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#26 2008-08-02 12:42:55

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: Playing 'anything'

Justin,        thanks for you learned expertise. That makes a lot of sense. I am correct to be confused.  I guess it's still a matter of each flute being an entity unto itself.   Thanks again!
                                             
                                                                                 Jim


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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#27 2008-08-02 18:45:24

Tairaku 太楽
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From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
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Re: Playing 'anything'

Hi Jim,

What you said in the first place was correct regarding modern instruments. There is no musical difference between MOST modern Tozan and modern Kinko flutes.

The music itself is a different matter.

Tozan ryu is from Kansai, as is Myoan. In the early days of Tozan flutemaking they followed the Myoan style (fat bamboo, small end hole) and the early Tozan flutes look like Myoan flutes but there is ji inside and they are frequently two piece. These aspects made it easier for the maker to produce a flute that was in tune. This was important because Tozan has a lot of ensemble music.

However the best makers were the Kinko makers and gradually Tozan makers started imitating that style.

THEN all makers started to follow the same trends in flute evolution which included things like tuning them to western standards.

Now there are no particular flutes which are made specifically for Kinko or Tozan music. They're interchangeable, makers put the utaguchi in that they think their customer wants, whether that's an actual or just theoretical customer.

The only exceptions to this might be some modern makers (such as Kinshu). who are attempting to imitate vintage Kinko flutes. As far as I know there are no makers attempting to reproduce the vintage Tozan style of flutes.

Regards,

BR


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#28 2008-08-02 21:00:58

axolotl
Member
From: Los Angeles
Registered: 2007-11-16
Posts: 215
Website

Re: Playing 'anything'

edosan wrote:

axolotl wrote:

I agree, Justin, that trying to escape the unique 'shakuhachiness' of the instrument in performing a non-traditional piece would be counterproductive.  Not letting those meri notes speak as they should would transform a piece into a new beast entirely.  Although--I still do wonder how the heck Riley does it on "El Sueño", because in that piece, tsu meri does not sound different from the rest of the melody.

The reason for the quick moves and the loud meris is that Riley is playing a David Brown 7-hole flute on El Sueño (although he is plenty quick and able to play relatively loud meris on a proper 5-hole as well).

a SEVEN HOLE!  Oh, say it ain't so!  Well, that does explain some things.  Seems like there is a use for them after all.

Thanks for the tips, Geni!  Once I am in a position to explore other things to practice, I will, but if I don't work on 'Renshu Kyoku' and 'Roku Dan' right now, Jim is going have my hide.  smile

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#29 2008-08-02 21:38:55

Justin
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From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
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Re: Playing 'anything'

Hi Brian
The Tozan shakuhachi which I have played that were maybe around 30 years old (don't know whether or not that counts as modern for you?) were definitely NOT the same as Kinko shakuhachi. The first proper shakuhachi I had was such a shakuhachi, and in the end I quit using it because firstly the tone colour was unsuitable for my lessons, and secondly the techniques I was studying were nearly unplayable.

There was another student in our school who came from Tozan ryu before and was using a Tozan instrument. Eventually he changed his instrument because it sounded very obviously Tozan, which was quite out of place for our music. That was also relatively modern (maybe made within the last 30 years.) As for Tozan shakuhachi being made today, I haven't played them but I think I have seen that the mouth piece area (not just the inlay decorative shape) is characteristically Tozan - for example shallow utaguchi cut.

Tairaku wrote:

Now there are no particular flutes which are made specifically for Kinko or Tozan music. They're interchangeable, makers put the utaguchi in that they think their customer wants, whether that's an actual or just theoretical customer.

The only exceptions to this might be some modern makers (such as Kinshu). who are attempting to imitate vintage Kinko flutes. As far as I know there are no makers attempting to reproduce the vintage Tozan style of flutes.

BR

The shakuhachi I make are specifically made for the genres I play. That doesn't mean that they can't play other genres. But, it means they are designed for that. For example, Yokoyama Katsuya's shakuhachi were designed to play his honkyoku. MOST shakuhachi makers don't play Yokoyama's honkyoku. One important consequence of this is that they don't test their shakuhachi for dai meri, and for the phrase "chi chi ru tsu meri". Most shakuhachi can't play these techniques well at all, especially "chi chi ru tsu meri". However that does not limit his shakuhachi to only playing his honkyoku. He also has certain requirements for playing Fukuda Rando's music. So they are made able to play that. one example is his particularly characteristic chi meri.

