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#1 2009-01-01 05:47:42

Peter Kororo
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Registered: 2008-06-21
Posts: 82
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Where did "hocchiku" come from?

I mean the spelling "hocchiku"?

Dharma-bamboo (法竹) is "houchiku." Isn't "hocchiku" supposed to refer to 法竹?

Shouldn't we be speaking of "houchiku" then?


“Many people come, looking, looking. Some people come, see.”
                        —Nepalese saying

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#2 2009-01-01 09:32:13

Peter Kororo
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Registered: 2008-06-21
Posts: 82
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Re: Where did "hocchiku" come from?

I did some research, at least as far as the internet usage, by googling the word. The only mentions were a few wikipedia pages, an article by Tom Deaver, and a mailing list thread that ultimately went back to a post by Alcvin Ramos citing Tom's article. But Tom may well have heard it elsewhere. I think then it just got translated that way at some point, and by whom doesn't matter.

Why does houchiku vs. hocchiku matter? Because in Japanese, short and long vowels are very distinct, and if you pronounce a word perfectly except for getting the vowel length wrong you can easily be competely misunderstood, no different for a Japanese than substituting an r for an l, or the difference, for someone from the US East Coast, if not the midewest, between "merry" and "marry," or any number of similarly-pronounced words to an English speaker. I know this from getting it wrong often enough in Japanese. If it matters to us, I think it behooves serious shakuhachi players to be accurate with the Japanese language.

If hocchiku began as a foreign player's mis-hearing a Japanese say 法竹, perhaps because the Japanese speaker emphasized the "hou" part, which can sound similar, then I suggest we correct that now, despite I see many, many, posts here on this forum using hocchiku, and move on with it written as it should be: houchiku, or my preference hôchiku, just because it I like the way it looks.

Or is this suggestion akin to recommending the US change to the metric system? I remember seeing signs saying "Metric by '76" when I was a kid.

-----------------------

I just went to the amazon site after seeing the "hocchiku shirt" post.

Well, it took the Chinese 200 years to get Peking changed to Beijing, so perhaps by the time I die they'll be selling "got houchiku?" (or the future equivalent) sweatshirts.

One can dream.

--------------------

As to the term. Mr. Kodama's explanation of the definition of a houchiku differs a little from Kiku Day's, it seems, but regardless of the definition, the use of the word "Dharma bamboo" strongly implies that playing on it is a more spiritual experience and/or one that expresses the Dharma in honkyoku better than a shakuhachi, especially a ji-ari one. I'm frankly not sure that's true, though I understand how playing as little-carved a piece of bamboo can bring a lot of elements to playing honkyoku. And shakuhachi are indeed the products of technology, even if at least traditionally the materials used to make them are all natural.

Theoretically at least, one can make a perfect shakuhachi with a few cuts and knocking out of nodes on a piece of bamboo. I've played more than one shakuhachi close to that, jinashi flutes worked very little with one coat of urushi that played so well, I wondered, having read about houchiku a bit, if that disqualified them from being 法器. So while I can see the value of an only-bamboo flute, I don't think one can put one type of sound above another, in terms of an introverted "houchiku" type flute and a very loud, resonant ji-nashi or perhaps even ji-ari flute. I think both have their merits.

I've been able to spend some time with Ishibashi Gudo, who studied with the originator, one assumes, of the houchiku flute as we understand it, Watazumi Douso, and he has given me many that he's collected or made, as well as what he call "jinashikan," to play, and he told me, as well as gave me many flutes to play to show me, that the difference was in the wide, open sound for a houchiku. My take on it was that the attitude, mentally and physically, one adopts, to play them, is more receptive, not trying for a big sound because the sound doesn't focus like with jinashikan or shakuhachi. But I didn't feel like the experience was utterly unlike playing honkyoku with my flute of that size made by Miura Ryuho.

So I can see the merit in this, but to me it's like the difference to Soto vs. Rinzai, or Shingon approaches to Buddhist practice, since that's whre the word Dharma leads. And shakuhachi is considered to have an especially close relationship to the latter, so perhaps the sound it's capable of is better for that approach.

Whether those who prefer this term agree with my interpretation or not, the use of "houchiku" is necessarily value-laden, so it introduces a prejudice into the playing of honkyoku on these different types of flutes. Perhaps that's why Nishumura used "kyotaku" instead. To me that seems like a better term.

