Mujitsu and Tairaku's Shakuhachi BBQ

World Shakuhachi Discussion / Go to Live Shakuhachi Chat

You are not logged in.


Tube of delight!

#1 2008-08-23 12:02:34

Toby
Shakuhachi Scientist
From: out somewhere circling the sun
Registered: 2008-03-15
Posts: 405

Gagaku music

Not really about shakuhachi, but I thought y'all might get a kick out of a story about gagaku (traditional court) music written by a Japanese music historian that I read some years ago. If you have heard gagaku music, you know that it is about as exciting as staring at a wall and as melodic as dying geese. It is to modern music what Noh theatre is to Broadway.

It turns out that about 1000 years ago visiting Japanese scholars to the Sung court  were entranced with the popular music of that age in China and brought it back to Japan, but slowed it down to a tempo of about 7 bpm. By contrast, the slowest common tempi in Western music, Lento and Largo, bottom out at about 40 bpm.

So this turgid and solemn music is actually derived from bright Chinese folk tunes, slowed down until paint dries faster than the notes change.

Just thought that was fun...

Toby

Offline

 

#2 2008-08-23 12:20:32

baian
Member
Registered: 2006-03-28
Posts: 83

Re: Gagaku music

I did not know that.  smile

Offline

 

#3 2008-08-23 18:45:53

nyokai
shihan
From: Portland, ME
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 613
Website

Re: Gagaku music

Toby wrote:

If you have heard gagaku music, you know that it is about as exciting as staring at a wall and as melodic as dying geese.

I love gagaku, and I find it thrilling (as well as melodic).

Toby wrote:

It is to modern music what Noh theatre is to Broadway.

And that's a bad thing???

Toby wrote:

It turns out that about 1000 years ago visiting Japanese scholars to the Sung court  were entranced with the popular music of that age in China and brought it back to Japan, but slowed it down to a tempo of about 7 bpm.

The actual story of gagaku's origins is quite a bit more complex than that. Even as broad-stroke a resource as Malm's _Japanese Music_ will give you a very different (and more accurate) picture than what you present.

Offline

 

#4 2008-08-23 20:07:30

madoherty
Moderator
Registered: 2008-03-15
Posts: 366

Re: Gagaku music

I find that Gagaku is one of the most interesting and exciting forms of music I have ever heard.  I find it incredible how close it sounds to a lot of 20th Century avant garde music- particularly "digital minimalism".  Its ancientness, microtonal characteristics, and utilization of silence (ma) are striking.  In my mind gagaku has more to do with humanity's musical future than its more recent past (my opnion). 

I have been working hard at crafting hichiriki for the past year or so (not easy but probably not as difficult as crafting shakuhachi).

Gaga for Gagaku,
Michael

Offline

 

#5 2008-08-23 20:17:09

Glenn Swann
Member
From: Central New Jersey
Registered: 2008-03-01
Posts: 151
Website

Re: Gagaku music

I also love gagaku. Was entranced the 1st time I heard it. I think you just need to pay attention to it, to appreciate its beauty.

interesting article with some info about gagaku's origins, from John Thompson, an amazing guqin player and historian...
http://www.silkqin.com/11misc/gagaku.htm


I followed rivers, I followed orders,I followed prophets, I followed leaders
I followed rivers, I followed highways,I followed conscience,
I followed dreamers... And I'm back here,
and I'm back here... At the edge of the sky       (New Model Army)

Offline

 

#6 2008-08-23 20:30:55

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Gagaku music

Gagaku is truly amazing in the way they reduce the melodies to their essence and superimpose the different parts. Great stuff!


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

Offline

 

#7 2008-08-23 21:24:02

baian
Member
Registered: 2006-03-28
Posts: 83

Re: Gagaku music

and of course there is this....

http://www.komuso.com/pieces/Somaku_Sha.html

Offline

 

#8 2008-08-23 21:39:23

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Gagaku music

"Somakusha" is in the Jin Nyodo repertoire although he didn't record it. It is in his notation. "Etenraku" is another gagaku melody frequently arranged for shakuhachi.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

Offline

 

#9 2008-08-23 21:50:18

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: Gagaku music

I'd heard large Gagaku groups before and had not been particularly compelled, but when I was in Nara last September they were having a festival and were playing what I was told was Gagaku music through speakers set up through the whole downtown area all day. The music was about a 3 piece group,  a drum, some sort of string instrument and I think some sort of double reed. The music was deep, dark and beautiful. The mood was delightfully haunting. Can some one steer me to some small ensemble Gagaku music or am I wrong about what I was listening to. It sounded like music from the grave. Absolutely wonderful. No morbidness intended.


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

Offline

 

#10 2008-08-23 21:55:06

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Gagaku music

I thought gagaku is specifically large ensemble but if you hear about this small ensemble stuff please let us know.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

Offline

 

#11 2008-08-23 22:27:36

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: Gagaku music

I thought it was Gagaku music because of a cross language conversation with somebody on the street. I thought we were communicating but you know how that goes. What ever it was, it was definetly ancient and the guys in the festivities at night were wearing those high Gagaku hats that look like Tibetan lama hats. I wouldn't mind hearing some more. If I find out, Brian, I'll make sure you're in.