And still, I'm sure you can play Tozan music on them too. To a Tozan ear, I don't know how that would sound. Perhaps they would complain that the tone colour would be out of place? Anyway I have no idea about that.

So my shakuhachi also are made specifically to play the techniques of Yokoyama's honkyoku. Particularly my longer shakuhachi. And then there are the shakuhachi I make for Araki Kodo's Kinko style. Araki-sensei uses very specific techniques, and when playing with him I desire a particular tone colour. That doesn't mean only one tone colour will do. But there are certain directions of tone colour which give more suitable sound.

So the jiari which I make are aimed at my performance of mainly these two styes.

When I play other Fuke-shu honkyoku (we may say "Meian", but not just Meian-ji honkyoku), I make in a different style according to that. I usually want a more earthy tone colour, and depending on the style, I may want a soft-earthy tone (for example for Kyoto pieces) or may want a more crisp powerful tone for Tohoku style, for example.

Why I am mentioning this is because I think it is not just about imitating a style of instrument - at least not for me. I have learned a great deal from studying old instruments, and I continue to do so with great interest and respect. I want to understand well what the old style of instruments were (before they became more homogeneous as today), and why the makers of different style made as they did. But at the same time for me imitating is not quite enough. I want to push myself further. My teachers are a great help about that. I want to take all of the knowledge and understanding gained from the shakuhachi I most love, and then push through to creating the shakuhachi which I most want to perform on. My teachers give me feedback too, as to what they desire, and what they want more. So it is a collaboration between old style and living playing tradition.

Justin
http://senryushakuhachi.com/

Last edited by Justin (2008-08-02 21:45:28)

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#30 2008-08-02 21:52:57

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: Playing 'anything'

I love this forum.  Thanks fellas.


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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#31 2008-08-03 11:56:37

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
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Re: Playing 'anything'

OK Justin, I am talking about the shakuhachi of today regarding Tozan and Kinko music, not flutes of 30 years ago. That's what Jim was asking about.

Yokoyama is another subject because he is a unique combination of Kinko, Shinkyoku, Rando and "Dokyoku" playing. Finding a flute that plays all those things well involves musical exactitude and a series of compromises. The flute that plays all those styles well is usually a boring flute.

This business of "chi chi ru tsu meri" or "chi ru tsu ru" which Yokoyama players dwell upon, I don't understand it. Every shakuhachi does those phrases. It's only when using half holing techniques that sometimes they can't produce it.  It's a straw man argument.  If the bore and the holes are big enough they do this phrase without half holing. In other words, use the kind of flutes Watazumi used and you can play Watazumi music without resorting to unnatural techniques.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#32 2008-08-03 12:43:00

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
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Re: Playing 'anything'

Hi Brian

Tairaku wrote:

OK Justin, I am talking about the shakuhachi of today regarding Tozan and Kinko music, not flutes of 30 years ago. That's what Jim was asking about.

Okay, got you.

Tairaku wrote:

Yokoyama is another subject because he is a unique combination of Kinko, Shinkyoku, Rando and "Dokyoku" playing. Finding a flute that plays all those things well involves musical exactitude and a series of compromises. The flute that plays all those styles well is usually a boring flute.

Yes. There is this possibility. I certainly myself feel (for jiari) drawn towards a tone colour which is nearer to old Kinko shakuhachi. If that makes my shinkyoku/gendaikyoku sound more Kinko, I am quite happy. If my shakuhachi on the other hand would make my Kinko music sound more gendaikyoku-ish, I would be quite upset! So there are some compromises I am unwilling to make. I think each person has a different taste in this respect.

However, I find it very workable to make a shakuhachi which can both play the dokyoku techniques well, and also play Kinko music well. In that there needn't be a compromise. The difference might be not in terms of technique but in terms of tone colour, in which case I may make a different tone colour for dokyoku, but then they will be long shakuhachi anyway, and Kinko playing does not exceed 2 shaku. Also, each person really has different likes and preferences for tone colour anyway. Some of Yokoyama-sensei's students were here today, and for example, two of them both tried 2 of my 1.8s and two 2.4s. Each had a different character. One of them much preferred one of each, and the other the opposite. One of the 2.4s was quite thin, and one much wider. I would expect you Brian to much prefer the wider, but the one man much preferred the thinner, which suited him better. Both people play the same honkyoku, but have different requirements/tastes. I guess that is the fun of it all.

