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#26 2008-10-01 12:10:14

lowonthetotem
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From: Cape Coral, FL
Registered: 2008-04-05
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Re: Fuke Zen --> Fukeshu

Justin, you are right. I should have written that the 3 node gagaku shakuhachi may not have as much tapering instead of no tapering.

It would be interesting to know if the jade flute at the temple also has any taper, since it would not be naturally occurring.  This would indicate that it was indeed a decisive choice to have a taper and not just incidental.


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#27 2008-10-01 13:44:45

Justin
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Re: Fuke Zen --> Fukeshu

It would not necessarily tell you that. That may perhaps have been more ornamental than actually used for music.

Justin
http://senryushakuhachi.com/

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#28 2008-10-01 16:22:48

Kiku Day
Shakuhachi player, teacher and ethnomusicologist
From: London, UK & Nørre Snede, DK
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 922
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Re: Fuke Zen --> Fukeshu

Justin wrote:

Hi Kiku
The ones I posted links to look to me to be made with the bamboo in the same direction as Fuke shakuhachi, and thus having the same direction of taper. It also looks to me that the bamboo was taken from near the base, i.e. not far from the root end. The taper should therefore be significant and I would suggest perhaps not very dissimilar to the taper of Fuke shakuhachi. This was probably a musical choice. Since they were playing in ensemble with other instruments, it in fact makes sense that they would need to keep in tune with the others in both octaves and therefore a taper is desirable.

lowonthetotem wrote:

It would be interesting to know if the jade flute at the temple also has any taper, since it would not be naturally occurring.  This would indicate that it was indeed a decisive choice to have a taper and not just incidental.

Mmmmm... let's not draw any conclusions quite yet. The tapering of the shakuhachi may very well have begun with the gagaku shakuhachi, but let me ask someone who has the data from the gagaku shakuhachi and not guessing from pictures. I will come back when or if I get an answer.

Just before I was to post this, I noticed that Yamaguchi Shugetsu was on Skype. He used the measurement data from Shosoin shakuhachi to make a copy. One such Shosoin shakuhachi copy was shown by Tukitani Tuneko in her talk at the Bisei festival last year. Anyway, I asked him about the tapering. He said the direction of making the flute was like shakuhachi today. He estimates the bamboo was cut quite a distance from the root and did therefore not think there was much of a tapering. However, I have to say it is a while ago he made one, so let's wait and see the data before we draw conclusions. It would be interesting to see. Shugetsu said he was amazed by how close to do re mi... his copy played.

Justin wrote:

Kiku (or anyone else), could you tell us the history line - was it
1) Gagaku shakuhachi developed into
2) Miyogiri developed into
3) Hitoyogiri developed into
4) Fuke shakuhachi

Or was it
1) Gagaku shakuhachi developed into
2) Miyogiri AND Hitoyogiri
3) Fuke shakuhachi developed from Miyogiri

Or even
1) Gagaku shakuhachi developed into
2) Hitoyogiri developed into
3) Miyogiri developed into
4) Fuke shakuhachi
(This would seem a little strange as Miyogiri and Gagaku shakuhachi seem closer to each other than hitoyogiri and Gagaku shakuhachi - but, could have been this way. Anyone know?)

The order of developments are very hard to follow exactly. My feeling is that miyogiri and hitoyogiri and Fuke shakuhachi were all contemporary at one point... but which came first? Hitoyogiri comes first in documents, and it probably is the first... but since the peak of the popularity of hitoyogiri was during the 18th century, all 3 types of shakuhachi existed alongside each other. So, it is not that one developed out of one and then the former became outdated and then it developed to a third type and the second type became outdated. It is like today... many makers make their own experiments simultaneously at different places. Since the Fuke shakuhachi is closer to miyogiri, it seems more likely that it was developed from that instrument. On the other hand, hitoyogiri was used by monks... ahh... the history. So hard to uncover!

Dan, the Taigensho is a great document. I have a photocopy of it somewhere... well, now I am in London and that would be at my place in the Danish countryside... Sigh! The life of someone who never settles ! ! !
If you go to the national library in Tokyo, I am sure they have a copy of Taigensho.
Dan, how did your lecture go? Congratulations on finishing that! And the concert???