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

Offline

 

#12 2008-08-23 23:46:15

madoherty
Moderator
Registered: 2008-03-15
Posts: 366

Re: Gagaku music

For a smaller gagaku ensemble sound check out the Kyoto Imperial Court Music Orchestra.  I have one of their recordings, "Gagaku- Japanese Court Music", and it sounds like it has quite a few less instruments in the wind section for a leaner sound.  I am not sure if this is what you are interested in, however.  All of the standard gagaku instruments are represented on the record, not just a trio, although there is a ryuteki/shinobue solo, and a drum piece- both of which I think are not exactly traditional, though, there are a few forms of gagaku and I do not claim to be an expert on any in terms of repertoire.

Here is the web address for a youtube video of a gagaku type trio that I love: http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=bC0YJ5M_WWE

Offline

 

#13 2008-08-24 01:40:22

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: Gagaku music

The beat is slow, which may be unlike modern music, but for me the special point is the sound texture. That's the point which attracted me so vividly to gagaku. I have also heard some old field recordings of some temple music in China, perhaps from before the communist's time. It sounded very much like gagaku. Except more random. Some of the best music I have ever heard. interestingly the conceptual framework underlying the music seemed entirely different from any modern music I have heard.

Justin
http://senryushakuhachi.com/

Offline

 

#14 2008-08-24 04:15:58

dust
Member
From: Albion
Registered: 2007-09-08
Posts: 91

Re: Gagaku music

Etenraku

Live video at The Museum of Zen Culture and History at Komazawa University in May, 2005. Theremin by Yoko Onishi and Ryuteki by Tomoko Tonosaki.

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=THexrV6FGrw


This is beautiful...

Last edited by dust (2008-08-24 04:46:21)


imperfect, impermanent, and incomplete.

Offline

 

#15 2008-08-24 04:57:45

marek
Member
From: Czech Republic
Registered: 2007-03-02
Posts: 189
Website

Re: Gagaku music

I have heard the different schools of gagaku were unified at one point history, before that the music was much diverse. Anyway, we are going to have a lecture on gagaku by David Bidlo Phd. So I will post a recording in sometime.´
I have heard the music live just once and I must say I love the mouth organ (sho), the guys I heard were from the Shosoin temple.

Cheers.


In passionate silence, the sound is what I'm after.

Offline

 

#16 2008-08-24 06:51:05

Toby
Shakuhachi Scientist
From: out somewhere circling the sun
Registered: 2008-03-15
Posts: 405

Re: Gagaku music

Obviously I am in the minority here as regards the aesthetics of gagaku ;-), but this probably has a lot to do with my opinion of the Japanese Imperial Agency.

I will check out Malm.

BTW the hichiriki, along with its Korean cousin the piri, are the only two (AFAIK) extant double-reed cylindrical-bore instruments. These, like the clarinet and the panpipes, do not sound the even harmonics. The hichiriki, though, unlike the piri, has a very large reed and a very short body, so that the vibrational modes depend very greatly on the compliance of the reed, and the performer thus has great control over the intonation. The thing I find most fascinating about Japanese wind instruments (excluding the sho), is the great variety of expression and tonal color possible with them. I can think of no other culture with comparable instruments. Shakuhachi is, of course, king in this regard. The nokan, too, as a side-blown instrument, seems quite unique in sacrificing melody for expression.

FWIW,

Toby

Last edited by Toby (2008-08-24 23:03:55)

Offline

 

#17 2008-08-24 07:09:43

nyokai
shihan
From: Portland, ME
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 613
Website

Re: Gagaku music

Jim Thompson wrote:

The music was about a 3 piece group,  a drum, some sort of string instrument and I think some sort of double reed.

Sounds like this could have been kagura (Shinto ritual music). There are several kinds of music that use some of the same instruments as gagaku.

Offline

 

#18 2008-08-24 09:47:29

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
Historical Zen Mod
From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
Website

Re: Gagaku music

nyokai wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:

The music was about a 3 piece group,  a drum, some sort of string instrument and I think some sort of double reed.

Sounds like this could have been kagura (Shinto ritual music). There are several kinds of music that use some of the same instruments as gagaku.

Yes must have been music for some Kagura if there was 3 instruments or so. When I was in Japan at first i lived on the grounds of a Shinto shrine with my teacher as a uchi deshi and they used the name Gagaku was actually just for the music even if it was only 3 instruments made for use in varous Kagura/神楽 dances done in honor of various kami/Spirits or for some festivals.


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

Offline

 

#19 2008-08-24 10:46:46

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: Gagaku music

Gishin wrote:

nyokai wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:

The music was about a 3 piece group,  a drum, some sort of string instrument and I think some sort of double reed.