Tairaku wrote:

This business of "chi chi ru tsu meri" or "chi ru tsu ru" which Yokoyama players dwell upon, I don't understand it. Every shakuhachi does those phrases. It's only when using half holing techniques that sometimes they can't produce it.  It's a straw man argument.  If the bore and the holes are big enough they do this phrase without half holing. In other words, use the kind of flutes Watazumi used and you can play Watazumi music without resorting to unnatural techniques.

The difficultly is in combining these factors:
1) Accurate pitch of all of the above mentioned notes
2) Strength of meri notes
3) Minimal adjustment of meri position and finger shading between each of those notes.

That's what makes the difference for us. It is terribly difficult to play that in tune, with shakuhachi not made for this repertoire.  ...

As for Watazumi, maybe two things (but I never met him, but, maybe..)
1) Maybe he had to adjust very much as he was playing. This gives 2 further points:
a) Most people are not as good as Watazumi at adjusting, and the result will be out of tune playing.
b) From the maker's perspective, we would like the techniques to be as easy to play as possible.

2) I heard that he could pick the best shakuhachi from his maker, out of hundreds of shakuhachi. Just hearsay, but sounds plausible enough. It could be that those which he chose were easier to play (those techniques, for example) than the others.

Anyway, I can imagine this debate becoming rather prolonged. But my own demands as a player when playing that repertoire do require quite special shakuhachi, including the way I want to express chi chi ru ... . I know for example for Taizan-ha it would be quite a different story - another chi chi ru which I really love, of quite different character.

Justin
http://senryushakuhachi.com/

Last edited by Justin (2008-08-03 12:55:47)

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#33 2008-08-03 12:54:57

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
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Re: Playing 'anything'

Justin wrote:

The difficultly is in combining these factors:
1) Accurate pitch of all of the above mentioned notes
2) Strength of meri notes
3) Minimal adjustment of meri position and finger shading between each of those notes.

That's what makes the difference for us. It is terribly difficult to play that in tune, with shakuhachi not made for this repertoire.  ...
/

Maybe I shouldn't take the bait. But there is no OBJECTIVE reference point for what is "in tune" or "out of tune" for those phrases because they are all meri notes. Western pitch is irrelevant here.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#34 2008-08-03 13:03:17

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
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Re: Playing 'anything'

Hi Brian
In our school (Chikushinkai) we have specific pitch requirements for meri notes. This has nothing to do with Western pitch. They are flatter than the Western pitch in our school. Generally I have observed that the pitch we are taught to play at, when I have measured it myself, has been approximately 25 cents flatter than the nearest Western equivalent pitch.

Justin
http://senryushakuhachi.com/

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#35 2008-08-03 13:20:38

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
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Re: Playing 'anything'

Justin wrote:

Hi Brian
In our school (Chikushinkai) we have specific pitch requirements for meri notes. This has nothing to do with Western pitch. They are flatter than the Western pitch in our school. Generally I have observed that the pitch we are taught to play at, when I have measured it myself, has been approximately 25 cents flatter than the nearest Western equivalent pitch.

Justin
http://senryushakuhachi.com/

Great. If you play wide bore flutes you can EASILY get those pitches without resorting to elaborate half holing on the 1 and 3 holes. Insisting on playing thin flutes causes the situation where you can say "many flutes can't produce these pitches". Instead one might think, "Many thin flutes can't produce these pitches, wonder why we try to play them."

Furthermore, there are several other schools who play that phrase using their flutes and it sounds just fine even if it does not meet the pitches of the Yokoyama school. They are playing fingerings, not pitches. The notation is fingering oriented, not pitch oriented. The music is about movement.

Yokoyama school, Jin Nyodo and Myoan all have that phrase and if you look at the schools in that order they get progressively sharper. Historically the pitches may get progressively flatter because it's reverse chronological order.

It is totally a matter of OPINION whether the Myoan, Jin Nyodo, or Yokoyama pitch references are superior.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#36 2008-08-03 14:35:43

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: Playing 'anything'

Tairaku wrote:

Furthermore, there are several other schools who play that phrase using their flutes and it sounds just fine even if it does not meet the pitches of the Yokoyama school.

This is the beauty of the variety of different schools. And the beauty also of the different shakuhachi suited to these different schools. Also shamisen are constructed differently for each different school. They may look all the same to an untrained eye, but there are a number of differences - each instrument crafted for the genre it will play.

Tairaku wrote:

They are playing fingerings, not pitches. The notation is fingering oriented, not pitch oriented. The music is about movement.

