuri etc known to us. I will start the list, and please add to it.

• Tateyuri
• Yokoyuri
• Mawashiyuri
• Takeyuri
• Sokoyuri
• Takeyogeyuri
• Furi
• Furiokuri
• Nayashi
• Ikinayashi

I know there are loads more, but I can't think of others right now.


I am a hole in a flute
that the Christ's breath moves through
listen to this music
Hafiz

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#34 2008-07-21 08:07:48

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: honkyoku vibrato

Kiku Day wrote:

I think we have talked about many interesting aspects of yuri and other vibrato-like techniques now. And some of the names are used in some schools but not in others. Perhaps we should make a list of yuri etc known to us. I will start the list, and please add to it.

• Tateyuri
• Yokoyuri
• Mawashiyuri
• Takeyuri
• Sokoyuri
• Takeyogeyuri
• Furi
• Furiokuri
• Nayashi
• Ikinayashi

I know there are loads more, but I can't think of others right now.

Hi Kiku,
    A complete list of these terms, what they mean, and the notations for them is something I wish I had. Any body have the resources to do that?  Kiku?


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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#35 2008-07-21 08:44:57

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: honkyoku vibrato

Kiku Day wrote:

I think we have talked about many interesting aspects of yuri and other vibrato-like techniques now. And some of the names are used in some schools but not in others. Perhaps we should make a list of yuri etc known to us. I will start the list, and please add to it.

• Tateyuri
• Yokoyuri
• Mawashiyuri
• Takeyuri
• Sokoyuri
• Takeyogeyuri
• Furi
• Furiokuri
• Nayashi
• Ikinayashi

I know there are loads more, but I can't think of others right now.

Hi Kiku
How about a definition/explanation to go with each term. Sounds like we could end up with a great yuri glossary!

Justin
http://senryushakuhachi.com/

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#36 2008-07-21 09:37:18

Kiku Day
Shakuhachi player, teacher and ethnomusicologist
From: London, UK & Nψrre Snede, DK
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 922
Website

Re: honkyoku vibrato

Jim Thompson wrote:

A complete list of these terms, what they mean, and the notations for them is something I wish I had. Any body have the resources to do that?  Kiku?

Sure thing, although 'complete' is a big word. But we can try! Please help everybody!

• Tateyuri: Vertical head movements
• Yokoyuri: Horizontal head movements
• Mawashiyuri: Head movements in circles
• Takeyuri: Shaking the shakuhachi in order to get the effect of very fine yuri.
• Sokoyuri: Large vertical head movements (especially down)
• Takeyogeyuri: same as takeyuri (some say finer...?)
• Furi: A single or more head movement down often in combination with atari.
• Furiokuri: A single or more of head movement trying to get the effect as if one threw the sound off
• Nayashi: portamento (usually down or down-up. This one really varies depending on school, so please add)
• Ikinayashi: A type of nayashi the composer Takahashi Yuji told me about. He worked with Yokoyama, so perhaps KSK people know more...

OK shakuahchi folks. Add some more. This could be fun because we can compare the differences ! ! ! smile


I am a hole in a flute
that the Christ's breath moves through
listen to this music
Hafiz

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#37 2008-07-21 09:58:56

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: honkyoku vibrato

Maybe added to people's definition could be in which schools they have learned these terms/techniques.
Great stuff!

Justin
http://senryushakuhachi.com/

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#38 2008-07-21 14:51:22

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: honkyoku vibrato

A definitive dictionary of shakuhachi related terms in English and Japanese is an absolutely stellar idea. What publisher wouldn't want to get their hands on that hot ticket?     
     We are brilliant visionaries! Now all we need is someone to do the massive amount of work. Oh well, it's still a great idea.


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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#39 2008-07-21 22:48:34

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: honkyoku vibrato

•

lol   lol   lol   lol   lol

•


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#40 2008-07-22 14:10:36

nyokai
shihan
From: Portland, ME
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 613
Website

Re: honkyoku vibrato

Vibrato is insidious and easily becomes an addiction. It covers up the raw beauty of a straightforward tone as well as a player's flaws. If you boil every vegetable in your garden you end up not with uniquely shaped zucchinis, eggplants, and peas but simply English food -- short on presentation and even shorter on nutrition. Yuri, I think, should be used consciously and judiciously, or, if it's spontaneous, sparingly.

The exception might be a few great Kinko players like Yamaguchi Goro, whose vibrato is so finely executed and delicate that, though almost continuous, it enhances rather than clobbers the subtleties of the music. Few achieve his level of precision, and perhaps not many more necessarily aspire to that sort of very specific patrician elegance as a goal of shakuhachi study.

There have been comparisons with drunken sailors and two bit hookers, but overuse of yuri has always reminded me of Katherine Hepburn running lines while going down on Spencer Tracy. Maybe not beautiful.

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#41 2008-07-22 15:10:48

Kiku Day
Shakuhachi player, teacher and ethnomusicologist
From: London, UK & Nψrre Snede, DK
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 922
Website

Re: honkyoku vibrato

Nyokai,

I LOVE the way you say things.... mushy English food ! ! ! So funny! Think about me! I have lived there for almost 6 years ! wink

And I agree, Yamaguchi Goro has something special - even when he is doing something that is usually not quite my thing. I believe it is his subtlity that enable him to do these things and still sound so amazing. He has a finess that I haven't seen in other kinko players (which doesn't mean they don't exist out there). I find his sankyoku playing absolutely astonishing!