I am a hole in a flute
that the Christ's breath moves through
listen to this music
Hafiz

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#29 2008-10-01 23:13:19

Justin
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Re: Fuke Zen --> Fukeshu

Kiku Day wrote:

Just before I was to post this, I noticed that Yamaguchi Shugetsu was on Skype. He used the measurement data from Shosoin shakuhachi to make a copy. One such Shosoin shakuhachi copy was shown by Tukitani Tuneko in her talk at the Bisei festival last year. Anyway, I asked him about the tapering. He said the direction of making the flute was like shakuhachi today. He estimates the bamboo was cut quite a distance from the root and did therefore not think there was much of a tapering.

Hi Kiku
You can see that the direction is the same as Fuke shakuhachi from looking at the nodes in the pictures. Also my reason for suggesting that the bamboo is taken from near the root end is the proportions of the space between the nodes. If you measure them, you will see the distance increases dramatically between the nodes as you go up (towards the sky). That is consistent with being close to the root end. Anyway, as for the taper, if you have internal measurements, that would be great to hear about. by the way, has no-one played them (recently)? Recorded the sound?

Justin
http://senryushakuhachi.com/

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#30 2008-10-02 09:28:18

lowonthetotem
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From: Cape Coral, FL
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Re: Fuke Zen --> Fukeshu

That may perhaps have been more ornamental than actually used for music.

One of the papers that I have read (not R. Lee's but one from the 70's) mentions that the jade flute plays quite well, even superior among the five.  It does not go into detail beyond that, though.


"Turn like a wheel inside a wheel."

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#31 2008-10-02 12:02:09

Kiku Day
Shakuhachi player, teacher and ethnomusicologist
From: London, UK & Nørre Snede, DK
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 922
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Re: Fuke Zen --> Fukeshu

Hi there.

Fellow shakuhachi enthusiast, Natalie Schneider is a very good ethnographer. She always sends me the most amazing and useful pictures... smile Thank you, Natalie!
She has sent these photos below. They are the flutes Tukitani Tuneko brought with her when she spoke at the Bisei Festival last year. It is enjoyable to see these shakuhachi related flutes beside each other:

This picture shows from the left: tempuku; hitoyogiri; gagaku shakuhachi; Fuke shakuhachi and a xiao.
http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll13/kikuday/TsukitaniFlutes1.jpg

On this picture you can see the mouthpieces of the gagaku shakuhachi, Fuke shakuhchi and xiao (I don't know which kind of xiao this is. I know they can vary).
http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll13/kikuday/TsukitaniFlutes2.jpg

Sorry, if I seem  little slow, but I always like to ask one too many questions rather than concluding on something I haven't really seen myself.  Just me! wink
of course not everybody can get into Shosoin and try these flutes out, and that is even if you are a famous shakuhachi scholar! sad As far as I know (and this is just rumour I pass on without knowing for sure if it is true), a particular research group was appointed for the instruments in the Shosoin, and they are basically the only people who have had their hands on these treasures.
Shosoin is under the strict administration of the Japanese government, and it has since World War II been under the administration of the Imperial Household Agency. It is on the UNESCO register of World Heritage Sites and a national treasure of Japan.
Once a year they open up to the public to view some of the treasures. It must be around this time of the year. I hear it is autumn anyway. Perhaps you guys in Japan can go and report back if you managed to see a gagaku shakuhachi !
I know only of recordings of copies made after the measurements... but there must be some recordings somewhere - one should think...

A book that has some of the measurements and discusses the 8 Shosoin shakuhachi is this one only in Japanese:
Author: Ueno Kenji (not 100% sure about the given name) 上野 堅実
Title: Shakuhachi no rekishi (The history of the shakuhachi) 尺八の歴史
Printed 2002. Tokyo: Shuppan Geijutsu sha 出版芸術社

Last edited by Kiku Day (2008-10-02 17:02:40)


I am a hole in a flute
that the Christ's breath moves through
listen to this music
Hafiz

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#32 2008-10-02 22:17:55

Josh
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From: Grand Island, NY/Nara, Japan
Registered: 2005-11-14
Posts: 305
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Re: Fuke Zen --> Fukeshu

Hey,
Here is a link to the shakuhachi that will be displayed this month:

http://www.narahaku.go.jp/exhib/2008tok … oin-02.htm

The exibition is from  10/25 ~ 11/10 this year
I was interviewed about this shakuhachi in one of the Nara newspapers recently. Don't worry, it wasn't about anything new I've researched about this flute or anything as interesting as that. They just wanted a professional shakuhachi player's opinion on how it compares to today, the music they played (which we don't know) etc..  Asahi newspaper affiliates in Osaka last year cleaned up some old recordings of the flutes that were made in the 50's. You can hear it if you actually go to the exhibition, but I think that is the only way. I also don't have the details about the players who recorded them either yet. Still digging. As Kiku knows, the government is less than helpful, bordering on hindering...