In our school we are to play intended pitches, using intended fingerings. The notation, being not an exact photograph of the music but a memory aid etc. does not specify the exact pitch of course. We learn that orally. This is the same in Satsuma biwa notation. The notation shows vague numbers for how much we put tension on the strings. It is so vague that often the same number in one place is a totally different pitch than it is in another place! But it is only a guide. However, the pitch is required to be controlled and deliberate, according to the melody which we have learned orally and memorised. The vocal melody is even more vague, being literally squiggles, showing the basic shape of the melody.
Again, the pitch system is not that used in Western music. However, it is precise and specific. The notation is just to jog our memory of what we have learned orally.



Tairaku wrote:

Yokoyama school, Jin Nyodo and Myoan all have that phrase and if you look at the schools in that order they get progressively sharper. Historically the pitches may get progressively flatter because it's reverse chronological order.

This is difficult to judge, since we don't have access to recordings of what people were really playing like in the Edo period. It is possible. Kurahashi-sensei taught me to basically not care too much about the pitch of meri in what he referred to as "ancient" honkyoku. But he was clear to play deep (deeper than Western pitch) meris for newer honkyoku, and for sankyoku.

Zenyoji Keisuke who is maybe the highest regarded Nyodo school player, plays deep meris. When I asked him why, and relating that to how Jin Nyodo played, he told me that Jin actually played deep meris when he was younger. He said that when he made the recordings, he was both old and tired, and therefore in bad condition, and that's why his meris were high in those recordings.

One of the reasonings to back up the proposition of meris being sharp in the Edo period, is that "you can't play deep meris on Edo period shakuhachi". This reasoning does not make sense to me, because I can play meri notes fine on Edo period shakuhachi, tsu meri down to the pitch of ro, etc. even on really old thin shakuhachi with 7.5mm holes.

Also, it is difficult to say about what is older than what. Taizan-ha is Myoan and was formed in the Meiji period by Higuchi Taizan. One of Higuchi Taizan's teachers was Miyagawa Nyozan. From his student Tani Kyochiku to his student Nishimura Koku we have Tani-ha, playing very deep meris. From another of his students Takahashi Kuzan we have people like Fujiyoshi Etsuzan playing deep meris. This is all way deeper than Taizan-ha.

None of this is to say any one way is better than any other way. More than anything I think it shows diversity between players, or between schools, and of course between opinions. Though all of this may to some of us be interesting, I think what is more relevant is what is the way we are being taught in our school. And then also what is the way we like. Everything else is more just academic.


Tairaku wrote:

It is totally a matter of OPINION whether the Myoan, Jin Nyodo, or Yokoyama pitch references are superior.

I guess there are some people who think in terms of superior and inferior. I think in terms of different styles. Like I said, I love also Taizan-ha chi chi ru, which is very different. I think it is great that there is diversity. This also serves to illustrate the differences in requirements between schools, and thus how it is quite appropriate for instruments to be made to specifically fit those requirements. As you have noted, this is an important requirement for Yokoyama's school, but for many other schools is simply not a concern. Other schools have other examples of this phenomenon too.

Justin
http://senryushakuhachi.com/

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#37 2008-08-03 17:46:07

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
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Re: Playing 'anything'

We can probably lay this issue to rest by saying that the pitches in that phrase are determined by a combination of personal taste, the flute, ability of the player, and whether or not we are taught to use half holing to play those phrases. And that there's more than one option. I personally like to avoid half holing as much as possible for another reason. My hands are huge. The more phrases and notes I can play without it the better! wink

As far as Edo flutes are concerned there is a huge range depending upon the individual flute. You really have to play them on a case by case basis and find out how they like to be played. If you do that it's an interesting window into the minds of the old time players and makers.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#38 2008-08-03 18:05:37

Lorka
Member
Registered: 2007-02-27
Posts: 303

Re: Playing 'anything'

Thanks Justin and Brian,

I have been following the discussion with great interest, though I find myself quite lost in parts.

Brian, can you perhaps discuss how you avoid using half-holing when using big bore flutes.  Do you accomplish the same thing by changing the angle of blowing, etc, and meri'ing?  I kinda understand what you are talking about, but would like to hear more.  I too, prefer to avoid half-holing (at the moment), as I sometimes lose the note that way, or the volume drops dramatically.  But I am still a newbie, and get hit with the zen stick when I am bad


Gravity is the root of grace

~ Lao Tzu~

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#39 2008-08-03 18:22:51

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Playing 'anything'

Tairaku wrote:

We can probably lay this issue to rest by saying...


