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#51 2008-09-03 12:33:23

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: honkyoku vibrato

Tairaku wrote:

Well said Ed. Next time I see Riley I'll ask him to show me an example of where up and down vibrato is useful.

Brian,
            Here's a great example.        Minyo Shakuhachi Solo        by    Iwao Yoneya     (12 songs)
      I hope that is the correct title. My copy is one Masa burned for me so I can't %100 sure.   I wanted to share it not only for the vibrato issue but because this guy is a kickass shakuhachi player.  High-end Minyo.  I hope you can find it easily.
                           regards
                                    jim


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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#52 2009-08-29 22:52:12

Karmajampa
Member
From: Aotearoa (NZ)
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 574
Website

Re: honkyoku vibrato

Picking up on this 'oldie but a goodie' thread a question comes to me.
It appears that 'uri' refers to modulation rather than 'vibrato'. Is this correct ?

Being that the up and down movement would give a pitch modulation, vibrato, but the side to side movement is more subtle and though also gives some pitch modulation also seems to give volume modulation, tremelo. Though I think the utaguchi shape is going to have some influence here.

I am wanting to approach uri now that my blowing is stronger and Kiku's descriptions are very helpful, but I would also like to know a bit more regarding the type of modulation, I will listen more carefully to the recordings I have to hear if I can distinguish the type of modulation.
I recall a comment regarding vocal modulation in western singing and Opera, that it was preferred to be used sparingly as it has the tendency to give the impression of the singer being nervous. I know for myself when I was doing a lot of singing, once the vocals had built up to strength there would come a very natural, unforced modulation, particullarly towards the end of the note, not at the beginning.

Kel.


Kia Kaha !

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#53 2009-08-30 01:49:56

Kiku Day
Shakuhachi player, teacher and ethnomusicologist
From: London, UK & Nψrre Snede, DK
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 922
Website

Re: honkyoku vibrato

Kel, do you mean furi?


I am a hole in a flute
that the Christ's breath moves through
listen to this music
Hafiz

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#54 2009-08-30 03:59:37

Karmajampa
Member
From: Aotearoa (NZ)
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 574
Website

Re: honkyoku vibrato

Kiku Day wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:

A complete list of these terms, what they mean, and the notations for them is something I wish I had. Any body have the resources to do that?  Kiku?

Sure thing, although 'complete' is a big word. But we can try! Please help everybody!

• Tateyuri: Vertical head movements
• Yokoyuri: Horizontal head movements
• Mawashiyuri: Head movements in circles
• Takeyuri: Shaking the shakuhachi in order to get the effect of very fine yuri.
• Sokoyuri: Large vertical head movements (especially down)
• Takeyogeyuri: same as takeyuri (some say finer...?)
• Furi: A single or more head movement down often in combination with atari.
• Furiokuri: A single or more of head movement trying to get the effect as if one threw the sound off
• Nayashi: portamento (usually down or down-up. This one really varies depending on school, so please add)
• Ikinayashi: A type of nayashi the composer Takahashi Yuji told me about. He worked with Yokoyama, so perhaps KSK people know more...

OK shakuahchi folks. Add some more. This could be fun because we can compare the differences ! ! ! smile

Kiku, if I uri vertically, the pitch modulates, if I uri horizontally, the volume modulates, if I uri diagonally or figure 8 or circle, it is a more subtle combination of both.
During the thread, no mention has been made to what is modulating, pitch or volume, so this is really what I wanted to bring up, or draw attention to, as it would make quite a difference to the effect, just how one does their Uri.

Furi, i think, would be a pitch modulation in the meri direction.

Kel.


Kia Kaha !