And as with the spelling, I don't think it's just a matter of semantics (or pedantics), and I encourage other opinions on these terms.


“Many people come, looking, looking. Some people come, see.”
                        —Nepalese saying

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#3 2009-01-01 15:13:32

Tairaku 太楽
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From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
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Re: Where did "hocchiku" come from?

Regarding the English usage of that spelling, that probably originated with the translations of Watazumi's LP liner notes back in the 60's. Since he's the one who originated that term for long jinashi and for whatever philosophical emphasis he placed on it, that's probably where it entered western nomenclature. And then proliferated. I think someone else on the forum also pointed out this spelling problem.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

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#4 2009-01-01 21:01:35

Peter Kororo
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Registered: 2008-06-21
Posts: 82
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Re: Where did "hocchiku" come from?

I see, that long, then I stand uncorrected--can't argue with the sixties!

And I suppose the meaning of the term is a too-worn topic, yet seems to remain unresolved, used but not revealed. Perhaps if I find the time to pick through the 6 pages of results I got searching the term, I'd gain some clarity as to whether playing honkyoku with spiritual intentions on a mere shakuhachi is a hopeless pursuit.


“Many people come, looking, looking. Some people come, see.”
                        —Nepalese saying

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#5 2009-01-01 21:48:19

Tairaku 太楽
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From: Tasmania
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Re: Where did "hocchiku" come from?

It's pretty obvious that Watazumido wanted to come up with a new word as a way of distinguishing himself from other shakuhachi players.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#6 2009-01-02 00:22:57

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Where did "hocchiku" come from?

Tairaku wrote:

I think someone else on the forum also pointed out this spelling problem.

Not a huge problem, withall: how many of us are bound to be uttering the word in the presence of Japanese, and how many Japanese are going to know anything about it, rightly or wrongly pronounced.

An important matter only for the ethers....


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#7 2009-01-02 05:22:11

Tairaku 太楽
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From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
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Re: Where did "hocchiku" come from?

Peter Kororo wrote:

I've been able to spend some time with Ishibashi Gudo, who studied with the originator, one assumes, of the houchiku flute as we understand it, Watazumi Douso, and he has given me many that he's collected or made, as well as what he call "jinashikan," to play, and he told me, and gave me many flutes to play to show me, that the difference was in the wide, open sound for a houchiku. My take on it was that the attitude, mentally and physically, one adopts, to play them, is much receptive, perhaps, in being introverted, not trying for a big sound because the sound doesn't focus like with jinashikan or shakuhachi.

I have a bunch of Ishibashi's flutes. Some are "introverted" others kick ass, for lack of a better term. But even those are subtle. When he showed you the flutes did he call them hocchiku (or any variation)? He referred to them as either "Jin Nyodo" or "Watazumi" flutes when I was there.

I think this whole thing about "hocchiku" or whatever is something Watazumi used for himself, maybe he did not intend other people to use the term.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#8 2009-01-02 08:00:27

Peter Kororo
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Registered: 2008-06-21
Posts: 82
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Re: Where did "hocchiku" come from?

Ed wrote:

Not a huge problem, withall: how many of us are bound to be uttering the word in the presence of Japanese, and how many Japanese are going to know anything about it, rightly or wrongly pronounced.

They certainly won't put the two words together, you're right. I just think it's more respectful to be accurate in the usage of their language. If you explain the two words you put together after pronouncing the word houchiku anyone will get it. But if you say hocchiku and then explain it as hou and chiku, nothing will register.

I deal a lot with the short vs. long vowel thing because I'm often translating words from Chinese, and it can go either way so I'm guessing some times. It's a very big difference for a native speaker, especially when the wrong pronounciation means you're saying something dirty, which is very easy to do--no better motivator to appreciate these differences than being embarrassed over and over again!

Also, the long-short vowel is present in very few languages, and it's kind of like ma....hard to appreciate if you haven't heard it a lot.

Brian wrote :

It's pretty obvious that Watazumido wanted to come up with a new word as a way of distinguishing himself from other shakuhachi players.

Definitely, as far as having the heavily value-laden term. I can completely see how unadorned bamboo, both as an idea, and from playing such flutes, is a special thing. My favorite ji-ari flutes have little ji, even though it's arguably true that more ji, at least up top, helps them ring. But I'm just not sure it's so important that it overwhelms any other factor in playing honkyoku.

