Mujitsu and Tairaku's Shakuhachi BBQ

Here's my take on it: If someone hadn't given me an ultra-cheap out of tune shakuhachi to tinker with I would have never reached the point of being fascinated enough to put in the time required to get the first coherent note out of the thing. If I didn't have one to tinker with long enough to figure out how to get a sound out of it, I certainly would have never moved on to get something more expensive and at least properly crafted enough to be in tune with itself and other instruments. Likewise this "intermediate" level shakuhachi allowed the experience of deciding whether or not it was of enough interest (or that I might have enough aptitude) to satisfy myself that I should invest in a more serious and expensive instrument, such as a Taimu (or any other for that matter). Of course I am just a beginner and don't have ANY pretenses of being a great or even mediocre player, yet, and no inclination to perform or teach. It is purely a venture of self-gratification of personal interest. But is becoming a master, performer, or teacher a pre-requisite intent for taking up shakuhachi?

I think a collateral question could be: Do any "masters", performers, or teachers keep any fair-to-middling level instruments just because you enjoy them for whatever reason? Does it justify itself?

Another question might be: What about shakuhachi that you made for yourself, that you just enjoy playing for the overall process of a personal connection to deeply personal music? would it sell for over $200-500 if you put it up for sale? Or, is it invaluable because it is your personal piece?

On the consumer end, at the very least, less expensive but basically functional flutes provide a stepping stone to something better later, possibly in keeping with what level of commtiment or ability warrants.

Valid?

ABRAXAS wrote:

Here's my take on it: If someone hadn't given me an ultra-cheap out of tune shakuhachi to tinker with I would have never reached the point of being fascinated enough to put in the time required to get the first coherent note out of the thing. If I didn't have one to tinker with long enough to figure out how to get a sound out of it, I certainly would have never moved on to get something more expensive and at least properly crafted enough to be in tune with itself and other instruments. Likewise this "intermediate" level shakuhachi allowed the experience of deciding whether or not it was of enough interest (or that I might have enough aptitude) to satisfy myself that I should invest in a more serious and expensive instrument, such as a Taimu (or any other for that matter). Of course I am just a beginner and don't have ANY pretenses of being a great or even mediocre player, yet, and no inclination to perform or teach. It is purely a venture of self-gratification of personal interest. But is becoming a master, performer, or teacher a pre-requisite intent for taking up shakuhachi?

I think a collateral question could be: Do any "masters", performers, or teachers keep any fair-to-middling level instruments just because you enjoy them for whatever reason? Does it justify itself?

Another question might be: What about shakuhachi that you made for yourself, that you just enjoy playing for the overall process of a personal connection to deeply personal music? would it sell for over $200-500 if you put it up for sale? Or, is it invaluable because it is your personal piece?

On the consumer end, at the very least, less expensive but basically functional flutes provide a stepping stone to something better later, possibly in keeping with what level of commtiment or ability warrants.

Valid?

Brian presented the question here from the perspective of the maker alone.  Should a maker always aspire towards the heavens, or should he make a range of flutes to cater to the market - even though this may be cutting corners in what is 'the best?'

It is an interesting question about artistic pursuits and one's personal goals.  I think every maker wants to be the next Shiro, but the demands of life and degrees of talent often force makers (and artists in every realm) to lower their aspirations.   I know my own personal artistic aspirations have been quite simply murdered by the demands of life.  (Or, arguably, murdered by my middle class sensibilities.)

In the end this is really a psychological / artistic conversation between the maker and him/herself that actually has little relevance for the community.  Why?  The question of what shakuhachi will be produced at what quality and at what price will always be answered by the marketplace which is far more powerful than any individual maker. 

Abraxas' response defines the want of the marketplace:  We want reasonably priced shakuhachi so someone is going to make 'em.   If it wasn't Perry, someone else would step up to fill that role.   And, actually, there are about 3 - 5 more makers looking to compete with Perry on the same piece of property.  (Interestingly enough this increased competition in the low end of the marketplace will NOT hurt the makers because at this point it will simply serve to create more demand for shakuhachi.  The market is far far far from being saturated at which point there is true competition.)