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#40 2008-08-03 18:25:02

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Playing 'anything'

Hi Lorka,

The main reason you can play without half holing techniques and get acceptable pitches on large bored instruments is that the blowing hole on those flutes is bigger and gives you a wider range of meri/kari motion. So it's easier to get a low meri using only the head.

It's not a good idea to take what I say and try to put it into practice because some of the stuff I do is unconventional. I don't even hold the flute in the usual way, which you can see in my videos. This is because I have the swollen hands of a professional bass player. You should try to learn conventional technique from your teacher.

My friendly debate with Justin is about some very fine points of shakuhachi making, easy to get lost if you don't have experience with the flutes we're talking about and the music. Don't worry if you don't understand everything we're babbling about it would be difficult without access to those flutes. I have in-depth discussions with makers all the time, it's fun watching them developing their making philosophy. Justin wants to make flutes which have vintage tone yet play modern techniques with modern pitch references.

Ciao,

BR


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#41 2008-08-03 20:14:37

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: Playing 'anything'

Lorka wrote:

I too, prefer to avoid half-holing (at the moment), as I sometimes lose the note that way, or the volume drops dramatically.

Lorka,
       Keep in mind, in classical Japanese music a the lower volume for meri notes is a very good thing. In Western music we are trained to try to get an even sound up and down the instrument and that was so ingrained in me from my training that it took me ten years of shakuhachi playing to open up to the volume variations in a shakuhachi phrase. if you will listen carefully you'll often hear, for example, an almost inaudible tsu-meri followed by a stentorian ro. When you finally open up to that contrast your phrases really start to sound soulful in a classical Japanese way. Also, when you surrender to the soft meri, you find it easier to get the pitch because when you blow harder the pitch goes up. Let the note be soft and it will also be lower. Making assets out of the shakuhachi's weaknesses is what makes the shakuhachi so unique. This doesn't exactly go to what Brian and Justin are discussing but I thought it was important to not let that slip my. Meri notes can be fun when you get the right concept.


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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#42 2008-08-03 22:41:13

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: Playing 'anything'

Tairaku wrote:

We can probably lay this issue to rest by saying that the pitches in that phrase are determined by a combination of personal taste, the flute, ability of the player, and whether or not we are taught to use half holing to play those phrases.

Hi Brian
Yes. But I would like also to add one more factor, that being whether the player has a specific pitch they are wishing for. There may be ways of finding that without half holing, or even with half holing, if your aim is different, you can get a different result.
[edit] Just re-read your post and seen this is I guess covered under "personal taste".

Tairaku wrote:

And that there's more than one option. I personally like to avoid half holing as much as possible for another reason. My hands are huge. The more phrases and notes I can play without it the better! wink

Actually this fits quite well with what people want in our school. They want to half hole as little as possible in this technique, just because that makes it easier. You mentioned we half hole 1 and 3, but actually in "chi chi ru tsu meri", e.g. "chi ru tsu ru", we have 3 totally open. Then you find (or I might better say we find) that on most instruments, if you meri enough to get chi meri right (for our school) without half holing, and then close 2 (for ru(in Kinko called kan no u)), you have a ru which is flatter than re (when in our school it should be the same pitch as re). So these two are out of balance. The next step is to start shading 1. It's like a seesaw. We balance the shading of 1, with the meri position, until chi meri and ru are in perfect balance. That's the most important step.  And it will commonly be different for each instrument, so that is something we have to get used to the individual shakuhachi with.
Then the finest points are, when you get that, how loud is it? (I.e. is the meri position so heavy that the sound is too weak for the taste of the school?) and how easy is it to go from that to tsu meri.

This is all quite technical, but anyway that is what goes into both the choosing of shakuhachi for our school, and the making.

Tairaku wrote:

As far as Edo flutes are concerned there is a huge range depending upon the individual flute. You really have to play them on a case by case basis and find out how they like to be played. If you do that it's an interesting window into the minds of the old time players and makers.

The reason why I became interested in old shakuhachi was for exactly that. As an insight to the old music, and the old people. It's fascinating isn't it. I think it is a great privilege to have that opportunity. Brian you are so lucky to own so many fine examples! How about you then? What do you feel about meri on Edo shakuhachi? On many kinds of Edo shakuhachi I can still meri tsu to ro. Of course the tone is very different. It would not be the meri Chikushinkai is after, on the small holed ones. More Chikushinkai taste (for volume and tone) on the larger bored larger holed ones (maybe that is later Edo period, no?)

