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#1 2006-03-13 05:50:47

Alex
Member
From: Barcelona - Spain
Registered: 2005-10-17
Posts: 138

Flute prices

Hello everybody,

This weekend I met with a friend who plays Shakuhachi and we were wondering why the prices of good flutes are so amazingly high (over 3000$! according to some teachers). Is it only a matter of demand and supply? Is the process that long and complicated?

In Spain for example, the price of Flamenco guitars has increased five-fold in maybe ten years due to the hight demand from people from outside Spain (from Japan for example) who are willing to pay much more for a handcrafted guitar. I think here some luthiers seing that they sell the guitars at really high prices prefer to make less guitars, sell them more expensive and live a more relaxed life (well, almost any person would do that!)

So, could anybody please tell me what is the process of making a flute and why for example, some flutes cost 1000$ and others 5000$, is it only the bamboo (is it really that expensive)?, is it the demand and supply as I said, or they really have much more work than the cheaper ones?

Also I'm curios about the process of flute making so any inpuy about this will be welcomed.

Thanks!

Alex


"An artist has got to be careful never really to arrive at a place where he thinks he's "at" somewhere. You always have to realise that you are constantly in the state of becoming. And as long as you can stay in that realm, you'll sort of be all right"
Bob Dylan

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#2 2006-03-13 13:28:52

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Flute prices

This is a very complicated and for some people emotional issue.

First of all shakuhachi is a Japanese product (except for those made by our esteemed forum members) and are subject to their economic rules. Which is basically everything costs about twice as much as it should. That's the first reason they are expensive.

Shakuhachi is a guild system in Japan. While that is breaking down somewhat it is still the background of the instrument. Therefore prices of lessons, flutes, licenses, performances (students have to pay to perform) and so on are fixed within a certain accepted range. To deviate from that range is to invite criticism.

Now to go into why one flute costs more than another by the same maker. Shakuhachi makers charge for the quality of the bamboo. A "perfect" piece of bamboo costs more than one that's just OK. It costs the maker more to buy it from the picker as well, unless the maker picks his own bamboo. If you are willing to accept a flute with less than perfect bamboo you may get one that plays well and doesn't cost too much.

Another strange thing is that the maker sometimes charges according to the amount of time they spend working on the flute. Most makers will tell you that the magical flutes come together "by themselves" sometimes taking little time to make. The bamboo naturally was intended to become a flute. Other pieces of bamboo require massive amounts of ji and work to become playable. In this scenario sometimes the inferior flute is more expensive than the superior one. Not always though, some makers charge more for the best flutes.

When discussing vintage shakuhachi there are numerous factors which determine price. Some are objective, such as how good the instrument is. Others are subjective, such as the makers fame, how many stamps, whether the instrument is unsigned, cracks, other flaws that don't impair play, etc.

A makers fame can set a high price for the instrument. However some makers generally made good instruments while others' output varied in quality. So you can't go strictly by that. Also some makers were prolific while others made only a few instruments. That may or may not affect the price of the instrument.

Once the flute is made the maker puts one, two or three stamps (hanko) on it. The more stamps, usually the more expensive the instrument. That doesn't always mean it's a better instrument. Some three stamp flutes are disappointing.

Sometimes the maker doesn't stamp the instrument. A lot of times when they made it for themselves they wouldn't stamp it. Obviously they know who made it if they made it themselves. Other times they would give unstamped instruments to their students or friends as gifts. Sometimes we know who the maker of an unsigned flute is by provenance. Other times you can guess by characteristics. Then there are flutes, sometimes of exquisite quality, where you can't tell who the maker was. If you can find a shakuhachi which plays well without any hanko that's usually your best deal.

In the end the basic rules of commerce apply. Caveat emptor, supply and demand, and so forth. The best instruments are expensive and there's not too much you can do about it because if you don't buy it someone else will. The best shakuhachi sell themselves. I deal vintage shakuhachi and over and over again people buy the second best one I have available. They resist buying the best, maybe they don't think they deserve it. Then about six months later they come back to me and say, "I want that other one I tried." By then it's gone.

In the end, if you don't like the price of an instrument, you must go out and find a better one for less money if you want to prove the price was too high. Easier said than done. Or if you think the makers are charging too much you should make your own flute. Some great makers developed their skills because they didn't want to pay those prices.