It's also known that Watazumi doso didn't really play clothes-pole flutes, he picked the best from among many his maker made. And considering Yokoyama sensei's attitude of the music being the main thing, the player and flute just tools for expressing it, means there may be advantages to each type of shakuhachi. In other words, I think best to use terms that are more physically descriptive than judgemental, my flute's holier than yours. I prefer to leave the possibilities more open.

Years ago another older mentor of mine, Okazaki Jishu, who studied for a long time with Jin Nyodo, said "I like shakuhachi that take a lot of breath to play but produce a small sound." So in '92 when I left for India after staying at his place he gave me a nice jinashi 2.2 stamped Jin Nyodo I liked because it played too easily and loudly! I stupidly traded it when I got back to Japan for the Takusen 2.4 that I then sold to you back in '98......

As to Ishibashi-san, he made a point of them being called "kyotaku" in addition to houchiku (I just have to go with the correct spelling, I can't help I'm a language nerd). And I got the feeling he's not that comfortable with the term. As you know he's not into ceremony in the least, he's very down-to-earth, as well as being very open and generous with his knowledge--with me at least he talks non-stop for hours and I just try to absorb as much as I can. I think he believes the kyotaku are better suited to honkyoku, but he also seems to have respect for all kind of shakuhachi, as he emphasizes playing small-bore, or out of tune, jinashikan in the way they "want" to be played. That to me is real musicianship and non-dogmatic spirituality.


“Many people come, looking, looking. Some people come, see.”
                        —Nepalese saying

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#9 2009-01-02 13:27:29

chikuzen
Dai Shihan/Dokyoku
From: Cleveland Heights,OH 44118
Registered: 2005-10-24
Posts: 402
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Re: Where did "hocchiku" come from?

Just call them Houchiku and spell it this way. The only reason people went alone with the former spelling is that there were no kanji involved when spelling it in English. The first character is "Hou", Darhma, law, principle and the second "chiku", bamboo, or nature. These were parameters that Watazumi professed for his "music" so indeed he made the name up.  It's simple. Peter, you're explanations were educational but I don't see why there's any reason to be so apologetic about something so cut and dried. Nip it in the bud, please.


Michael Chikuzen Gould

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#10 2009-01-02 14:41:09

baian
Member
Registered: 2006-03-28
Posts: 83

Re: Where did "hocchiku" come from?

Am i understanding this correctly ?  Does this mean all the instances of  reiho should really  be turned into reihou also ?

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#11 2009-01-02 15:50:49

Tairaku 太楽
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From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
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Re: Where did "hocchiku" come from?

baian wrote:

Am i understanding this correctly ?  Does this mean all the instances of  reiho should really  be turned into reihou also ?

Yes and if Geni, for example, wants to make a rap/shakuhachi song about "bitches and hoes" he has to say, "bitches and hous" wink


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#12 2009-01-02 15:57:38

-Prem
Member
From: The Big Apple
Registered: 2007-03-27
Posts: 73

Re: Where did "hocchiku" come from?

Hello-
I think the only reason 法竹 was spelled Hotchiku and Hocchiku is because on one of Watazumidoso's albums he had the kana written next to the kanji. It was spelled ほっちく、which as you know is written in romaji as Hotchiku or less commonly Hocchiku.

When I was in Japan I had never met anyone, including Watazumidoso's deshi Higashi Myogi, ever refer to their bamboo as Hotchiku. Simply shakuhachi. I really believe that the western shakuhachi players really started using that word more.

Also, I thought that Ishi Bashi Gudo was a deshi of Mugai Fukushima and Higashi Myogi. I did not think that he directly studied with Watazumidoso although at this point he seems to be one of the only torchbearers to that style. I did also meet Kanda Kayu who put out the re-issues of the Watazumidoso's LPs. I believe he studied with Higashi Myogi.

Just my 2 cents.

-Prem

Last edited by -Prem (2009-01-02 16:04:50)

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#13 2009-01-02 16:42:07

chikuzen
Dai Shihan/Dokyoku
From: Cleveland Heights,OH 44118
Registered: 2005-10-24
Posts: 402
Website

Re: Where did "hocchiku" come from?