Jim Thompson wrote:

Lorka wrote:

I too, prefer to avoid half-holing (at the moment), as I sometimes lose the note that way, or the volume drops dramatically.

Lorka,
       Keep in mind, in classical Japanese music a the lower volume for meri notes is a very good thing. [...] Also, when you surrender to the soft meri, you find it easier to get the pitch because when you blow harder the pitch goes up.

Hi Jim
Actually in Chikushinkai, it is somewhat opposite. We try to get the meris as loud and powerful as possible. That is the main reason (along with tone colour) that I had to quit using the Tozan shakuhachi when I started studying with this school. The meris were weak.
As Brian has mentioned, on fatter shakuhachi meri is generally easier. That can help. As you have noted, when you play stronger, the meri pitch goes up. So we are forced to push ourselves more and more, to get our meri notes more powerful and correctly pitched (as always this means correct according to our school). That is one of the most difficult aspects of our honkyoku, and is the most common error of the students - meris too sharp. That makes it doubly important for them to have an instrument which can help them in this task. And, Brian is right, if they used fat jinashi, the meri pitch would be easier. But most of them want a different sound than that. So it is about trying to get that balance of what they want, an instrument with the tone colour and so on which they like, and easy, etc. It makes it a great challenge.

Justin
http://senryushakuhachi.com/

Last edited by Justin (2008-08-03 22:43:42)

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#43 2008-08-03 23:42:53

Daniel Ryudo
Shihan/Kinko Ryu
From: Kochi, Japan
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 355

Re: Playing 'anything'

Hi Justin,

I think it's great that you are making shakuhachi to suit the pitch requirements of particular schools (and I would like the chance to be able to try them out  someday...)  but there are people who have been attending Yokoyama sensei's workshops for years and manage to play dokyoku reasonably well using shakuhachi which are not made specifically for those pieces, so I guess I'm wondering how much of a difference you see between your flutes and those flutes which are not made specifically for playing dokyoku; is it noticeably easier to get a dai meri on your flutes, for example?  In regard to phrases like chi chi ru tsu meri, I'm also wondering along with Brian if you are setting up a straw man argument; is it really necessary for a shakuhachi maker to test for those phrases?   Also I'm wondering about the accuracy of your statement about most other shakuhachi makers not testing their flutes for dai meri.   I'm interested in the subject of shakuhachi makers in general as I've never seen much written information about the number of shakuhachi makers.  How many shakuhachi makers do you know and have they told you how they go about testing their flutes?  Do you have an estimate on how many (professional) shakuhachi makers there are in Japan?  I know several makers who have attended Yokoyama's workshops for years; they don't make flutes specifically for dokyoku but I think they can get those phrases and dai meri with no problem.  Also, could you elaborate on the main differences between flutes which are made specifically to play dokyoku and those which are made to play kinko pieces? (maybe you've already done so in the previous posts; must read those....)   Is it just that dokyoku are often played on longer flutes?  Of course I'll understand if you cannot reveal all your shakuhachi making secrets in public...

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#44 2008-08-04 00:46:45

Daniel Ryudo
Shihan/Kinko Ryu
From: Kochi, Japan
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 355

Re: Playing 'anything'

Hi Justin,

Just read your last post; I think that answers my question about Kinko and dokyoku flutes; you're striving for more powerful meris; I can see how that could make things difficult...

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#45 2008-08-04 09:19:51

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: Playing 'anything'

Daniel Ryudo wrote:

Hi Justin,

I think it's great that you are making shakuhachi to suit the pitch requirements of particular schools (and I would like the chance to be able to try them out  someday...)  but there are people who have been attending Yokoyama sensei's workshops for years and manage to play dokyoku reasonably well using shakuhachi which are not made specifically for those pieces, so I guess I'm wondering how much of a difference you see between your flutes and those flutes which are not made specifically for playing dokyoku; is it noticeably easier to get a dai meri on your flutes, for example?

Hi Daniel
The key point here is REASONABLY WELL. The workshops organised by our school are open to everyone. I think that is a very rare thing in the shakuhachi world. From that was created the international shakuhachi festivals, such as we just had in Australia. Everyone can come and learn. I hear that mostly it was Tozan players coming to learn back then, as they had no other chance to learn honkyoku. Now, of course they can use their own instruments. And, they can manage reasonably well, as you have said.

