Mujitsu and Tairaku's Shakuhachi BBQ

The longer the flute the lower the sound. There is no right (or wrong) length, just what you are able to feel comfortable with.  The word shakuhachi means isshaku hassun or one shaku eight sun in length, but most shakuhachi makers here in Japan also make flutes from about 1.6 (one shaku six sun, in the key of E -- which is used specifically to play some early 20th century pieces such as the popular  "Haru No Umi" ("Spring Sea") -- to 2.4 (nissaku  yonsun, base note of A), though some players favor even longer flutes.  John Kaizan Neptune makes and plays flutes of even longer lengths, perhaps to 3 shaku in length.  Tairaku also favors longer flutes.  Canadian shakuhachi master Alcvin Ramos, not a tall person, plays long flutes seemingly effortlessly with consummate skill.  It is said that Watazumi Do played incredibly long flutes using his toes to cover some of the holes...

Hi Erin.

I began my shakuhachi journey on a 2.3. I got my first 1.8 after having played for more than 10 years.
I am 1m 60 ... and I always thought that was 5 feet 3 something, but a random internet converter tells me I am 5.299... so I am certainly smaller than you. I regularly play flutes up to 3.05 and now in the midst of practicing to play my 3.2. That will take me a while.
I LOVE the deep sounds of the longer shakuhachi although now I also appreciate having fun with shorter flutes. Before I began playing 1.8 I considered a 2.4 for a short flute - Just depends on what you are used to.
My flutes up to the 2.9 (which is the one I play on the first photo on my website) have the tone holes in a straight line. Larger than that I offset holes 3 and 5.
So... small women long flutes - no problem. It all depends on your arm length, size of hand and your willingness to practice for a while adapting to new playing positions and techniques. So when you are ready for it: Go for it ! ! !

Here is a little picture of me playing a 3.15

Last edited by Kiku Day (2008-11-17 04:51:55)

Hey Airin,

I'm sure you have already looked, but go to Perry Yung's website.  There you will see the hand/finger position best used on longer flutes.  Please, don't do what I did, and try to play a long flute the same way you play a 1.8.  Trust me.  Your hand will hurt for a week or two.  If you look at pretty much any video of Tiraku playing (including, I think, a 1.8) you will see this long flute hand position.  It is actually very comfortable.

I might get some cries of protest here, but the forum here seems (in general) to glorify long jinashi and downplay the 1.8 jiari, grudgingly accepting it almost as a 'necessary evil', a healthy requirment like being made to eat your vegetables as a child (you know they're good for you, but you still don't want to eat them).  I could be wrong.  That's just the general tone I get after having used the forum daily since I began shakuachi.   We have a "jinashi police" of sorts, but do we really have a "jiari police"?  Not so much.  Possibly Riley Lee, if I remember right.

Whatever the case may be, the 1.8 is your foundation, and is, as such, rather important.  You should explore jinashi for sure (it is very rewarding), but remember that the 1.8 became the defacto standard for a reason, and neglect of the 1.8 is probably a bad idea.  In other words, jinashi is not a replacement to the 1.8, but a fun compliment.  I get the sense that most of the long flute players also play 1.8s too as part of their core practice, so I guess they may offer similar advice.   

Whatever you decide though, please visit Perry's site, it will save you (quite literally) a whole lot of unecessary pain and suffering.  I hope to be getting a new jinashi some time myself.

Last edited by Lorka (2008-11-17 13:31:02)

I'm 5'9" and find longer flutes very hard to play.  I just think my hands were not built with the needed reach.   

A story goes that there was a famous bansuri player who aspired to playing longer and longer flutes.  When he hit a limit on the stretch of his hands he simply pulled out a knife and committed a little self augmentation by cutting open the skin on between his pinky and ring finger.   I find this story hard to accept as true, but it's still a great tale.

As it has been said before - there is a bigger issue here than just a 2.4 makes deeper sounds.

When I hear great playing on a jiari  1.8, like from my sensei, James, I often think "How beautiful!  How lovely!" And when I hear great jinashi playing on a 2.4 or longer - say Okadu (sp?) I think : "How mesmerizing! How hypnotic!"

I like both too.  did not mean to suggest otherwise, was just suggesting not to forget about the 1.8 when straying into the long flutes (which I love)

Last edited by Lorka (2008-11-17 20:13:24)

OK, here's another beginner's question that keeps coming to my mind.  Length, what exactly does it mean?

My shakuhachi if apparently a 1.8.   But when I measure it the measurement is 22 inches.  I realize the Japanese 'one foot, eight inches' was based on a slightly difference version of the 'foot' than that used now in the West.  So when someone says they enjoy playing a 2.3, what would the length of that be?   It should be 27 inches but then again a 1.8 should be 20 inches so....help....?!

