Mujitsu and Tairaku's Shakuhachi BBQ

jdanza wrote:

Zen is an inner realization. If you've realized Zen it doesn't mater whether you are busking on a subway station or swimming in your private pool. Those are all mind trips and they can be enjoyed as the movie they are.
If you are looking to live a Zen life make sure you find it inside yourself first, whatever your present circumstance is. The outer form will take care of itself later.
It seems your mind has made a picture of what the Shakuhachi and Zen life "should" be. A hut, bowl and flute are great, but take a deep breath and check out where you are right here and now. There's no more Zen than that... then blow your flute and say... Thank You... there's no more prayer than that.

Dont get me wrong this post is not about getting on your case in particular. It is mostly about the over use of the term ZEN. It seems we tend to use the term Zen for so many stuff these days for wahtever we want to make sound new age or mystical etc.

When it comes to the word Zen it all comes down to this definition or something along those lines. thats it thats all.

**** From Wikipedia
"Zen", pronounced [zeɴ] in Japanese, is the Sino-Japanese reading of the Chinese character 禅, which is pronounced [tʂʰán] (pinyin: chán) in modern Standard Mandarin Chinese, but was likely pronounced [d​͡ʑen] in Middle Chinese.[1] The term "zen" is in fact a contraction of the seldom-used long form zenna (禅那; Mandarin: chánnà), a derivation from the Sanskrit term dhyāna(ध्यान) (pali: jhāna), which refers to a specific type or aspect of meditation.[2] The Sanskrit word is derived from the Indo-European root *dheiə-, meaning "see, look". While "Zen" is the name most often used in the English-speaking world, it is also known as Chan in mainland China, Seon in Korea, and Thiền in Vietnam and dhyāna in India.
******

The usage of the term Zen as non asian people usually use it for has nothing to do or is even near the usage we see in east Asia. I have never heard a Japanese monk or layperson saying how Zen of you or wow this is so Zen etc etc... the same goes in China.

We should be mindfull of this in the fact that we are using it as a generic term that usually does not mean shit other than trying to say cool in some asian way.

edosan wrote:

Get used to it Gishin.

This ain't Asia, and never will be.

If you want 'proper usage', go back to Asia.

What about NO!

The point is the word is most of the time never used for what it is and what it should be. Since we are supposed to be literated human beings we should use words for what they are so at least they have a real meaning. Most times the term Zen is used outside of Asia  as I pointed out previously to just sound cool in some Asian way.

Why should we accept mediocrity and propagation of a wrongfull or biased usage of a word or term?

Yooper wrote:

jdanza, thank you for your posts.  You speak to my heart.  Whether you speak to anyone else's dictionary could not concern me less.

Gishin, I think most of us respect your intelligence and your education.  You're a tremendously valuable resource for people interested in serious scholarship.  I even think you mean well.  But laypeople ought to be able to have a casual conversation without being constantly smacked on the knuckles by the ruler of the language police.  This isn't your Zen Forum.  If you're going to be SO annoyed SO often by what others have to say maybe you should abandon discussions and just have your own blog. 

Peace.

Its not my Zen forum but I can express myself as much as you do, Dont you think so? This is to help and give people a chance and some insight into thinking that humm... hey maybe the word Zen is not really related to what i usually use it for etc or even give them the smack to read a bit and see for themsleves what it is truly all about.

Just think about it for a second guys and stop worrying if Gishin is picking on you! Do you really not think the word ZEN is being used in the wrong way MOST of the time?!? I mean they use it to describe yogurt for God's sake!!! Perhaps because I said it you won't feel like being smacked or your back' s against the wall or whatever and you'll take a moment to think about it. Seriously.

Gishin wrote:

edosan wrote:

Get used to it Gishin.

This ain't Asia, and never will be.

If you want 'proper usage', go back to Asia.

What about NO!

The point is the word is most of the time never used for what it is and what it should be. Since we are supposed to be literated human beings we should use words for what they are so at least they have a real meaning. Most times the term Zen is used outside of Asia  as I pointed out previously to just sound cool in some Asian way.

