Mujitsu and Tairaku's Shakuhachi BBQ

Yep, anything as long as it is a jinuri !
Apparently I have been biased when doing the data collecting in Japan and totally forgot about jinuri (or rather my PhD was at a point where I didn't see that jinuri measurements were necessary too). So yes! Any jinuri with or without hanko, names and which-ever length would be much appreciated!

Perhaps you could take your measuring gear with you to Prague and measure people's flutes. They may only think you are almost as crazy as me!
And perhaps it will make me share my favourite Croyden Gear out a little more easily!

Last edited by Kiku Day (2008-08-25 11:29:19)

Horst, you are going to Prague?I should have gone too...
Measuring may be against zennatur, but I need to do it for my research... sorry. Many makers walk around measuring shakuhachi, so measuring is no new phenomenon to shakuhachi. I am not measuring to create the ultimate shakuhachi.
But I would be very interested to know welche Wurst must nicht lang werden? And why not more than 1.3? Is that because it would be uncomfortable to eat?

Just want to say thank you to the people who have sent me emails with measurements.
I could easily use more!

Toby wrote:

Kiku--

I will try to send some measurements soon. Are you interested in all sizes or only 1.8s?

I'm sorry to have to say this, but the most important measurements would be those of the bore: this is what has changed most over time. I do know, however, that most people do not have the tools to do these measurements.

More later.

Toby

Hi Toby.

That is extremely nice of you. I am looking forward for the measurements and I am interested in all sizes as long as they are jinuri.
I am really grateful to everybody who have sent me measurements! Thank you all!
The forum is at its best when we can help each other.

I will be looking into the bore shapes of the 60 modern jinashi shakuhachi I have x-rayed as that is my main topic - apart from the practical side which is playing new pieces. These x-ray pictures I am comparing with the x-rays of Edo period jinashi that Shimura et al have taken and with some x-rays Tairaku has taken of some excellent shakuhachi from his collection.
I didn't think of that it could be useful to compare some of the measurements of jinashi shakuhachi with measurements from jinuri when I was on fieldwork.... and this is the reason for why I have to ask the shakuhachi community for help.
The measurements of the holes do give me an indication of the bore shape but they surely don't tell me the whole story, of course.

Toby wrote:

If you measure from the bottom hole around the edge to hole 1 you are getting the thickness of the bottom of the culm into the equation, which has no bearing on anything but aesthetics, so I'm a bit confused.

Just to be precise, when you specify the distance between the holes, do you mean from the center of one hole to the center of the other, or the top of the lower hole to the bottom of the upper one.

I just want to get this right.

I was wondering about this as well. Doesn't make complete sense to me, either.

Kiku,
Two final (I hope) questions:  1) In measuring from hole 4 to the top of the flute: should the upper limit be the highest edge of the utaguchi (before the dip) or the bottom of the dip? I assume the former...

and 2) For an overall length, should the measurement be from the bottom of the root to that same point along the front or the side? This can be significantly different with curved bamboo.

Best,

Toby

Toby wrote:

Two final (I hope) questions:  1) In measuring from hole 4 to the top of the flute: should the upper limit be the highest edge of the utaguchi (before the dip) or the bottom of the dip? I assume the former...

1) You are right; the former

Toby wrote:

and 2) For an overall length, should the measurement be from the bottom of the root to that same point along the front or the side? This can be significantly different with curved bamboo.

I usually do it on the front side, but I will try to follow the curve so that the measured result is as close as possible to the length of the bamboo. And again as 1) I measure up to the highest edge of the utaguchi.

Yooper wrote:

Are any of those x-rays available for viewing online?

I haven't finished the analysis of the x-ray photos yet, so I haven't put anything up in public yet. But you are right, it might be a good idea to put some online. It will have to be when I am finished with the writing... so sometime early next year. It is a good idea, Yooper. Thanks for mentioning it.

One more for today. My favorite 1.8, made around the end of the 19th or beginning of the 20th century. Nice solid piece of bamboo with a uniquely wide and beautifully symmetrical root. Very large bore, but plays well and solidly up to the top of dai kan, and, most surprisingly, with good intonation at A = 440. You can see where the bamboo skin has actually been dissolved by body acids where the finger rests between holes 1 & 2.