And if you look at the shakuhachi of most of the high-end makers they actually cater to several different parts of the marketplace in their output.   I once had the pleasure of visiting Gyoksui's home and he had actually carefully segmented his shakuhachi by the spending power of his clients.  In one pile were the $2,000 shakuhachi almost all of which were a light tan color.   And next were instruments $4,000 - $5,000 all dark brown and some black.  And he had a special case of shakuhachi all almost black with gold utagachi and finely worked joints and those were $10,000.   And obviously the pile of $2,000 shakuhachi were a lot larger than the case with $10,000 shakuhachi.   

Should Gyoksui has focused only on the $10 K shakuhachi?  Of course not!  I suspect he had done the math and realized how many he could sell each year at each price point and produced accordingly.   And his clients were ecstatic to get the best shakuhachi they could at the price they could afford.   

So, for me, there are two conversations here:  one about the artistic aspirations of an individual which is only relevant and actionable on an individual level - and the other is about the marketplace.  And that conversation never rises above theory as the power of the market is almost always beyond any individual's control.

AND ONE MORE VERY IMPORTANT COMMENT FROM A VERY DIFFERENT BUT VERY RELATED TOPIC:  There is nothing, truly nothing, less Buddhist and less meditative than lusting after high end flutes.

Last edited by Seth (2009-03-24 02:21:19)

I'm waaaay more familiar with guitars than i am shakuhachi but, 

     Even the 3 most famous "brands" in the guitar world  - Gibson, Fender, and Martin, make different levels of instrument.  I know i'm stretching the analogy a bit, but Fender has Squier (Low end), Mexican made (Middle) and American Made instruments.  Gibson has Epiphone.   Martin has their X-Series (made in Mexico)   Why not shakuhachi?

     There are many many people (like myself) who perform regularly on these instruments.   I've played at the Hardly Strictly Bluegrass Festival in San Francisco (80,000+ people) with a Chinese made "Blueridge" acoustic guitar (about $500).  Nobody noticed.   It did the job for me.   Sure I have more expensive guitars.   But that's not the point, as soon as i picked up this guitar, i fell in love with it and i like it more than my american martin HD-28 wich was over 5x the price.

I always tell my students....  "Close your eyes and open your ears".   As long as it is a well playing instrument..
with no serious tuning issues.  i don't see the problem.     

Are Monty's student flutes "crap" at $415?   I seriously doubt it.   

I've made hundreds of flutes and realize how hard it is to make a "good" one.  (i'm still waiting....lol)   I just had the drive to make my own because  there was nooooo way i was going to pay $2000 on something i wasn't even sure i was going to like.    It's not like i can just walk down to the local music store and pick one up.  they're a little hard to come by.   

i'm glad that there's people like Perry around.  He helped me get my start.   god knows the world needs more people like him.

jacques

Sorry for OT

jaybeemusic wrote:

I just had the drive to make my own because  there was nooooo way i was going to pay $2000 on something i wasn't even sure i was going to like.

But couldn't then the solution be to pick the master who's sound you like the best and ask him about the maker(s) of the flutes he likes for which kind of music. Or even, if you are lucky, he'll pick the flute for you. With such flute you will know which side of the equation is not correct.

Last edited by marek (2009-03-24 09:19:12)

I am just a beginner too but I feel a maker should be able to offer everyone the opportunity of owning a flute. If the fute has to be made with cheaper materials and less time taken on it then that should be done.I know that there are probably a lot of people out there that cannot afford a 2000 dollar flute but would love to play shakuhachi. Why leave them out of the shakuhachi experience?I know everyday I play my flute I love it more and more. Perhaps someday I will be able to pay 2000 dollars but right now I know that cannot happen. Why should makers leave people out of the loop because of price?