Sounds like this could have been kagura (Shinto ritual music). There are several kinds of music that use some of the same instruments as gagaku.

Yes must have been music for some Kagura if there was 3 instruments or so. When I was in Japan at first i lived on the grounds of a Shinto shrine with my teacher as a uchi deshi and they used the name Gagaku was actually just for the music even if it was only 3 instruments made for use in varous Kagura/神楽 dances done in honor of various kami/Spirits or for some festivals.

Thanks fellas.  That gives me a direction to look.


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

Offline

 

#20 2008-08-24 12:32:37

Daniel Ryudo
Shihan/Kinko Ryu
From: Kochi, Japan
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 355

Re: Gagaku music

I also like gagaku.  Tonight I watched a little kagura dancing at Tosa Jinja's annual end of summer matsuri, just a ten minute walk up the road from where I live; Tosa Jinja's one of the oldest Shrines in the prefecture, dating back to about the 11th century or so.   Tomorrow they'll have a shrine procession which will include four or five musicians playing hichiriki, sho, ryuteki, and a small drum.  There will also be guys pulling a wheeled cart with ropes which contains a massive old drum and hitting it with a staff about a meter and a half in length  (I was told the drum was about 500 years old).   The musicians are also members of a gagaku group in Kochi.  After they take the mikoshi to a smaller shrine a kilometer or so away, the shrine maidens do several Kagura dances, then the procession returns to the main shrine and the kanushi (Shinto priests) do a purification ritual.  Some years back I got lucky and was asked to join the procession as a player of horagai -- there were also guys carrying ancient spears, wearing tengu and oni masks, carrying a sacred tree that everyone tries to grab branches from once it exits the shrine grounds, and of course, carrying the heavy mikoshi, or portable god's shrine, all the participants in conical black hats and brown and white haori/hakama, except for the gagaku musicians  who are dressed in golden attire.  After we got back to the main shrine following the long walk in the summer heat and installed the mikoshi there was about an hour long ceremony where the priests said prayers, took food and sake offerings up to the back of the shrine, and did a lot of waving of sacred tree branches while all of us in the procession were sitting in the main shrine building giving set responses to the priests at various points during the ceremony; I was also admiring the huge coiled dragon painted on the ceiling of the shrine; while the kanushi were doing the rituals, storm clouds started gathering and just at the moment the ceremony ended there was thunder and lightning, with the latter striking quite close by accompanied by a massive downpour, the grounds flooding up to several inches for about 15 minutes, then the weather suddenly cleared.  Even in dry summers without much rain we always seem to get a good rain on that particular afternoon.  The gagaku musicians were also playing their music throughout much of that ceremony in the shrine building and it was really eerie with the music, the priests doing their chanting, and then the wind picking up, the skies darkening and all the weather effects coming in.  Perhaps the old Japanese gods haven't yet forsaken this part of the country...

Last edited by Daniel Ryudo (2008-08-24 12:46:40)

Offline

 

#21 2008-08-24 15:58:33

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Gagaku music

Thanks, Daniel.  Great description (not that I've seen any of this, live, but still--great description).


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

Offline

 

#22 2008-08-25 02:05:20

Daniel Ryudo
Shihan/Kinko Ryu
From: Kochi, Japan
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 355

Re: Gagaku music

Thanks, Ed.  I'm going to try to leave work early today to try and catch the gagaku, and also to see if it rains...not a cloud in the sky now.  Lots of cicada music going on.

Last edited by Daniel Ryudo (2008-08-25 02:08:15)

Offline

 

#23 2008-08-25 03:05:58

Kiku Day
Shakuhachi player, teacher and ethnomusicologist
From: London, UK & Nørre Snede, DK
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 922
Website

Re: Gagaku music

Nice story, Dan! Almost felt like I was there.
I miss the festivals in Japan. When I lived there I used to be a festival-maniac, hunting them down everywhere. I really like the small local festivals.
Let us know how the ceremony effected the weather this year! smile


I am a hole in a flute
that the Christ's breath moves through
listen to this music
Hafiz

Offline

 

#24 2008-08-25 22:27:21

Daniel Ryudo
Shihan/Kinko Ryu
From: Kochi, Japan
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 355

Re: Gagaku music

Hi Kiku.  The weather didn't change right after the ceremony yesterday but heavy rain started early this morning and still continues.  Maybe it had something to do with the fact that there were only two gagaku musicians this year, a sho player and a player of ryuteki; they were playing throughout much of the ceremony smile.  I watched the event yesterday with a German player of shakuhachi who attended the first European Shakuhachi Summer School in London.

Last edited by Daniel Ryudo (2008-08-25 22:28:31)

Offline

 

#25 2008-08-25 23:00:32

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Gagaku music

Ryudo, I love your reports from the front line. Say "hi" to our Summer School compatriot.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

Offline

 

Board footer

Powered by PunBB
© Copyright 2002–2005 Rickard Andersson

Google