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#55 2009-08-30 05:13:34

philthefluter
Member
From: Dublin, Ireland
Registered: 2006-06-02
Posts: 190
Website

Re: honkyoku vibrato

Here is a sonogram comparison of different types of shakuhachi vibrato: http://www.shakuhachizen.com/vibrato.html


"The bamboo and Zen are One!" Kurosawa Kinko
http://www.shakuhachizen.com/
http://www.myspace.com/shakuhachizen

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#56 2009-08-30 06:07:25

Kiku Day
Shakuhachi player, teacher and ethnomusicologist
From: London, UK & Nψrre Snede, DK
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 922
Website

Re: honkyoku vibrato

Karmajampa wrote:

Kiku, if I uri vertically, the pitch modulates, if I uri horizontally, the volume modulates, if I uri diagonally or figure 8 or circle, it is a more subtle combination of both.
During the thread, no mention has been made to what is modulating, pitch or volume, so this is really what I wanted to bring up, or draw attention to, as it would make quite a difference to the effect, just how one does their Uri.

Furi, i think, would be a pitch modulation in the meri direction.

Kel.

Hi Kel.
Ahh! You mean yuri.
Sorry for the misunderstanding - but if you take away the first letter the next 3 letter of both yuri and furi are the same. Just to make it complicated the English pronunciation of yuri and uri is the same while if you read it in the Japanese romanisation system uri will be pronounced ouri. So, apologies for my confusion - it was genuine. smile

I would call yuri for vibrato because it usually is repeated and used not as a singular effect.
Furi can also be a pitch modulation returning back to kari - unless it is a furi otoshi, then it is always ending in meri (otoshi means dropping). Often this is a single movement and not repeated as yuri.

This can vary from school to school as sometimes I have experienced that the same name means something different in other schools. Here is anyway my take base on Zensabo but also learning short periods with teachers from Chikuho, Myoan-Taizan, Kinko teachers.
All these yuri below have pitch modulations as aim - I think.

• Tateyuri: Vertical head movements
• Mawashiyuri: Head movements in circles
• Sokoyuri: Large vertical head movements (especially down)

while

• Yokoyuri have more volume modulation as aim.
However, in both types they overlap and there is volume modulation in the 3 first yuri and also some pitch modulation in the last one.
It has been explaine to me by a couple of teachers in Japan that yokoyuri became much more popular than it was after playing in sankyoku ensembles became the major shakuhachi activity. This, I was explained, was due to that yokoyuri have less pitch modulation. But, I have not been able to check up on this - and it might just be a few people's opinions.

Kel, if you are approaching yuri, then try to practice them fairly slowly. I have noticed from my students that many end up doing the yuri too fast if I don't make them practice it in slow motion. However, I get the feeling you have a great ear and musical sense + lots of music experience... so I have no doubt that you will be fine without my extra comment. I hope my advice wasn't unnecessary...

Last edited by Kiku Day (2009-08-30 06:10:59)


I am a hole in a flute
that the Christ's breath moves through
listen to this music
Hafiz

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#57 2009-08-30 06:08:22

Karmajampa
Member
From: Aotearoa (NZ)
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 574
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Re: honkyoku vibrato

Excellent, thank you Phil.

And Kiku, I appreciate your consistent offerings, thank you, I am much the informed.
Back to work
Kel.

Last edited by Karmajampa (2009-08-30 06:16:57)


Kia Kaha !

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#58 2009-08-31 11:59:01

philthefluter
Member
From: Dublin, Ireland
Registered: 2006-06-02
Posts: 190
Website

Re: honkyoku vibrato

Keep in mind that my samples of yuri are my (limited) interpretation of what the terms mean, playing on a particular shakuhachi, on a particular day, etc. Therefore any conclusions are just a starting point for discussion.


"The bamboo and Zen are One!" Kurosawa Kinko
http://www.shakuhachizen.com/
http://www.myspace.com/shakuhachizen

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#59 2009-08-31 14:27:47

Karmajampa
Member
From: Aotearoa (NZ)
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 574
Website

Re: honkyoku vibrato

I can see the understanding is in the doing, and the doing is more difficult and subtle than it sounds, so far I'm a two bit'er.

Kel.hil,


Kia Kaha !

