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#1 2009-03-09 01:44:40

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

converting Kanji titles to Romanji

I've got a stack of shakuhachi music that I inherited. They are classical sankyoku and honkyoku, you know, the little green and brown booklets that fold up. Anybody have any suggestions on how I can convert the kanji titles to their respective romanji spellings? I've got a lot of them and without romanji titles I might as well not have them. Any helpful websites or.....?  Help would be appreciated, I'm stuck.
                                Thanks
                                        Jim


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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#2 2009-03-09 02:03:09

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: converting Kanji titles to Romanji

http://communication.ucsd.edu/shaku/kawase_index.html

Your scores have roman numerals written on them, correct? You can correlate with this list.

Now you just have to learn them! wink


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#3 2009-03-09 02:22:06

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: converting Kanji titles to Romanji

Thanks Brian,
      My scores do not have romanji numbers but maybe Bruce can help me. I'll give him a call. He's fairly close. Do I have to learn them if I just want to talk about them?


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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#4 2009-03-09 02:40:26

Elliot K
Member
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 132
Website

Re: converting Kanji titles to Romanji

Jim,
   Here's the first Chikuyusha page with the "Green Books" in order:

    http://www.chikuyusha.jp/shop/cgi-bin/list.cgi?ctg_id=g

Some of the titles will be hard to correlate due to the style of calligraphy, but you should be able to match them up pretty well. 
If you send me a scan of the titles you can't translate I'd be happy to help out.
Good luck,

Elliot

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#5 2009-03-09 03:07:04

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: converting Kanji titles to Romanji

Jim Thompson wrote:

My scores do not have romanji numbers

That's strange because most of mine do.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#6 2009-03-09 03:49:01

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: converting Kanji titles to Romanji

Elliot,
    Thanks. I couldn't get server on that site to respond. I'll try again later. Maybe a temporary problem. It sounds like a site I really want to get to. I appreciate your offer to help.

Brian,
    Are the numbers on your scores part of the original printing or something somebody added later? Are they on the outer cover or inside? i don't to have romanji numbers anywhere.


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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#7 2009-03-09 12:53:16

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: converting Kanji titles to Romanji

Jim Thompson wrote:

Brian,
    Are the numbers on your scores part of the original printing or something somebody added later? Are they on the outer cover or inside? i don't to have romanji numbers anywhere.

FWIW: I've never seen Romanji numerals actually printed on green books.

Jim, Chikuzen would also be willing, I think to help you with translations if you send him some scans. If you do, I suggest numbering each scan, so
you'll have an index to refer to when he translates them. He's been doing a fair amount of Minyo lately, and is pretty familiar with Yoneya book titles.


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#8 2009-03-09 16:47:28

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: converting Kanji titles to Romanji

Jim Thompson wrote:

Brian,
    Are the numbers on your scores part of the original printing or something somebody added later? Are they on the outer cover or inside? i don't to have romanji numbers anywhere.

They are stamped on the outside cover where the Japanese titles are written. They are stamps, not part of the basic printing. But I checked and only some of them have it. A lot of these have been continuously in print for decades, I assume they only stamped them after a certain time.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#9 2009-03-09 17:11:48

ABRAXAS
Member
Registered: 2009-01-17
Posts: 353

Re: converting Kanji titles to Romanji

Elliot K wrote:

Jim,
   Here's the first Chikuyusha page with the "Green Books" in order:

    http://www.chikuyusha.jp/shop/cgi-bin/list.cgi?ctg_id=g

Some of the titles will be hard to correlate due to the style of calligraphy, but you should be able to match them up pretty well. 
If you send me a scan of the titles you can't translate I'd be happy to help out.
Good luck,

Elliot

Is there anyone in the states selling these?


"Shakuhachi music stirs up both gods and demons." -- Ikkyu.

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#10 2009-03-09 17:47:47

Bruce
Member
From: San Diego
Registered: 2006-12-10
Posts: 65
Website

Re: converting Kanji titles to Romanji

Monty Levenson has some at http://shakuhachi.com


Everything is perfect, it just needs a little improvement.
        - Suzuki Roshi

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#11 2009-03-09 19:17:18

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: converting Kanji titles to Romanji

ABRAXAS wrote:

Is there anyone in the states selling these?

John Singer has a bunch for sale.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#12 2009-03-09 19:34:19

ABRAXAS
Member
Registered: 2009-01-17
Posts: 353

Re: converting Kanji titles to Romanji

Cool! Thanks Tairaku and Bruce.