What I have been talking about is concerning disciples of the top teachers of our school. And the teachers themselves. They want to play as best they can, and so they require the best suited instruments. And when they are that serious, the teachers will do their best to guide them to play more than reasonably well. The aim is to master the music. So, you could say we are talking about an extreme. I myself have never been interested in making shakuhachi that are reasonably good. And the top disciples here also have wish to play reasonably well. They want to do what their teachers want them to do. That's why I would use the term disciple. So the conversation I have been having here is from this context.

As for dai meri, it is noticeably easier to play dai meri on my jiari shakuhachi than on many other jiari shakuhachi. On some of the fat jinashi I make, or those which Brian owns, dai meri will be easier still. But they will have very different characteristics in other respects. If it were only about dai meris, the fat jinashi would be better. But it is about many things. Some people prefer thinner shakuhachi (for the characteristics they have, and this includes me for some moods and some pieces) and I have to make our techniques, such as dai meri, workable on those instruments also.

Daniel Ryudo wrote:

In regard to phrases like chi chi ru tsu meri, I'm also wondering along with Brian if you are setting up a straw man argument; is it really necessary for a shakuhachi maker to test for those phrases?   Also I'm wondering about the accuracy of your statement about most other shakuhachi makers not testing their flutes for dai meri.

This is something which I heard, and then something which I noticed from talking to makers. But I may have jumped to the wrong conclusion. However, I think most shakuhachi schools do not use dai meri. Dai meri IS possible on other shakuhachi. But I am talking about it not just being possible, but being good enough for what we want. As I said, I had to stop using my Tozan shakuhachi precisely because it was insufficient in this respect (plus some others).

When I first came to Tokyo, I knew a maker whose shakuhachi I loved. I took a number of his shakuhachi to my then teacher Kakizakai-sensei. He picked them up, and one of the first things he tested was chi chi ru tsu meri. Not good. Since then I often tested this technique on shakuhachi from other makers. Noticing that they couldn't do it as we needed it, I talked about it to the makers and discovered that they did not test for this technique. That explained to me why.
Also, even if the maker were to test certain techniques on the shakuhachi, it depends on how well he can play them. Professionals play differently to less developed players. For example, one of Yamaguchi Shiro (a famous and great maker)'s making disciples used to take his shakuhachi to Yamaguchi Goro (Shiro's son) for him to test them. Goro would give him feedback, which was quite essential. because he could not play as a professional, he could not test how the shakuhachi would respond when played professionally. Perhaps it is like building an aeroplane, and then having test pilots fly it, then making the necessary modifications.

Of course the best way is for the maker to be a professional level player. As Araki Kodo said, you can only make as well as you can play. That's why people love shakuhachi of people like Yamaguchi Shiro, Araki Kodo etc. I guess. They were making to their requirements as players and artists.



Daniel Ryudo wrote:

I'm interested in the subject of shakuhachi makers in general as I've never seen much written information about the number of shakuhachi makers.  How many shakuhachi makers do you know and have they told you how they go about testing their flutes?  Do you have an estimate on how many (professional) shakuhachi makers there are in Japan?  I know several makers who have attended Yokoyama's workshops for years; they don't make flutes specifically for dokyoku but I think they can get those phrases and dai meri with no problem.  Also, could you elaborate on the main differences between flutes which are made specifically to play dokyoku and those which are made to play kinko pieces? (maybe you've already done so in the previous posts; must read those....)   Is it just that dokyoku are often played on longer flutes?  Of course I'll understand if you cannot reveal all your shakuhachi making secrets in public...

How many makers in Japan? Someone once told me their estimate, which was something in between 30 and 100 (I don't remember exactly). I know about 10. Different makers have different ways of testing. Ultimately most that I know will play music with them once they are near being okay, and check like that. That's why it makes a big difference what music the maker plays.