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#60 2009-08-31 15:11:02

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: honkyoku vibrato

There is an old, and probably true, saw in the traditional shakuhachi teaching community that it takes three years to develop a decent vibrato.


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#61 2009-08-31 16:12:45

Karmajampa
Member
From: Aotearoa (NZ)
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 574
Website

Re: honkyoku vibrato

edosan wrote:

There is an old, and probably true, saw in the traditional shakuhachi teaching community that it takes three years to develop a decent vibrato.

and a lifetime to perfect it.

Kel.


Kia Kaha !

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#62 2010-05-30 10:01:36

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: honkyoku vibrato

How does Mr Koga get such a nice deep vibrato-like sound with such little head movement? I've noticed this in other videos too. I want to play like this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5HHdTpUXeQ&NR=1


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#63 2010-05-30 11:09:14

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: honkyoku vibrato

radi0gnome wrote:

How does Mr Koga get such a nice deep vibrato-like sound with such little head movement?

It's not a 'vibrato-like' sound, it's a vibrato. With an efficient embouchure, very little head movement is required for a subtle
but clear vibrato.

Get on with your three-years' work...


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#64 2010-05-30 18:09:16

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3222
Website

Re: honkyoku vibrato

edosan wrote:

radi0gnome wrote:

How does Mr Koga get such a nice deep vibrato-like sound with such little head movement?

It's not a 'vibrato-like' sound, it's a vibrato. With an efficient embouchure, very little head movement is required for a subtle
but clear vibrato.

Get on with your three-years' work...

Pretty normal vibrato action there. There are other styles of playing which use more extreme vibrato but that's just a choice, not mandatory.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#65 2010-05-31 22:58:12

Daniel Ryudo
Shihan/Kinko Ryu
From: Kochi, Japan
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 355

Re: honkyoku vibrato

Ed 'old saw' is "kubi furi sannen,"  the one phrase regarding shakuhachi that many Japanese nonplayers are familiar with.  My teacher, Ikezoe Kyodo, of Chikudosha Kinko style, also uses the up and down vibrato, but sparingly.

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#66 2010-06-01 13:41:11

chikuzen
Dai Shihan/Dokyoku
From: Cleveland Heights,OH 44118
Registered: 2005-10-24
Posts: 402
Website

Re: honkyoku vibrato

radiognome wrote:

How does Mr Koga get such a nice deep vibrato-like sound with such little head movement?

The key word here, of yours, is "little head movement". This is not a little head movement. If you can see the head moving then it's a lot of head movement. Maybe you just don't get as much vibrato without moving even more. This is as much vibrato as you would normally expect with this much head movement.


Michael Chikuzen Gould

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#67 2010-06-02 09:56:39

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: honkyoku vibrato

chikuzen wrote:

radiognome wrote:

How does Mr Koga get such a nice deep vibrato-like sound with such little head movement?

The key word here, of yours, is "little head movement". This is not a little head movement. If you can see the head moving then it's a lot of head movement. Maybe you just don't get as much vibrato without moving even more. This is as much vibrato as you would normally expect with this much head movement.

After making some more observations I can see I've been deluded some. First, watching my own head shake vibrato in the mirror looks (and feels) like more movement than what it looks like on video. Second, I think I was tending to make the vibrato too deep. Third, vibrato in kan seems to take less head movement for the same depth as it takes in otsu. Fourth, Koga's audio has some reverb that I think may make the vibrato sound nicer than a dry recording.

Of course, I'm not very good at it either, and that doesn't help. I'm very impressed at what good players can do with head-shake vibrato.


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#68 2010-06-06 00:31:16

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: honkyoku vibrato

chikuzen wrote:

radiognome wrote:

How does Mr Koga get such a nice deep vibrato-like sound with such little head movement?

The key word here, of yours, is "little head movement". This is not a little head movement. If you can see the head moving then it's a lot of head movement. Maybe you just don't get as much vibrato without moving even more. This is as much vibrato as you would normally expect with this much head movement.