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#33 2008-10-03 03:01:21

Kiku Day
Shakuhachi player, teacher and ethnomusicologist
From: London, UK & Nørre Snede, DK
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 922
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Re: Fuke Zen --> Fukeshu

Ohhhh.... it was of course you I meant when I wrote 'famous shakuhachi scholar', Josh! wink wink wink
Yeah, I recall 1956 as a date I have seen of the last research done there ! ! ! So much more could be done...
Great about the interview. Can we see the article?

While I am buried in preparing lectures on min'yo, Ainu and Okinawan folk song, Natalie has sent me the link to the whole exhibition and there is also an English version if you wish to see:
www.narahaku.go.jp/index_e.html

Wish I could go.... ! ! !  Josh, it is just 'around the corner' for you! You are lucky!

Last edited by Kiku Day (2008-10-03 03:02:35)


I am a hole in a flute
that the Christ's breath moves through
listen to this music
Hafiz

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#34 2008-10-03 12:01:54

Kiku Day
Shakuhachi player, teacher and ethnomusicologist
From: London, UK & Nørre Snede, DK
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 922
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Re: Fuke Zen --> Fukeshu

and a few more historical information:
* The shakuhachi disappeared from the gagaku ensemble when the latter was reorganised in the mid-10th century.
* The first mention (from what I know) of shakuhachi is in Kyokunsho in 1233. The text say something like: 'the short flute is
   called shakuhachi. It is now played by mekurahoshi (blind monks) and performers of sarugaku (earlu noh).
* as far as I know the first illustration of a shakuhachi is on the Taigensho, already mentioned here by Dan.

Correct me if the above is wrong...
I just came across the chapter on the history of shakuhachi and since we had discussed taigensho etc - I thought I'd put it up here.


I am a hole in a flute
that the Christ's breath moves through
listen to this music
Hafiz

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#35 2008-10-05 17:50:21

Austin Shadduck
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From: New York, NY
Registered: 2008-09-21
Posts: 38
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Re: Fuke Zen --> Fukeshu

The translated history from Blasdel's "The Shakuhachi: A Manual for Learning" mentions a shakuhachi on display at the Tokyo National Museum that comes from the same era as the Shosoin shakuhachi. I wonder how it compares?

Is the Kyokunsho the first reference to the shakuhachi as such? How is "shakuhachi" referenced in something like the Saidaiji Shiryo Zai (from what I understand this is an eighth-century document that basically inventories the items in the Shosoin and lists the eight shakuhachi)?

Has anyone heard of the Chronicles of Lu Cai from the Tang Documents? Is there a translation available? I'm just coming across many of these terms and I'd like to learn more.

Last edited by Austin Shadduck (2008-10-05 17:51:12)


“His first, last and only formal instruction for me was embodied in one word: observe.” -Billy Strayhorn on Duke Ellington

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#36 2008-10-06 03:18:09

Kiku Day
Shakuhachi player, teacher and ethnomusicologist
From: London, UK & Nørre Snede, DK
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 922
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Re: Fuke Zen --> Fukeshu

Austin Shadduck wrote:

Is the Kyokunsho the first reference to the shakuhachi as such? How is "shakuhachi" referenced in something like the Saidaiji Shiryo Zai (from what I understand this is an eighth-century document that basically inventories the items in the Shosoin and lists the eight shakuhachi)?

Hi Austin.
The Kyokunsho has the first Japanese mention of shakuhachi after the instrument fell into desuetude after the gagaku reorganisation in the 10th century. Not the first writing about shakuhachi in all times. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

I am not a historical ethnomusicologist, so this is something I haven't been digging into. But there are documents both from China and Japan before the mid-10th century that mentions the shakuhachi, using this name about the instrument. The measurements in Tang dynasty China were different so it was called shakuhachi even though it is smaller than the instrument today.