It could be that somebody else is responsible for the way it was spelled on the album. Normal rules applied, it wouldn't be spelled that way in Japanese Hiragana. Of course, nothing was that normal about Watazumi.  Maybe it should be Hot Chiku.


Michael Chikuzen Gould

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#14 2009-01-02 16:58:55

baian
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Registered: 2006-03-28
Posts: 83

Re: Where did "hocchiku" come from?

im glad no one has said rock and roll houchiku yet in this discussion smile

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#15 2009-01-02 17:03:08

-Prem
Member
From: The Big Apple
Registered: 2007-03-27
Posts: 73

Re: Where did "hocchiku" come from?

Good point Michael!

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#16 2009-01-02 17:04:59

Tairaku 太楽
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From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
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Re: Where did "hocchiku" come from?

It is a little known fact that Muddy Waters studied with Watazumido. This is the origin of the song, "Houchi Ku Chi Man".

But then Watazumi excommunicated him for playing a jiari slide guitar. wink


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

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#17 2009-01-02 17:14:22

-Prem
Member
From: The Big Apple
Registered: 2007-03-27
Posts: 73

Re: Where did "hocchiku" come from?

Now we're getting somewhere!

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#18 2009-01-02 17:35:19

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Where did "hocchiku" come from?



   big_smile big_smile big_smile   big_smile big_smile big_smile   big_smile big_smile big_smile


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#19 2009-01-02 17:47:52

Tairaku 太楽
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From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
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Re: Where did "hocchiku" come from?

-Prem wrote:

Also, I thought that Ishi Bashi Gudo was a deshi of Mugai Fukushima and Higashi Myogi. I did not think that he directly studied with Watazumidoso

Apparently he studied with both Jin Nyodo and Watazumi.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#20 2009-01-02 20:11:22

geni
Performer & Teacher
From: Boston MA
Registered: 2005-12-21
Posts: 830
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Re: Where did "hocchiku" come from?

Hot Chika works for me ;-)

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#21 2009-01-02 23:03:55

Jim Thompson
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From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: Where did "hocchiku" come from?

Tairaku wrote:

It is a little known fact that Muddy Waters studied with Watazumido. This is the origin of the song, "Houchi Ku Chi Man".

I heard they actually did a gig down at one of the local HONKYokuTONKS.


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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#22 2009-01-03 03:36:14

Bruce Hunter
Member
From: Apple Valley CA
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 258

Re: Where did "hocchiku" come from?

houchikuchi girl - - - CHARO!


Develop infallible technique and then lay yourself at the mercy of inspiration. - Anon.

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#23 2009-01-03 05:55:47

Peter Kororo
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Registered: 2008-06-21
Posts: 82
Website

Re: Where did "hocchiku" come from?

chikuzen wrote:

Just call them Houchiku and spell it this way. Peter, you're explanations were educational but I don't see why there's any reason to be so apologetic about something so cut and dried. Nip it in the bud, please.

Yes, I've developed this Japanese habit of apologizing unnecessarily! Too late to nip it in the bud but I'm working on it ;-).


“Many people come, looking, looking. Some people come, see.”
                        —Nepalese saying

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#24 2009-01-03 07:06:24

Josh
PhD
From: Grand Island, NY/Nara, Japan
Registered: 2005-11-14
Posts: 305
Website

Re: Where did "hocchiku" come from?

I think Prem summed it up pretty well. Watazaumi's liner's clearly have the pronunciation for the characters of 法竹 in parenthesis as (ほっちく or Hocchiku).  Tom or somebody was only referring to the way that Watazumi made the distinction in pronunciation. But still not a widely used term.

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#25 2009-01-04 05:03:02

Peter Kororo
Member
Registered: 2008-06-21
Posts: 82
Website

Re: Where did "hocchiku" come from?

It's Official!  Whereas I had only checked with a number of native speakers, (and after reading Josh's post enough checked with two more), none of whom could accept ほっちく hocchiku, Josh emailed me today that he found it as an uncommon alternate pronunciation in the Kojien. It shows, as Josh remarked again in his email to me, something about Watazumi. Though I guess his choice of the pronunciation "Wata tsumi" for 海童 should be a clue to that.

Well, in the spirit of Watazumi, since hocchiku has become standard, I'll use houchiku ;-).


“Many people come, looking, looking. Some people come, see.”
                        —Nepalese saying

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