Am I assuming to much in thinking these are considered "standard" as far as honkyoku scores go?

I'm fairly certain these are the ones Bruce Heubner recommends as such in his DVDs.

Last edited by ABRAXAS (2009-03-09 19:35:46)


"Shakuhachi music stirs up both gods and demons." -- Ikkyu.

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#13 2009-03-09 21:01:06

Elliot K
Member
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 132
Website

Re: converting Kanji titles to Romanji

ABRAXAS wrote: Am I assuming to much in thinking these are considered "standard" as far as honkyoku scores go?

"Standard", yes. "Honkyoku", not necessarily. Of the almost 200 scores available from Chikuyusha, less than a dozen are Honkyoku. The majority are Sankyoku; ensembles pieces meant to be played by shakuhachi plus shamisen and/or koto, almost always with vocals. This includes many pieces that are considered standard repertoire for shakuhachi players (i.e., Rokudan no Shirabe, Chidori no Kyoku, Kurokami, etc.).
When folks talk about Green Books from Chikuyusha they're usually talking about Sankyoku.
Hope this helps,

Elliot

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#14 2009-03-09 22:19:57

ABRAXAS
Member
Registered: 2009-01-17
Posts: 353

Re: converting Kanji titles to Romanji

Elliot K wrote:

ABRAXAS wrote: Am I assuming to much in thinking these are considered "standard" as far as honkyoku scores go?

"Standard", yes. "Honkyoku", not necessarily. Of the almost 200 scores available from Chikuyusha, less than a dozen are Honkyoku. The majority are Sankyoku; ensembles pieces meant to be played by shakuhachi plus shamisen and/or koto, almost always with vocals. This includes many pieces that are considered standard repertoire for shakuhachi players (i.e., Rokudan no Shirabe, Chidori no Kyoku, Kurokami, etc.).
When folks talk about Green Books from Chikuyusha they're usually talking about Sankyoku.
Hope this helps,

Elliot

Thank You! The comment on the video was kind of open-ended.

Still good stuff. Thanks everyone for the info.


"Shakuhachi music stirs up both gods and demons." -- Ikkyu.

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#15 2009-03-10 11:25:13

Nyogetsu
Kyu Dan Dai Shihan
From: NYC
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 259
Website

Re: converting Kanji titles to Romanji

Hi all,

1-The Green Sankuoku books (CHIKUYUSHA) are from the KAWASE line - the largest line of Kinko-Ryu. The numbers are not stamped for all CHIKUYUSHA printings.
2-There are also slightly different notation from the YAMAGUCHI line (CHIKUMESHA).
3-Kinko-Ryu are divided into AO-FU (literally "Blue"covered notation.. but in practice "Green" covered notation - Blue and Green are often the same thing to the Japanese !), and SHIRO-FU ("White" covered notation).
4-SHIRO-FU are the line of NOTOMI and ARAKI. They are considerably different.
5-Of course, TOZAN-RYU is a totally different ( but quite learnable, particularly for a Western Musician) type of notation.
6-This is just the beginning, there is more data, but probably not relevant for most of the Forum subscribers. In my opinion the two top American scholar/players for any questions about these two different notations are:

David Wheeler- CHIKUYUSHA
Ralph Samuelson- SHIRO-FU and CHIKUMESHA

I have a DVD just released of the SHODEN GAIKYOKU (with ornaments) using Chikuyusha Notation (which is what I learned 37 years ago).
In it I perform solo versions of KUROKAMI, ROKUDAN NO SHIRABE, SHINTAKASAGO, CHIDORI NO KYOKU, YUKI, HACHIDAN NO SHIRABE, YUGAO, and CHAONDO.
These are meant for my students to study along with.
If you are interested in purchasing it (not expensive), please contact me offline, at <nyogetsu@gmail.com>

Be Well,
Roonnie Nyogetsu Reishin Seldin


The magic's in the music and the music's in me...
"Do you believe in Magic"- The Lovin' Spoonful

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#16 2009-03-10 13:15:46

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: converting Kanji titles to Romanji

Hey Everybuddy
    Thanks for all your assistance and offers of help. They are truly appreciated.
     Bruce Jones has a really good site for Kanji to Romanji convertions sorted by numbers of Kanji figures in the title. it makes the search very manageable.
     Once again, I'm amazed at what a wonderful tool this forum is. Nowhere else could I tap into such knowledge so handily. We are not alone.


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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