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#1 2009-03-23 06:13:06

dreamofnobody
Member
From: Russia, Krasnodar
Registered: 2007-01-26
Posts: 50

utaguchi shape

Hi everybody.

It’s interresting to speak some about utaguchi. Just one time again… smile

I’ve heard that Kinko and Myoan flutes have some deeper and narrow utaguchi shape, the Tozan flutes have not so deep and some wider utaguchi shape. At the same time the first type flutes have more rich sound colour, but it’s harder to play on them; and the Tozan flutes have more control and faster response.

So there is some parameters we can mark out like as sound colour, easiness of  playing in the different octaves, response and may be some other.

I make my flutes by the feel in most, so I make the utaguchi starting from 1mm deepness, then play and listen the sound. Then I make it deeper and so on. I choose sound and feelings I liked most.  My own observation that less deep utaguchi makes it easier to play second octave, but tone in first octave is some weak and smooth. Making the utaguchi deeper adding some air to the sound and make it more interresting. But that is my poor expieriense and my not very deep view.

I know that makers make utaguchi some wider by sanding some inner walls of the bore near the fringes of the utaguchi. I have no much expieriense in this practise, just tried a little.

It’s very interresting to hear your opinions, observations, feelings and expierience on the next qestions. What happens when we make utaguchi deeper? And next what happens when we make utaguchi wider then the deepness stays constant?

Last edited by dreamofnobody (2009-03-23 06:19:32)


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#2 2009-03-23 10:25:23

Jeff Cairns
teacher, performer,promoter of shakuhachi
From: Kumamoto, Japan
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 517
Website

Re: utaguchi shape

Dreamofnobody - I can't answer your questions, but it seems that you are well on the way to making your signature instruments.


shakuhachi flute
I step out into the wind
with holes in my bones

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#3 2009-03-23 11:40:58

dreamofnobody
Member
From: Russia, Krasnodar
Registered: 2007-01-26
Posts: 50

Re: utaguchi shape

Hi Jeff. I'm very glad to hear you.

Thanks for your words, but I think I've just started big_smile


flutemakerlab@gmail.com

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#4 2009-03-24 12:42:43

Alan Adler
Member
From: Los Altos, California
Registered: 2009-02-15
Posts: 78

Re: utaguchi shape

My experimental flutes sound richest with a very wide edge.  I scoop out the inside on the sides to make the edge as wide as the bore.

Alan

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#5 2009-03-24 16:24:55

dreamofnobody
Member
From: Russia, Krasnodar
Registered: 2007-01-26
Posts: 50

Re: utaguchi shape

Thanks Alan.
I've just read the thread about your flutes whith the wide utaguchi and visit of Ken La Cosse. I've read info in Wikipedia. It seems you are nice and interresting man. smile

Alan, what do you mean then you say that your flutes sound richest? Is it about the sound colour?

And one else, what additional you can say about characteristics of your flutes(I mean the flutes that have the wide(your) utaguchi)? I mean may be these parameters I wrote some upper. May be Ken would add something.

Last edited by dreamofnobody (2009-03-24 17:09:45)


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#6 2009-03-24 17:19:32

Lorka
Member
Registered: 2007-02-27
Posts: 303

Re: utaguchi shape

Hey Alan, did you invent the aeropress coffee maker?  If so, many wakeful thanks.  I use that thing every day.  Very convenient.  If not, well, it is a cool way to make your coffee.  First coffee, then shakuhachi.


Gravity is the root of grace

~ Lao Tzu~

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#7 2009-03-24 17:36:46

Mujitsu
Administrator/Flutemaker
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-05
Posts: 885
Website

Re: utaguchi shape

Dream,

A wider utaguchi seems to help in giving a shakuhachi more response. It's found more often in modern shakuhachi where response is a concern.

What's interesting to note is that in some older shakuhachi (and others) which are presumably made with less concern for power and response, the utaguchi width is often smaller and not as deep. Different practices for different sounds.