An exception to these rules are the better top of the line flutes made by Ken Mujitsu LaCosse and Perry Yung which match quality Japanese flutes (or sometimes better) yet cost less because they are working outside the  Japanese system. There may also be an element of racism involved. Gaijin makers don't carry the prestige of Japanese makers, in some peoples minds. Players too, but that's another issue for another topic.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#3 2006-03-13 14:24:22

kyoreiflutes
Member
From: Seattle, WA
Registered: 2005-10-27
Posts: 364
Website

Re: Flute prices

I used to wonder why Shakuhachi were so expensive, too, until I tried a few nicer ones. You can really feel the difference between a nice flute and so-so flute, even if the so-so plays well. There's just something about the craftsmanship of a solid piece of Madake that's been handled so gently, and the fact that someone really took thier time makes it seem better, too.

Also, after having made about 6-7 flutes now, I can tell you that a pro flute takes a long time to make, usually, and the amount of tiny little ji work can be staggering. I still can barely comprehend it all. I know I'll never get that into making flutes, espcially as all I want to do right now is play, so I'm willing to fork over what cash I have for a well-made flute.

A good flute in ANY genre will cost you a pretty good amount, and you can't always be sure about the quality, especially if there are moving parts. If you have a well-made flute with no middle joint, watch your humidity, cover your utaguchi, then it should last much longer than a lot of key-based flutes, or any flute that needs reed replacement, etc. A lot of those kinds of flutes are usually pretty expensive, too, even though you REALLY have to take care of them for them to be concert quality all the time.

Myself, I'm not crazy, per se, about paying $2,ooo for a flute: however, I almost never have $2,ooo to toss around like that (rent comes first), so it's too hard for me to justify. Now, if I become that good a player, and stick with it, then $2,ooo+ isn't a problem for me, if I have it. I'm a maker myself, so I know how hard it can be to make a truly nice flute, and these guys aren't selling them like Nintendos or anything...they sell very few compared to a bigger shop, so the price is adjusted, in some cases, accordingly. I assume.

Like, Brian...do you remember the Fairlight and the Synclavier? Those were some really expensive "keyboards" from the 80's/90's, and I believe they started at around $125,ooo. Not too many people could afford, much less wanted, a system like that, so they couldn't sell many, and the per-piece price was outrageous as a result. Now, of course, we have computer/keyboard systems that do much more, for like 16th of the price...I stink at math, though, so it could be more. wink

Anyway...I wouldn't worry too much about flute prices, especially when we have Perry and Ken around. wink There are also a few Japanese makers who dont' charge that much, although it's still in the $1,5oo range. You just have to look.

-Eddie

Last edited by kyoreiflutes (2006-03-13 14:26:56)


"The Universe does not play favorites, and is not fair by its very Nature; Humans, however, are uniquely capable of making the world they live in fair to all."    - D.E. Lloyd

"Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bells tolls; it tolls for thee."    -John Donne

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#4 2006-03-13 14:36:59

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Flute prices

kyoreiflutes wrote:

Myself, I'm not crazy, per se, about paying $2,ooo for a flute: however, I almost never have $2,ooo to toss around like that (rent comes first), so it's too hard for me to justify. Now, if I become that good a player, and stick with it, then $2,ooo+ isn't a problem for me, if I have it. I'm a maker myself, so I know how hard it can be to make a truly nice flute, and these guys aren't selling them like Nintendos or anything...they sell very few compared to a bigger shop, so the price is adjusted, in some cases, accordingly. I assume.


-Eddie

The makers I know here and in Japan are not exactly driving around in Porsches. First they have to spend many years learning their craft. In this process they use up a lot of good bamboo, sometimes with poor or no results. By the time they have a handle on things they are seriously in the red. You have to break down the price of the flute not only by how much time and expense went into making that particular piece, but also what went into the years of preparation leading to the maker being able to make the flute. I would guess that if you look at a makers career and divide it into an hourly rate they would not be making much more than someone who's flipping burgers. It's a labor of love.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#5 2006-03-13 17:52:04