Firstly, in our school we don't say dokyoku, we just say koten honkyoku. But as people in the U.S. call them dokyoku, I may as well use this term you are familiar with. So, we usually prefer to use longer shakuhachi for dokyoku, maybe from 2.1 up. Kinko is mostly played with 1.8, 2.0, 1.7, 1.9. Sometimes shorter. Then, for dokyoku a lot of people will study with a 1.8. So the 1.8 will have to be able to play the dokyoku music, even if we would usually not perform it on a 1.8. Other than that, as you said in your next post I think I answered you already. but one more thing is the tone colour preference. Each individual has different preferences for tone colour. As I mentioned, a number of Yokoyama's students tried the same selection of my shakuahchi (with different tone colours) and had different preferences. So although I myself might prefer one shakuahchi's tone colour for playing Kinko-ryu, and another for dokyoku, it is very possible (as happened here yesterday) that a dokyoku player will prefer the one which I play Kinko music on and so on. So these two genres do not have to interfere with each other. However, there may be some more "wild" shakuhachi that I will use for dokyoku which might not fit the sound I want for the Kodo-kai style of Kinko ryu, for example. Like how a tank is really great off-road - excellant! But really not what I would choose for the motorway, not for the inner-city. Etc.

Well, I have been enjoying spending time here on the forum.

Best wishes

Justin
http://senryushakuhachi.com/

Last edited by Justin (2008-08-04 09:30:49)

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#46 2008-08-04 09:31:19

Yungflutes
Flutemaker/Performer
From: New York City
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 1061
Website

Re: Playing 'anything'

Daniel Ryudo wrote:

Hi Justin,

Just read your last post; I think that answers my question about Kinko and dokyoku flutes; you're striving for more powerful meris; I can see how that could make things difficult...

Hey Daniel, Yes! Anything to do with Meris makes things difficult! smile

All the best, Perry


"A hot dog is not an animal." - Jet Yung

My Blog/Website on the art of shakuhachi...and parenting.
How to make an Urban Shakuhachi (PVC)

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#47 2008-08-04 10:02:11

Daniel Ryudo
Shihan/Kinko Ryu
From: Kochi, Japan
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 355

Re: Playing 'anything'

Hi Justin,

Thanks for the very informative reply and good luck with your shakuhachi making; it sounds like a great challenge, as you noted.  Yes, I realize I should say koten honkyoku as I've been attending yearly workshops in Bisei-cho for the last decade; I guess I'm picking up bad habits from seeing the word dokyoku frequently on the Internet smile  Last time at Bisei I had a short lesson with Kakizakai sensei, on 2.4, and the first comment I got was that my meris were too high;  the dai meris with that particular flute are hard to get though I've gotten a little better at it.  I know several professional Japanese makers in different parts of Japan; one of them knows three other pro makers in his city (not Osaka or Tokyo; maybe you can guess...); and then there are the semi-pro makers which I suppose there are even more of, including some professional players who make shakuhachi but whose main thing is playing.  And yes, as you mentioned, the best thing is probably to be a professional level player making shakuhachi as if you can't play some things, such as the highest notes in the kan register, how are you going to be able to test shakuhachi for them; interesting story you told in that regard about Yamaguchi Shiro's disciple. One of my students, named Shawshank, is planning to be at the workshop this month in Bisei, so maybe you'll run into him.  You're lucky to have the opportunity to get constant feedback from such great teachers in making your flutes.

Cheers,

Daniel

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#48 2008-08-04 10:26:38

Daniel Ryudo
Shihan/Kinko Ryu
From: Kochi, Japan
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 355

Re: Playing 'anything'

Hi Perry,

Justin has been saying that most shakuhachi makers don't play Yokoyama Katsuya's honkyoku and consequently don't test their flutes for dai meri.  Can we hear another maker's view on this topic?  And are you an exception to that rule?

Enjoy your summer; the Yosakoi festival is coming up this weekend in Kochi; lots of dancing in the streets.
Best Wishes,

Daniel

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#49 2008-08-04 10:35:10

nyokai
shihan
From: Portland, ME
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 613
Website

Re: Playing 'anything'

Dai meri's aren't unique to Yokoyama's and Watazumi's versions of koten honkyoku. They appear in the original Meian-style pieces as well.

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#50 2008-08-04 11:25:34

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: Playing 'anything'

Hi Daniel
I was more refering to the chi chi ru tsu meri pattern of Yokoyama's school than the dai meri. But as for dai meri, I am talking about extended notes of kan no tsu dai meri at the pitch of ro, and kan no ro dai meri at the pitch of ri.

Hi Phil
Yes, surely they are not unique to our received lineage of the koten honkyoku! But I think our school is perhaps the toughest, or one of the toughest, about the depth of pitch and power of these notes. Anyway, many good old Meian shakuhachi can play dai meri fine. It's more the modern styles of shakuhachi that have trouble with that particular technique.

Justin
http://senryushakuhachi.com/

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