Ken

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#8 2009-03-24 22:06:02

Alan Adler
Member
From: Los Altos, California
Registered: 2009-02-15
Posts: 78

Re: utaguchi shape

dreamofnobody wrote:

Thanks Alan.
I've just read the thread about your flutes whith the wide utaguchi and visit of Ken La Cosse. I've read info in Wikipedia. It seems you are nice and interresting man. smile

Alan, what do you mean then you say that your flutes sound richest? Is it about the sound colour?

And one else, what additional you can say about characteristics of your flutes(I mean the flutes that have the wide(your) utaguchi)? I mean may be these parameters I wrote some upper. May be Ken would add something.

Hi Dream,

My wide edges produce a louder tone (for a given amount of breath) and have stronger harmonic content.  At first I made edges only slightly wider than a traditional shakuhachi.  But I kept on trying ever wider edges and found that the tone power and quality was best when the edge was as wide as the bore.  Yes, I did try edges even wider than the bore but the tone suffered.

I mentioned in an earlier post that Mujitsu could match my tone with his traditional shakuhachi, but he had to blow harder to do that.  I get a lot of tone power with surprisingly little breath.

One thing I greatly enjoy with my flutes is the freedom to vary harmonic content with small changes in embouchure.  At first those changes were somewhat random.  But the more I play, the more I can deliberately produce the tone I want.  I can vary the tone from a flute sound to something closer to an oboe or even a saxophone.

But don't take my word for it.  Try making a wide-edged flute yourself.

Best,

Alan

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#9 2009-03-24 22:08:01

Alan Adler
Member
From: Los Altos, California
Registered: 2009-02-15
Posts: 78

Re: utaguchi shape

Lorka wrote:

Hey Alan, did you invent the aeropress coffee maker?  If so, many wakeful thanks.  I use that thing every day.  Very convenient.  If not, well, it is a cool way to make your coffee.  First coffee, then shakuhachi.

Yes Lorka.  And thank you sincerely for your kind words.

Best,

Alan

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#10 2009-03-24 22:44:31

Lorka
Member
Registered: 2007-02-27
Posts: 303

Re: utaguchi shape

Awesome.  Coffee and Shakuhachi.


Gravity is the root of grace

~ Lao Tzu~

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#11 2009-03-25 03:00:52

Bruce Hunter
Member
From: Apple Valley CA
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 258

Re: utaguchi shape

Coffeehachi! What a way to start the day! You creative types...write some stuff for us to play during this special time of the day! (I've tried, but they all sound like a buncha meri/daimeri equivalent pitch exercises.) Uh-oh, but then the coffee's gonna get cold. Oh well, can't have everything.

later...


Develop infallible technique and then lay yourself at the mercy of inspiration. - Anon.

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#12 2009-03-25 06:09:39

dreamofnobody
Member
From: Russia, Krasnodar
Registered: 2007-01-26
Posts: 50

Re: utaguchi shape

Mujitsu wrote:

Dream,

A wider utaguchi seems to help in giving a shakuhachi more response. It's found more often in modern shakuhachi where response is a concern.

What's interesting to note is that in some older shakuhachi (and others) which are presumably made with less concern for power and response, the utaguchi width is often smaller and not as deep. Different practices for different sounds.

Ken

Thanks Ken.

That is the things I've talked in the first post. So great, whider utaguchi gives more response, but what we lose? There is no gain without loss that is the common principle.


flutemakerlab@gmail.com

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#13 2009-03-25 06:14:07

dreamofnobody
Member
From: Russia, Krasnodar
Registered: 2007-01-26
Posts: 50

Re: utaguchi shape

Alan Adler wrote:

Hi Dream,

My wide edges produce a louder tone (for a given amount of breath) and have stronger harmonic content.  At first I made edges only slightly wider than a traditional shakuhachi.  But I kept on trying ever wider edges and found that the tone power and quality was best when the edge was as wide as the bore.  Yes, I did try edges even wider than the bore but the tone suffered.