• Maker: Chikudo (Meiji jidai)
• Date of measurements taken: 2008/09/12
• Length of the whole flute:  545 (1.8 shaku)
• Distance between bottom hole to hole 1: 113.10
• Distance between hole 1 and 2: 42.93
• Distance between hole 2 and 3: 43.03
• Distance between hole 3 and 4: 44.57
• Distance between hole 4 and top of flute: 254
• Distance between hole 5 and top of the flute: 217
• Depth of mouthpiece: 4.2
• Angle of mouthpiece: 27.5 degrees
• Width of mouthpiece (from where the little dip begins to the other side): 16.1
• Weight of the flute: 424 grams
• Outer circumference (measured 10 cm down from the top): 111.55
• Width of hole 1 vertical: 11.62
• Width of hole 1 horizontal: 10.50
• Width of hole 2 vertical: 11.22
• Width of hole 2 horizontal: 10.78
• Width of hole 3 vertical: 11.48
• Width of hole 3 horizontal: 9.76
• Width of hole 4 vertical: 11.44
• Width of hole 4 horizontal: 10.75
• Width of hole 5 vertical: 11.44
• Width of hole 5 horizontal: 10.65
• Bottom hole vertical: 18.18
• Bottom hole horizontal: 18.18
• Top hole vertical: 20.93
• Top hole horizontal: 21.88

Last edited by Toby (2008-09-12 11:28:32)

I have never studied shakuhachi and so am a complete ignoramus when it comes to the traditions, let's get that straight here at the beginning. I defer to all who actually know what they are talking about. I, like Jeff, assume that the dai-kan starts at third ro and continues as high as you can go.

I like this fingering chart: http://www.shakuhachi.com/Y-FingeringChart-p1.html

The only note not included in that chart (see also page 2) that I know is ro4, which (on a good flute) can be found by blowing like a maniac with all fingers down except LH index finger.

I am not allowed to practice the dai-kan when my wife is at home...

Toby

Actually I am quite adept up there, and can play them quietly and well--legacy of years of playing flute and piccolo--but my wife just hates high notes, which I love.

Acoustically speaking, getting the phase relationship of the jet adjusted so that the high notes will sound requires adjusting both its velocity and length. You can achieve it just by adjusting velocity, but it varies as the square of the frequency, so without adjusting jet length (as in "meri") you will definitely wake up all the neighborhood dogs, and be sharp to boot. Shading the length increases end correction at the top, lowering pitch, and since it has a linear relationship with frequency allows you to blow much less hard.  This is made even more important by the fact that all end-blown flutes play the highest notes up to 25 cents sharp. The only thing worse than loud and shrill is loud and shrill and sharp.

Jet size affects loudness, and the rub is that as you decrease your lip aperture to play more softly it becomes ever more critical to have adequate control to place it properly at the utaguchi edge. Beginners usually do not have that control, and therefore blow big, which is what shatters the crystal...

I agree that it is helpful to "previsualize" the sound, which gets kinesthetic memory going. One of the great woodwind teachers, when asked how to learn to play beautifully, said: "Imagine the sound you want to make, and then make it."

Actually due to acoustic limitations arising from the small holes of the shakuhachi (in relation to its bore size), it is impossible to get much above ro4. Even the concert flute with its large holes can only get a few notes above that.

BTW when you speak decibel ratings: at what distance from the mic and with what mic?

Toby

Last edited by Toby (2008-09-13 09:55:33)

Jeff Cairns wrote:

As a final question, do any third octave notes have different names than in the previous two octaves? 
cheers.

I'm researching this info also. What I have so far:

hole order 54321, O - open, C - closed, H - half

Do-Re-Mi name - Fingering - Ro-Tsu_Re name
Eb - OOCOC - Ni Shi Go No Ha;
Eb - OCOCC - San No Hah kari
E - OCOOC - Yon No Hah (or Shi);
or
E - HCOOO;
Gb - CCCCO - Tsu Dai Kan;
G -CCCOO - Re Dai Kan;
or
G - COCCO;
Ab - COCOO - San Go No Re;
A - COCCC - Chi Dai Kan;
Bb - OCCCO - Hi No meri Dai Kan

In this acoustic regime, fingering can be *very* flute/player dependent For instance, for Chi Dai Kan, I use CCOCO which theoretically should be Bb, but it's so flat it's really close to A.

Research continues...

And in addition to Bruce's list, after Bb I continue on my tozan with:
B - OCOOO
C - CCCOC
Db - COCOC

I know there is also a D"" played like CCCCO, but I don't (yet?) succeed in getting its sound out.