kyoreiflutes
Member
From: Seattle, WA
Registered: 2005-10-27
Posts: 364
Website

Re: Flute prices

That's what I meant, but I guess it didn't come through like that. The price is "inflated", per piece, compared to what someone makes per piece who is churning things like this out, like more of a production facility. Of course, there's not exactly a lot of that in shakuhachi, lol, but you know what I mean. I know that it takes many years to learn the craft (I still don't know much, just going with the gut and Ken's instructions), so, in the end, they're not really making much money. It's like being a fine artist...you spend years perfecting your craft, then you start to sell, and you realize that, unless you're in production art, you have to charge more per piece because you're only selling 1-2 paintings a year, if you're lucky. So, the per-piece price seems like a lot, but considering how much time BEFORE the painting was painted was unpaid, and all of that learning made this particular piece possible, it's not that bad a deal, really.

Breath.

Okay, enough babbling. Back to work.

-E


"The Universe does not play favorites, and is not fair by its very Nature; Humans, however, are uniquely capable of making the world they live in fair to all."    - D.E. Lloyd

"Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bells tolls; it tolls for thee."    -John Donne

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#6 2006-03-13 17:56:21

Seth
Member
From: Scarsdale, NY
Registered: 2005-10-24
Posts: 270

Re: Flute prices

Let me add a few points to Brian’s explanation for the sometimes astounding prices for high-end flutes.

During my one trip to Japan I was quite surprised by the high prices for all sorts of high-end craft items.  There were very high-end tea bowls offered for hundreds and thousands of dollars.  Hand crafted knives for crazy amounts of money.  Hand woven clothing for prices I had never imagined.  Ink paintings with staggering price tags and so on…

Of course we have high-end art items in the States as well, but I think in general the demand and appetite for high-end art and craft items in Japan is far stronger and may be why these items fetch much higher prices then they would here.   (Why this is so is another conversation.)

In pricing shakuhachi in Japan I think there is a lot more going on than just supply and demand determining the price for a piece of wood that makes music of a certain quality.   There is an added premium that the maker of the shakuhachi is a traditional artist making a unique item of beauty. 

As Americans who are used to consuming mass produced items I think we are a bit oblivious to this aspect of the shakuhachi creation process.  (Or at least I was till I saw it up close.) 

Or to sum the above up in a sentence:  I think for the Japanese shakuhachi are not just instruments, they are unique works of art. 

In regards to the bang for buck value of a shakuhachi… for years I could not hear the difference between the low and high end flutes, but now, frustratingly, I can hear the difference loud and clear.   

But I have doubts as to whether beginning players can get the most out of the master instruments.  I think it takes a master player to bring out the full potential in a master instrument.

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#7 2006-03-13 18:52:17

jumbuk
Member
From: South-eastern Australia
Registered: 2005-12-15
Posts: 85

Re: Flute prices

To add some perspective on this, let's compare shakuhachi against "traditional" Irish wooden flutes.

Someone wanting to get started in ITM (Irish traditional music) will initially be put off by prices of $2,000 + for a used instrument , or $3,000 + for a new flute, with up to 3 year waiting period (I will use US dollars for all these comparisons).

Further research reveals that good beginner "keyless" models can be had new for $300-400.   You can pay more for a keyless from a well-known maker, more still if you want it in blackwood (generally accepted as the best timber for flutes), and more still if you want metal keys to play accidentals like G#, Bb etc (not needed in most ITM).

The flutes originally used for this music were the orchestral "simple system" flutes of the 19th century, before the current standard metal "boehm" flute was introduced.  Some of these antiques are now sought after and go for quite high prices - probably not as high as the top end shakuhachi, though.

However, there are a number of makers of new flutes worldwide - oddly, some of the most respected are in Australia.  It may be that historically the flutes were made in England or Germany rather than Ireland - any way, there is not the same aura and mystique surrounding the country of origin that seems to be attached to the shakuhachi.  In any case, there would be a limited number of potential customers for these flutes, and they are hand made, generally to order.

So, to bring this back to the shakuhachi, paying $2,000 or so for a quality instrument is not unreasonable - it is a carefully handcrafted piece of work.  For a beginner, it may be hard to justify such a significant outlay, and fortunately good cheaper alternatives are available through guys like Monty Levenson, Perry Yung, Stuart Ransom and then there is the Yuu model.  These will all get you to the point where you can hear the difference between an adequate and an excellent tone, and can justify the extra outlay.