I mentioned in an earlier post that Mujitsu could match my tone with his traditional shakuhachi, but he had to blow harder to do that.  I get a lot of tone power with surprisingly little breath.

One thing I greatly enjoy with my flutes is the freedom to vary harmonic content with small changes in embouchure.  At first those changes were somewhat random.  But the more I play, the more I can deliberately produce the tone I want.  I can vary the tone from a flute sound to something closer to an oboe or even a saxophone.

But don't take my word for it.  Try making a wide-edged flute yourself.

Best,

Alan

Thanks Alan. Very interresting info. I think I will try it.

Best of all.

Last edited by dreamofnobody (2009-03-25 06:14:45)


flutemakerlab@gmail.com

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#14 2009-03-25 06:15:48

dreamofnobody
Member
From: Russia, Krasnodar
Registered: 2007-01-26
Posts: 50

Re: utaguchi shape

Bruce Hunter wrote:

Coffeehachi! What a way to start the day!

I'm under my table big_smile


flutemakerlab@gmail.com

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#15 2009-03-25 06:17:50

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: utaguchi shape

Alan Adler wrote:

I mentioned in an earlier post that Mujitsu could match my tone with his traditional shakuhachi, but he had to blow harder to do that.  I get a lot of tone power with surprisingly little breath.

n

I find this a bit questionable. I'd like to do a side by side comparison of your flutes with Taimu and see what's louder. wink


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#16 2009-03-25 11:17:29

Alan Adler
Member
From: Los Altos, California
Registered: 2009-02-15
Posts: 78

Re: utaguchi shape

Tairaku wrote:

Alan Adler wrote:

I mentioned in an earlier post that Mujitsu could match my tone with his traditional shakuhachi, but he had to blow harder to do that.  I get a lot of tone power with surprisingly little breath.

I find this a bit questionable. I'd like to do a side by side comparison of your flutes with Taimu and see what's louder. wink

Hi Tairaku,

As I wrote earlier, "don't take my word for it.  Try making a wide-edged flute yourself."

By all means, give it a try.

Best regards,

Alan

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#17 2009-03-25 11:58:31

Alan Adler
Member
From: Los Altos, California
Registered: 2009-02-15
Posts: 78

Re: utaguchi shape

Hi All,

I'd like to add that (in addition to wide edges) there are other differences, which contribute to loudness, between my experimental flutes and traditional shakuhachi:

   My bores are not tapered.*

   My bores are smoother than the bamboo shakuhachi I've seen.*

   My bores are larger than the bamboo shakuhachi I've seen.

   My thin wall tubes result in less "chimney" around the holes.

All of the above enhance loudness.

I've marked the first two items with an asterisk, because any PVC flute has these same characteristics.

Best regards,

Alan

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#18 2009-03-25 12:42:15

Mujitsu
Administrator/Flutemaker
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-05
Posts: 885
Website

Re: utaguchi shape

Tairaku wrote:

Alan Adler wrote:

I mentioned in an earlier post that Mujitsu could match my tone with his traditional shakuhachi, but he had to blow harder to do that.  I get a lot of tone power with surprisingly little breath.

n

I find this a bit questionable. I'd like to do a side by side comparison of your flutes with Taimu and see what's louder. wink

(I'm sorry about the subject change here. I may have to divide this thread if it continues. Alan has made some comparisons of his experimental flutes with shakuhachi which could mislead some, without some additional perspective)


Alan is experimenting with the physics of end blown flutes and steering towards sounds and techniques that he enjoys as an individual. I find that refreshing. He's also a very nice and kind man.

It's important to note that his flutes are not intended to address the techniques necessary for playing shakuhachi music; meri, kari, volume, octave range, tone depth and range, etc. They exist outside the focus of shakuhachi and are concerned with different pursuits.

In terms of loudness and power, I found Alan's flutes capable of approximately half the volume of modern shakuhachi. They have relatively low volume, focused tone compared to shakuhachi and require a soft blowing technique.