Why should we accept mediocrity and propagation of a wrongfull or biased usage of a word or term?

from, 'Women Practicing Buddhism' Wisdom Publications 2007
.
Jane Hirshfield
"I feel Zen and poetry are complimentary to one another in that both are acts of attention. Here is my summary of all Buddhism in seven words: 'Everything changes. Everything is connected. Pay attention'. After a while, I realized you don't even need the first five words, because, in fact, if you're paying attention, you'll see that everything changes and everything is connected. Anything we human beings do well, with our full energy and our full doubt and our full intention of pressing further, will have it's basis in the cultivation of attention. In this way, poetry and Zen practice are the same."
.
.
.
IMHO, this describes every Chinese and Japanese Buddhist poem I've ever read or piece of bamboo I've wrecked or made into something decent to play and why I sit and focus on the little flaw in the floor. And it's the Buddhism in Seven Words Slogan Things, ideas, language, morph and transpose themselves even crossing oceans back and forth, mish and mash.  I love that this was written by a 'western' woman who studied at the SFZC. My €2...

Hello Gishin
No offense taken. I can relate to your concern. We have cheapened and bastardized many wonderful words and concepts in our "instant reward", "The Secret" culture. However, just like the Japanese can play guitar (or, in my own backyard... salsa music!) and idolize western values, the West can adopt Eastern concepts and make them it's own. I do have translations of old texts where they refer to "realizing Zen" (hippie translator? ), and I did assume that even when it is an abstract and maybe indeed inaccurate usage of the word, it would be understood in the way I meant it (and I still believe that, so I will refrain from boring philosophical explanations that nobody needs). We are, whether we like it or not, living in the  "Global Village", and a lot of terms, traditions and values are being redefined and, for better or worse, universalized. I tend to concentrate on the persons purity of intention rather than the accuracy of their language, and, as my Tibetan teachers always stressed, always keep a sense of humor about the Whole thing... or in a more hippie fashion: don't let the fools bugger your Zen, dude

Hi Jdanza
" The most ancient definition of zen is found in a Chinese text "The annals of the transmission of the Lamp" (10th century). It is "A specific transmission outside writings, no dependence with respect to words and letters ·""

This seems to go along with what you are saying. Gishin, the quote you posted from Wikepedia actually did not give a definition of Zen, but only explained the derivation of the word, back to the Sanskrit word jhana. Jhana means a kind of concentration, which in itself will not bring one to enlightenment. Don't you think that although Zen historically derived from this word, it took on a different meaning? I always had the feeling it came to refer more to "ultimate truth", "realisation", "awakeness". I thought that is what the above quote points to and what Jdanza was referring to. I also totally get what you mean by the modern usage of the word in the U.S.! I'm sure it must b frustrating for you to hear! Like listening to out of tune sankyoku, I'm sure!

I guess what is really important (for the forum at least!) is shakuhachi. And how these things relate to the shakuhachi.

Justin
http://senryushakuhachi.com/

Last edited by Justin (2008-08-27 08:28:45)

Hi Brian
You ask are "we" engaged in Z*n practice, or not. I think it depends on each individual.
In case it is useful, I thought I would offer some explanation from Tibetan Buddhism. This does relate to shakuhachi, but those not interested in this, please do skip to the next post!

In the mahamudra tradition of Tibetan Buddhism, we talk about ground, path and fruit. I think we might be able to freely interchange the word "Mahamudra" and the word "Z*n". Much of the confusion can come because of confusion as to whether the ground, path or fruit is being referred to. In this case, I think this is a very useful way to communicate about it. I am no expert, but, basically, "ground" refers to the fact that everything is "mahamudra", i.e. truth etc. In that respect, Z*n yoghurt sounds good! This also indicates that there is no-where else to look for "truth" (Z*n) than right here. It is our own potential, our own nature. Then there is mahamudra as path. That is, the practices which we call mahamudra, which we do to come to attaining the fruit. Mahamudra as fruit, is the potential made manifest - that is, when we directly perceive everything as it is.

I can't explain well. Below I attach the words of Tai Situ Rinpoche on the subject.
Then, for shakuhachi playing, I would say that when I deliberately play shakuhachi with awareness, according to the training I have received, I could call that Z*n practice (as path). Since I am so deluded, I would not call it Z*n as fruition. And then, when I practice new music, going over and over mistakes, playing carefully from the notation, I find it a much more intellectual process and can not call that Z*n practice. For me, generally the Z*n practice comes when playing music from memory - not necessarily honkyoku, though it tends to be for me. Also for me this often happens more when I play in the street. Somehow it pushes me deeper into the music and away from distractions.