But no-one has added to the list of yuri, furi etc. sad


I am a hole in a flute
that the Christ's breath moves through
listen to this music
Hafiz

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#42 2008-07-22 15:28:16

Elliot K
Member
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 132
Website

Re: honkyoku vibrato

Kiku wrote:
But no-one has added to the list of yuri, furi etc.

Well, here are a few VERY obscure ones I've heard of:

Yuri gagarin - somewhat spacey vibrato prefered by Russians

Yurinal - a bit stinky, but hard like porcelain

Yurinidiot - very insulting vibrato, often leads to fisticuffs

Yurili otto gividup - A shakuhachi players worst fears realized via bad vibrato...

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#43 2008-07-22 21:25:11

Zakarius
Member
From: Taichung, TAIWAN
Registered: 2006-04-12
Posts: 361

Re: honkyoku vibrato

Elliot K wrote:

Yurili otto gividup - A shakuhachi players worst fears realized via bad vibrato...

This last one is not so obscure... I think we've all toyed with that last one now and then wink

Zak -- jinashi size queen


塵も積もれば山となる -- "Chiri mo tsumoreba yama to naru." -- Piled-up specks of dust become a mountain.

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#44 2008-07-22 22:44:09

Kerry
Member
From: Nashville, TN
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 183

Re: honkyoku vibrato

Zakarius wrote:

Elliot K wrote:

Yurili otto gividup - A shakuhachi players worst fears realized via bad vibrato...

This last one is not so obscure... I think we've all toyed with that last one now and then wink

Zak -- jinashi size queen

yurili ah turomo no yuri - when in doubt roll


The temple bell stops, but the sound keeps coming out of the flowers. -Basho

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#45 2008-07-23 08:57:42

Kiku Day
Shakuhachi player, teacher and ethnomusicologist
From: London, UK & Nψrre Snede, DK
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 922
Website

Re: honkyoku vibrato

Elliot K wrote:

Well, here are a few VERY obscure ones I've heard of:
Yuri gagarin - somewhat spacey vibrato prefered by Russians
Yurinal - a bit stinky, but hard like porcelain
Yurinidiot - very insulting vibrato, often leads to fisticuffs
Yurili otto gividup - A shakuhachi players worst fears realized via bad vibrato...

Ok, Jim, Justin and others who might have thought the forum could be used to gather knowledge from each other... not enough interest to do so... Oh well! wink


I am a hole in a flute
that the Christ's breath moves through
listen to this music
Hafiz

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#46 2008-07-23 12:28:03

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: honkyoku vibrato

Hold on just a sec Kiku, we're not dead yet. I just discovered that Tairaku, in his eternal wisdom,  has a list of terms already started on this forum. You'll find it at  shakuhachiforum.com/viewtopic.php?id=1327.   How about making this list a little more accessible and expandable? I know it's not that simple, somebody has to monitor it and verify accuracy. Rats! We just keep coming up against that hard work thing. Anybody with a scholarly bent up for that?
       Your list of yuri terms was well beyond my knowledge of terms.  That's why I didn't add anything. Maybe people are interested in this.   Let's see.


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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#47 2008-07-23 17:54:30

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3222
Website

Re: honkyoku vibrato

Jim Thompson wrote:

Rats! We just keep coming up against that hard work thing. Anybody with a scholarly bent up for that?
      .

Exactly, Jim. I barely got out of high school, whereas many of our members are working on their second or third Masters and Ph.D. which makes them professional scholars. So they'd be good at this. smile


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#48 2008-07-25 14:33:52

Kiku Day
Shakuhachi player, teacher and ethnomusicologist
From: London, UK & Nψrre Snede, DK
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 922
Website

Re: honkyoku vibrato

Ok, I will try to see if I can add onto that... some time.
It would be great to see the different schools' terms, and it would help when picking up a tozan score for sankyoku etc.


I am a hole in a flute
that the Christ's breath moves through
listen to this music
Hafiz

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#49 2008-07-27 18:32:22

Dun Romin
Member
From: Holland
Registered: 2008-04-19
Posts: 136

Re: honkyoku vibrato

Yes please, go on ...... also if it is 'some time'.  smile  For me this discussion is the answer to some questions I had just put myself. It's so nice to discover that sounds I just invented for fun, really exist and have names to them. It makes me also curious which types of "vibrato" are used under which circumstances/in which type of music and if there exist signs to indicate them. And if so, how can I recognise them.


Tomorrow's wind only blows tomorrow. (Koji)

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#50 2008-08-14 14:20:04

marek
Member
From: Czech Republic
Registered: 2007-03-02
Posts: 187
Website

Re: honkyoku vibrato

Hi,

couple of weeks ago I attended a camp with Teruhisa Fukuda in France. I asked him for some vibrato examples and he draw for me some pictures which I then copied. These I have now recreated with in my computer. Enjoy!  http://img37.imagevenue.com/loc1081/th_37577_Vibrato_Fukuda_Teruhisa_copy_122_1081lo.jpg

Disclaimer: I have not asked for the names, I didn't care.

Cheers,

Marek


"what are you gawping at!?"
                                          Uchiyama Roshi

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