In terms of getting a lot of "tone power with surprisingly little breath," I found they don't quite match modern shakuhachi. Relative to themselves, the statement makes sense since the sweet spot is found by blowing softly.

Alan, I don't mean any disrespect here. I admire your approach. It's just that you've made some comments comparing your flutes to shakuhachi which I feel are inaccurate.

Ken

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#19 2009-03-25 13:02:58

Alan Adler
Member
From: Los Altos, California
Registered: 2009-02-15
Posts: 78

Re: utaguchi shape

Hi Ken,

As you are the only shakuhachi player who has ever tried my flutes, I place great value in your comments.

Your comments about max volume are clear enough.  But are you saying that my flutes produce less volume than shakuhachi when each type is blown softly?

Best,

Alan

Last edited by Alan Adler (2009-03-25 13:05:22)

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#20 2009-03-25 14:00:53

Mujitsu
Administrator/Flutemaker
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-05
Posts: 885
Website

Re: utaguchi shape

Alan Adler wrote:

Hi Ken,

As you are the only shakuhachi player who has ever tried my flutes, I place great value in your comments.

Your comments about max volume are clear enough.  But are you saying that my flutes produce less volume than shakuhachi when each type is blown softly?

Best,

Alan

Alan,

I noticed the sweet spot of your flutes was found by blowing softly, but I didn't find them to have more volume than shakuhachi when blown softly. Relative to themselves, that's where the power is. Shakuhachi have a much wider sweet spot so they can still play with volume when blowing softly or with power.

Ultimately, it's probably unfair to compare the two. Your flutes are wonderful on their own and satisfy your particular curiosity as an experimenter and player. In that respect, they are different animals.

Cheers,

Ken

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#21 2009-03-25 17:59:34

Alan Adler
Member
From: Los Altos, California
Registered: 2009-02-15
Posts: 78

Re: utaguchi shape

Hi Ken,

Let's get together again to further compare tone with each of us blowing our own creations.  I suspect that our different perceptions stem from embouchure.  I'm still improving every day in my ability to blow my own flutes. 

I also suspect that the embouchure of my flutes is more critical than traditional shakuhachi.  My lips have to be just right or the tone suffers substantially.

Best,

Alan

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#22 2009-03-25 18:01:36

Alan Adler
Member
From: Los Altos, California
Registered: 2009-02-15
Posts: 78

Re: utaguchi shape

PS

What the plural of shakuhachi?  This forum's software deletes the "s" that I often put at the end of the word.

Alan

Last edited by Alan Adler (2009-03-25 18:01:54)

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#23 2009-03-25 18:09:09

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: utaguchi shape

Alan Adler wrote:

PS

What the plural of shakuhachi?  This forum's software deletes the "s" that I often put at the end of the word.

Alan

One shakuachi, two shakuhachi.


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#24 2009-04-08 08:53:59

Toby
Shakuhachi Scientist
From: out somewhere circling the sun
Registered: 2008-03-15
Posts: 405

Re: utaguchi shape

There are (almost) no plurals in Japanese so most all things have the same ending for one or more. I found this strange at first, but now it seems to make perfect sense. After all, why should there be more difference between one and two than two and three?

Alan, I will be in your 'hood later in the month and will give you a call so that (hopefully) we can get together. I will bring along a shakuhachi and my okuralo (shakuhachi headjoint married to a concert flute) so that we can compare notes. Perhaps we can even get Mujitsu over and have a party smile

I have an idea for you on a new fipple design, but the mechanics need some rumination.

Toby

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#25 2009-04-08 12:47:05

Mujitsu
Administrator/Flutemaker
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-05
Posts: 885
Website

Re: utaguchi shape

Toby wrote:

Perhaps we can even get Mujitsu over and have a party smile

Toby and Alan,

I find shakuhachi and Bombay (or No. 209) to mix quite well. Stay in touch!

Ken

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