And finally, like all quality instruments, a good shakuhachi should retain its resale value, provided it is well cared for.

I should have prefaced the above by stating that I am relatively new to the shakuhachi (more experience with ITM though) and my comments should be read in this context.


... as if nothing is happening.  And it is!

Paul Mitchell, Jumbuktu 2006

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#8 2006-03-13 20:51:33

Mujitsu
Administrator/Flutemaker
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-05
Posts: 885
Website

Re: Flute prices

Alex wrote:

So, could anybody please tell me what is the process of making a flute and why for example, some flutes cost 1000$ and others 5000$
Also I'm curios about the process of flute making so any inpuy about this will be welcomed.

Thanks!

Alex

That is a very good question. The following is how this works for me.

For me, the price of a flute is mainly determined by how good it sounds and plays. Almost always, the best material makes the best flute. Each flute is different. A flute often reveals its potential early. If one reveals great potential, I fuss with it a lot. If it doesn't, I'll work less, or sometimes, a lot on it. Sometimes this helps, sometimes it doesn't. Occasionally, an exceptional flute appears without much fuss. All are priced accordingly by how they sound and play. The time spent on each flute is rarely a factor in determining price as it all blends together.

I think it's important to note that a flute maker does not turn out an identical shakuhachi each time. In other words, I can't say, "I'm going to get started on a $3,000 flute today."  They just appear when they do.

I hope this helps.

Ken

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#9 2006-03-13 23:50:27

dstone
Member
From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: 2006-01-11
Posts: 552
Website

Re: Flute prices

While the best musical instruments are also commonly the most expensive, consider that the best shakuhachi (or hocchiku or whatever) in the more general sense may not need to be the most excellent instrument of music, depending on the goal of one's practice.

If the practice itself is the goal (and it seems to be, for some of us), then I suggest that the absolute best shakuhachi -may- turn out to be one that is inexpensive because it is either a) crafted and priced for a purpose other than traditional solo or ensemble virtuosity, b) flawed in cosmetics, precise tuning, or other ways that won't impede (and may actually help, to some degree) one's practice, or even c) crafted by one's own hand.

Just a thought from a beginner...

Last edited by dstone (2006-03-13 23:51:47)


When it is rainy, I am in the rain. When it is windy, I am in the wind.  - Mitsuo Aida

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#10 2006-03-14 01:23:02

geni
Performer & Teacher
From: Boston MA
Registered: 2005-12-21
Posts: 830
Website

Re: Flute prices

i think the prices are not so crazy.
If people put all their life to learn how to make flutes (instead of becoming a doctors) of course there is a prize.

And , we (the buyers) look at the price. but there is so much investement put to make that flute. I think Time is the bigest  investment.
For example..
I being studing flute of my life (private lessons, school costs). I spend 20 years..of course I charge $$$ for my services.
The some for other profesions..
I like the shakuhachi makers in USA.
They offer good affordable alternatives for flutes.
Thank you Guys.
Geni

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#11 2006-03-14 04:14:38

Alex
Member
From: Barcelona - Spain
Registered: 2005-10-17
Posts: 138

Re: Flute prices

Thanks for all the replies,

I see there are multiple factors. Seth, I also was surprised by the amazing price some things can have in Japan, I saw myself a bunch of incense (Maybe, 30 or 40 sticks in the package, or maybe 50) that costed 2.000$! And as you mentioned, it happens with everything. I supose quality has a price, and that's it.

I makes also a lot of sense to me what Tairaku mentioned about the trial and error period, it's something I would never have thought about.

Well, what everybody seems to agree is that expensive flutes are better. Well, not all of the expensive flutes are great and not all great flutes are expensive, but I guess in the majority of the cases that is the case.

I was asking out of curiosity as I don't intend to buy an expensive flute by now. My parents in law are going to buy me one for my wedding next April (well, my Japanese wedding, I had an Spanish one in October!) but I don't think they will go for an expensive one as they are of the idea that everything must follow its own pace, which I completely agree; I'm a begginer so it doesn't make much sense that I have a pro instrument.

Thank you all for your input and reflections

Salud!

Alex


"An artist has got to be careful never really to arrive at a place where he thinks he's "at" somewhere. You always have to realise that you are constantly in the state of becoming. And as long as you can stay in that realm, you'll sort of be all right"
Bob Dylan

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