Unfortunately, I can't point you in the direction of readings about the ancient shakuhachi during the Tang dynasty. Would be very interesting though...


I am a hole in a flute
that the Christ's breath moves through
listen to this music
Hafiz

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#37 2008-10-06 11:05:23

Kiku Day
Shakuhachi player, teacher and ethnomusicologist
From: London, UK & Nørre Snede, DK
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 922
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Re: Fuke Zen --> Fukeshu

Since I just came across notes I took while reading through some Sankyoku journal, I thought I'd post some of the information. This is an article written by MARU Sadakichi in Sankyoku 19: 53-54, 1923 and some of the things mentioned are themes we have pondered upon here on the forum.
I only put up information written by Maru and I have not judged them at all. I am not claiming he is right or wrong. I hope I got the translation or the meaning right.

According to Maru there were no real professional makers until around Meiji 10 (1877). Mostly komusō made their own shakuhachi and used kuhanwari system.

The kinko style of playing became popular from ca. Meiji 30 (1897).

From ca. Meiji 30 ~ 36 (1897-1903) it became popular to use ji to tune the shakuhachi when making them.
Ji is Kodō sensei’s invention (here I am a little short in information about who Kodō sensei is).

According to Maru the same Kodō sensei invented:
a. Different position for the fifth fingering hole
b. Chi or 3rd hole made smaller

According to Maru better quality shakuhachi became available from Meiji 40 (1907) (he doesn't write what 'better' means but perhaps some kind of change may have happened then in shakuhachi construction).

Last edited by Kiku Day (2008-10-06 15:43:02)


I am a hole in a flute
that the Christ's breath moves through
listen to this music
Hafiz

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#38 2008-10-06 11:55:09

Tairaku 太楽
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Re: Fuke Zen --> Fukeshu

Kiku Day wrote:

From ca. Meiji 30 ~ 36 it became popular to use ji to tune the shakuhachi when making them.
Ji is Kodō sensei’s invention (here I am a little short in information about who Kodō sensei is).

According to Maru the same Kodō sensei invented:
a. Different position for the fifth fingering hole
b. Chi or 3rd hole made smaller

Araki Kodo II a.k.a. Araki Chikuo.

He was a genius. His flutemaking was exemplary. I have a 1.6 by him although I think he didn't use his newfangled invention, ji.

He also wrote part of Hi Fu Mi Hachikaeshi.

http://www.komuso.com/people/Araki_Kodo_II.html


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

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#39 2008-10-06 21:35:39

Justin
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Re: Fuke Zen --> Fukeshu

Where did Maru live? His information about kuhanwari and Kinko sounds regional - was he from Kansai?

I agree about Araki Kodo II. He was a genius. Perhaps my favourite shakuhachi maker, both with ji and without ji.

When he talks about better quality shakuhachi becoming available, he may be refering to the Araki-school makers of the next generation. Araki Kodo III was said to have been the most sought after maker. His shakuhachi are also amazing. Miura Kindo was also this same school.

Araki Kodo IV died when he was still quite young unfortunately. I think there are not many of his instruments around, but the one I have played was amazing.

I hope to put more about this amazing lineage of shakuhachi maker-players on my website. I'll let you know when I do.

Justin
http://senryushakuhachi.com/

Last edited by Justin (2008-10-06 21:36:08)

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#40 2008-10-07 10:07:57

Kiku Day
Shakuhachi player, teacher and ethnomusicologist
From: London, UK & Nørre Snede, DK
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 922
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Re: Fuke Zen --> Fukeshu

Yes, I suppose it is an Araki Kodo, and most probably Araki Kodo II, Maru is talking about... THE Kodo apparently since he doesn't specify which Kodo in the text. 
I have no information about Maru himself other than he is the author of the article.


I am a hole in a flute
that the Christ's breath moves through
listen to this music
Hafiz

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#41 2008-10-07 21:05:30

Justin
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From: Japan
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Posts: 540
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Re: Fuke Zen --> Fukeshu

Kiku Day wrote:

Yes, I suppose it is an Araki Kodo, and most probably Araki Kodo II, Maru is talking about...