Until recently I thought the measurments were exact, i.e. all 1.8's are the same length.  If they were different, wouldn't they be another length, and therefore not 1.8? 

I have a monty and a beautiful black Inga 1.8 made by Derek van Choice (amazing guy).  Thing is, the monty is at least an inch longer than the Inga, but both play at the stadard Ro = D.  Both are "1.8's" but different lengths.  So that kind of makes things even more confusing.  I try not to think about it too much, as my head might explode.

Lorka wrote:

Until recently I thought the measurments were exact, i.e. all 1.8's are the same length.  If they were different, wouldn't they be another length, and therefore not 1.8? 

I have a monty and a beautiful black Inga 1.8 made by Derek van Choice (amazing guy).  Thing is, the monty is at least an inch longer than the Inga, but both play at the stadard Ro = D.  Both are "1.8's" but different lengths.  So that kind of makes things even more confusing.  I try not to think about it too much, as my head might explode.

When you name a flute by length then you go only according to the length, not pitch. 1.8 can be either D or C# or anywhere in between depending on the bore size.

Naming by pitch is OK but then just say, "My D flute" or "My Ab flute".

edosan wrote:

Tairaku wrote:

When you name a flute by length then you go only according to the length, not pitch. 1.8 can be either D or C# or anywhere in between depending on the bore size.

Naming by pitch is OK but then just say, "My D flute" or "My Ab flute".

True enough, but in my experience the convention these days is to assume that when you call a flute a 1.4, it's pitched at F#, a 1.6 is E, a 1.8 is D, a 1.9 is C#, a 2.0 a C, a 2.1 a B, a 2.3 is a Bb, and a 2.4 is an A unless specifically named another pitch. Longer than 2.4 and things can get more murky.

That's my experience as well. So that the name fits to the nearest sun. For example 2.4 might actually be 2.43, but no-one will call it a 2.43, just a 2.4, and you know it is in A. Although I think in Tozan (?) they use a different system which no longer follows the actual length, just adding a sun for each pitch. The longer you go, the less sense that makes.

The old system was to make to the exact sun length. So a 2.0 was really 2.0 in length. In the Edo period there were basically no "long" shakuhachi as we know them today, and 2.0 was then "long" (2.3 would have been extreme). But the old 2.0s are generally not used nowadays, because they play sharp (could be 20 or 30 cents). Nowadays they are made about 3 bu longer than 2.0.

Justin
http://senryushakuhachi.com/

Kiku Day wrote:

Erin,
A 2.3 would be ca 70 cm or 2.29 feet.
A 2.5 would be ca 76 cm or 2.49 feet.
A 2.7 would be ca 89 cm or 2.68 feet etc
I find these converters useful: www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Pagoda/8187/Script.htm or www.onlineunitconversion.com/ell.English_to_shaku.html

There is 10 sun to a shaku. Shaku is a measuring unit used both in China and Japan (now not so much anymore and since the measure has changed over time I don't know if they are the same in these two countries). The shaku is not used anymore in Japan where they are using the metric system. 1 shaku is ca. 303 mm or 0.99 foot .

Thank you Kiku.  That explains it!

cheers,
Erin

Lorka wrote:

Until recently I thought the measurements were exact, i.e. all 1.8's are the same length.  If they were different, wouldn't they be another length, and therefore not 1.8?

Here is my most used tool in the shop - my Shaku Tape Measure.


A 1.8 = 54.5.cm. My 1.8 made with Kinya is 54.5cm as is all of the Chikusen Tamai flutes I have come across. Most professional 1.8s are very very close to this measurement but deviating from it does not mean that the flute is not a great flute.  Makers who make by intuition will follow the calling of the flute.
Kiku wrote that the shaku is no longer used in Japan and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that many traditional Japanese carpenters still use shaku. I got my Shaku tape measure from a modern Japanese hardware store in Tokyo. I also was told that Kimono makers use shaku.

It seems to me that even the greater powers to be use shaku: Jet was born at 54.5cm in length!


Namaste, Perry

Hi Justin,

Justin wrote:

Hi Perry
The shaku used for cloth is a different shaku (different measurement) than the normal shaku. I think there are only those 2, cloth and normal. Yes, in the traditional crafts shaku is still in use.

Justin
http://senryushakuhachi.com/

I suspected something like that. I purchased an old wooden shaku ruler once from a Kimono seller at the Roppongi flea market. When I got it home, it didn't "measure up".

Peace, Perry