Tai Situ Rinpoche's words on the subject of terminology, ground path and fruit:

"First of all we have to define the terminology. Mahamudra is Sanskrit terminology, and it is translated into Tibetan as chagya chenpo. So the terminology itself, or we can call it a title, even though it’s not really appropriate to give a title to something that doesn’t have anything to do with a title. It’s a little confusing, but we have to “play dumb”. We know mahamudra cannot be boxed into anything or packaged, but we have to play dumb and package it, and then put the title ‘mahamudra’ on it. We have to do that, otherwise we might get very confused, and even worse we might get lost. It could be like a 1000 story building with 10,000 rooms which have no floor numbers and no room numbers: it would be very complicated to find anything. So we have to conventionalise the ultimate, and give a title to something that cannot be restricted or limited by a title."


"Ground means potential. Path means how to materialise, purify or develop our potential. How to go about it - that is path. Fruition is exactly the same as potential, because potential and fruition are the same thing. When the potential is fully developed, then that is fruition. You cannot achieve something that has nothing to do with you. What you will achieve at the end will be exactly what you are: what is in you or  what is about you. So the potential and the fruition are the same thing. Undeveloped potential is ground, fully developed potential is fruition, and how to develop undeveloped potential into fully developed potential is path. So ground, path and fruition. Through this we will then understand what mahamudra practice is, and what we are saying in the mahamudra dedication when we say “Because of this merit may I attain the full realisation of mahamudra, and lead all sentient beings to the realisation of mahamudra.” It’s the same thing as “Because of this merit may I attain buddhahood and lead all sentient beings to the realisation of buddhahood”, but in the mahamudra prayer, sometimes we say that.

Last edited by Justin (2008-08-27 05:26:18)

careful there fouw you are quoting one of those "hippy" types and we can't afford to have to many more topics closed down!!

(vaguely humorous reference to the recent closing of the Zen topics)

Last edited by buji (2008-08-27 08:39:59)

We have cheapened and bastardized many wonderful words

This should not be surprising.  This is how language works, all languages.  As time goes on, words develop new connotations and meanings and travel to different markets.  Rebelling against it is quite useless, although the topis in question is an annoyance to me as well.  Still, stagnant language is dead language.  I think it is always a good lesson to have the things and words we hold sacred get run over, muddied, and bloodied.  This is HBIUHG*IBUT&TUYBIUB*YUGYTFFV*^&^F VF TFVUHGVHGHGHVFIYUT IGY's primary lesson.  A teacher once told me, "If you can't use your scripture (religious text) as toilet paper, you don't really understand it."

My wife went out and got some dishes.  As I was unpacking them for her, I noticed the color was listed as Za-HBIUHG*IBUT&TUYBIUB*YUGYTFFV*^&^F VF TFVUHGVHGHGHVFIYUT IGY Green.  I was annoyed, but they still help our food and drink sufficiently.  And, I have to say it is quite a nice hue.

nyokai wrote:

(Unless you're missing a nose or something, then I would do the tengai.)

Or an ear, perhaps? 

Mujitsu wrote:

nyokai wrote:

Back to the topic at hand --

Thanks Phil. This thread has strayed too far from the original topic. Let's keep additional posts directly related to the topic below.

Thanks everyone!

Ken

Benjamin wrote:

Being a college student who is trying to figure out how to make a living, I was wondering what kind of experiences others have had with the shakuhachi in the school setting.  I have a had a hard time being satisfied with one pursuit for a degree.  I love the shakuhachi very much and often wish that donning a tengai and robe could be a possible lifestyle in todays society.  I dont want a degree, I dont want a paycheck.  A Ryokanesque hut, a bowl, and a flute.  That would be nice.

It all makes me very sad.  I am at a loss.

Ben

Hey Ben,
You've got so much going for you and are so fortunate to have discovered shakuhachi at your age in life. There's tons of pressures on ya trying to figure out what to do but you will. My daughter was in a quandry when she started college. Business or French, Anthropology or French, Culinary Studies or French, she just graduated with a French degree from the University of Iowa and is moving to teach English in Paris. She lived in Pau, France for her junior year, is fluent and going to try to get into La Sorbonne and blows a jinashi when she feels she needs to. If you want to travel, study something in school that will facilitate that and study shakuhachi however you can. See, a double-major right there . You've got time to study, get that direction going and all the while, blowing shakuhachi. Life is good, be kind to your mind, you're already walking your path
Sincerely, -kerry

Thank you all

I am somewhat isolated when it  comes to dealing with these problems, apart from you guys here on the magic box in front of me.  I plan to start formal lessons with Michael Gould in November, and am very excited.