Hi Kiku
Not most probably Araki Kodo II. It IS Araki Kodo II. I can tell you that as a fact.

Justin
http://senryushakuhachi.com/

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#42 2008-10-08 05:35:53

marek
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From: Czech Republic
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Posts: 189
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Re: Fuke Zen --> Fukeshu

Justin wrote:

Kiku Day wrote:

Yes, I suppose it is an Araki Kodo, and most probably Araki Kodo II, Maru is talking about...

Hi Kiku
Not most probably Araki Kodo II. It IS Araki Kodo II. I can tell you that as a fact.

Justin
http://senryushakuhachi.com/

Hi Justin,

please support your claim with evidence in order to maintain the high level of this thread.
Thank you.

Marek


In passionate silence, the sound is what I'm after.

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#43 2008-10-08 08:56:08

Justin
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From: Japan
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Re: Fuke Zen --> Fukeshu

Hi Marek
I'd be happy to explain.
It is quite well known about Araki Kodo II making the 3rd hole smaller. My teacher, Araki Kodo V (the great grandson of Araki Kodo II) told me that Araki Kodo II was the first to do this. I have played quite a few of Araki Kodo II's instruments and have noted also that the 3rd hole is smaller. Later Araki-ha makers also used this method, and it was soon taken up by just about every shakuhachi maker.

About ji - it was said above "From ca. Meiji 30 ~ 36 it became popular to use ji to tune the shakuhachi when making them.
Ji is Kodō sensei’s invention (here I am a little short in information about who Kodō sensei is). "

Meiji 30 is 1897. It is likely to have been invented quite some time before it became popular. Since Araki Kodo III was born in 1879, he is most probably refering to someone prior to Araki Kodo III. There is a possibility still that he could be refering to Araki Kodo III (if he had invented the use of ji at a young age and it then became popular very quickly) but then it does not make sense since we know it was not he who invented making the 3rd hole smaller.

I have observed and researched about instruments from the different generations of Araki lineage. Araki Kodo II made both shakuhachi with entirely no ji, and with some ji. I have heard that his style changed as he developed. The above statement about Kodo sensei concerning ji could not refer to any other Araki Kodo than Araki Kodo II.

Lastly Araki Kodo II was the head of Kinko-ryu. His son continued his lineage. This being so, it would make sense that "Kodo sensei" (presuming it is the correct kanji) can only refer to one of those two, being written at that time.

Justin
http://senryushakuhachi.com/

Last edited by Justin (2008-10-08 08:58:37)

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#44 2008-10-08 12:19:25

Kiku Day
Shakuhachi player, teacher and ethnomusicologist
From: London, UK & Nørre Snede, DK
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 922
Website

Re: Fuke Zen --> Fukeshu

I think there is no doubt among anyone following this thread that Maru Sadakichi is referring to Araki Kodō II.

I personally have no doubt myself, but in a public space like the forum I want to more careful with my wording, and try not to write my postulations out as a fact - even if I am convinced. I use quotations from this forum sometimes, and I would not like to be quoted for saying something is a fact when I can't find proof for it.

The only person who could in reality coin as a fact that Maru is referring to Araki Kodō II, is Maru himself. Everybody else is guessing! Also even though what Maru writes fits very well with what one otherwise hears about Araki Kodō II's achievements.

Although I don't know Maru's fate since 1923, but writing 85 years ago and writing about what a person who died in 1908 achieved in a way as if he knew the person (that is my impression from reading the article)... I think Maru is no longer among us to answer our question.

I posted the quotes from Maru's article because I found it interesting to see in writing some of the things we 'hear about' and that back from 1923.
Marek is right in pointing out that 'fact' is a big word, and Justin you probably are right, but as you write yourself, it could also be Araki Kodō III - even though it is unlikely. We all understand the likelihood of Araki Kodō II being the person metioned... We therefore all agree very nicely.
So, let us stay there and play shakuhachi with peace in mind! wink

Last edited by Kiku Day (2008-10-08 14:57:39)


I am a hole in a flute
that the Christ's breath moves through
listen to this music
Hafiz

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#45 2008-10-08 18:15:24

Tairaku 太楽
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From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
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Re: Fuke Zen --> Fukeshu

The most important thing is to play any and all Araki flutes one can find as often as possible. lol


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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