I agree with you about the Koga video. What about this one at 1:40? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeJcaCwN8Z4 . I see some head shake earlier in the phrase, but when it gets to the end at 1:40 I'm hearing distinct vibrato with no perceptible headshake. Does it get so that the headshake becomes imperceptible, or is this player using some diaphragmatic vibrato?


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#69 2010-06-06 01:12:52

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: honkyoku vibrato

radi0gnome wrote:

Does it get so that the headshake becomes imperceptible, or is this player using some diaphragmatic vibrato?

Miyata is one of the very few almost entirely self-taught top contemporary players. He does use quite a bit of diaphragmatic vibrato; something
you almost never see except in some shakuhachi music composed/played by former silver flute players who got into shakuhachi.


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#70 2010-06-09 01:52:16

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: honkyoku vibrato

andyshak wrote:

Edosan wrote: "....Miyata ....does use quite a bit of diaphragmatic vibrato"
In my experience this statement may not be correct.

Regarding the amount of head movement to achieve either meri or vibrato, please consider the effect of the amount of pressure between the flute and the chin. If the pressure between the flute and the chin when playing is geater, then more exaggerated head movements may be required to achieve intended pitch variations. Players should consider trying to reduce this pressure as a means to achieve a greater degree of pitch control and to minimise the head movements required when using meri or vibrato techniques.

Andrew MacGregor

Fact is that, even though what you say is accurate, Miyata does indeed use diaphragmatic vibrato quite a bit.


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#71 2010-06-09 03:44:33

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: honkyoku vibrato

I'm with Ed. That's a diaphram vibrato. I can tell by the sound and by looking.


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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#72 2010-06-09 04:05:25

Moran from Planet X
Member
From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
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Re: honkyoku vibrato

I don't mean to be the bearer of mediocre compromise, but it looks and sounds to me like he uses both.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeJcaCwN8Z4

-------------------------------------------------------------------

(later in the pre-dawn hours ...)

Then again, Jim & Groucho remind me, how can I trust my senses at all? I have been scolded several times recently for being so impertinent.

I must repent.

I'll side with Andrew to even the playing field.

Last edited by Chris Moran (2010-06-09 06:40:12)


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#73 2010-06-09 09:51:42

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: honkyoku vibrato

Chris Moran wrote:

I don't mean to be the bearer of mediocre compromise, but it looks and sounds to me like he uses both.

Never said he DIDN'T use both, if you'll scrutinize what I've posted here.

Does seeing him play from about 20 feet away qualify as 'evidence'.

And, lookee here:

       http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeJcaCwN8Z4

Go full screen, and watch carefully starting at 5:40. Wonder how he gets such a vibrato with so little (or no...) head movement?

Perhaps Larry Tyrrell can add to this, having studied with him.

Last edited by edosan (2010-06-09 11:20:09)


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#74 2010-06-09 10:06:46

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: honkyoku vibrato

Chris,
        I think Groucho-Sensei was actually implying the opposite. When you stop believing your own perceptions you wind up in the Tea Party.

Last edited by Jim Thompson (2010-06-09 10:08:13)


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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#75 2010-06-09 18:44:20

Moran from Planet X
Member
From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
Website

Re: honkyoku vibrato

edosan wrote:

Go full screen, and watch carefully starting at 5:40. Wonder how he gets such a vibrato with so little (or no...) head movement?

Right I spent some time in the wee hours and made some notes about when he used yuri vibrato and diaphragmatic vibrato and 5:40 is one of the markers for using the later.

I could add more notes later if I am asked to. I have to go hunting through my work bag for them.

andyshak wrote:

I have never identified this and find your certainty surprising.

Andrew, speaking with certitude is a definite pitfall that hobbles discussions with heavily left-brained enginering types of folk not to mention just plain assertive right-brained critical types like me. If engineers didn't speaking with certitude we'd probably have a world full of collapsing suspension bridges and software that couldn't search for the word "four."


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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