Last edited by purehappiness (2009-03-24 11:08:19)

Seems to me that this is the east\west cultural question restated.
In the east a good maker would apprentice to a master, do what they were told for many years until they had acquired the skills, then further progress would be by small increments with little radical change - a sort of "conservative" approach, valuing tradition above all.
In the west we are more likely to be driven by a passionate approach, learning from anything that seems to help, trying wildly experimental approaches And Making Mistakes - an "evolutionary" approach valuing functionality above all, and hopefully achieving mastery in the end.
Neither can be said to be best. We are what we are - so long as we do That to the best of our ability, what more can be said?

PS - Worse that Britney? Has this made it out of the UK?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFGLIFX0Huo

Seth, Lusting for high end flutes from the player perspective is perhaps not very meditative or Buddist-like. (playing them because they are nice and sound great is).
From the perspective of the (Western) maker: making the best possible flute from given materials, given time and given boundaries (money etc.) is very zen to me.

Okay, I think we all can agree that the westernisation of the shakuhachi may be keeping it alive and preventing it from dying out with the masters.
If it wasn't for cheap flutes, I wouldn't be playing! Which I think is the case for a lot of people. I know it is not very zen-like, but I have been craving a high end flute for the longest time! Actually I am in the dilema of feeling it would be immoral of me to buy a high end flute even if I had the money. I currently have enough in savings for a couple of taimus', but that money is for family vacations and emergencies (with 2 kids those come easily). If the guilt didn't kill me for buying one, my wife would.
Now another very important thing is that I think some makers have no choice. Not everyone has access to high quality Japanese Madake. But that should not stop them from making and selling flutes.

I keep thinking about the story I just read about the pilot flute. How it was just left with the men to use. That shows how we can sometimes hold too much value on things that are impermanent.I don't want to start another heated argument though so that is all I will say.

Mujitsu wrote:

It remains an unresolved quandary for me. What creates opportunity also creates dilution. I'm concerned where the shakuhachi is going in the West. Perhaps it is just the way it is and the shakuhachi will go where it goes? I also can't help but think these are times we must think and act with responsibility and vision.

It seems to me that the only way to resolve such a quandary is to continue to do the very best, growing, work you can, and let the ashes fall where
they may, because there's nowt you can do about 'dilution' anyway. We here in the west will never have a system like the traditional Japanese makers
had.

Besides, the shakuhachi is such an idiosyncratic, exotic, esoteric and difficult instrument to learn that I don't see dilution as being much of an issue.

Purehappiness wrote:
"I feel a maker should be able to offer everyone the opportunity of owning a flute"

"... should be able to..." of course, I hope that is self-evident, that one should be 'able to' make what the market desires... that's simple freedom of choice in a free market... let's hope we don't one day have a Shakuhachi police that will require makers to only market flutes of a certain 'quality'.

The question is larger than that, and boils down to a cultural issue it seems.. Gishin was comparing Japanese sword making to Shakuhachi makers, and offered up that the low end makers of Shakuhachi were a 'laughing stock' in Japan (to paraphrase). I can understand that, having seen what passes for Japanese Samari swords selling for $25+, which is perhaps a disgrace to be called a Samari sword, so the notion of 'cheap' and low quality Shakuhachi is understandably offensive to some with that cultural tradition in mind.

I'll pose these questions to all the professional makers on this forum who have studied/apprenticed under a 'master Shakuhachi maker'.

Did your teacher make low end flutes for sale?

Did your teacher discuss 'tradition' in the sense that each Shakuhachi you make should be of a certain quality?

If a concern for the highest quality Shakuhaci was a core tradition of your teacher then perhaps you are honor bound to uphold this and should reevaluate your lower end production of flutes... if not, crank out cheaper flutes of lower quality with a smile.

Lance wrote:

I'll pose these questions to all the professional makers on this forum who have studied/apprenticed under a 'master Shakuhachi maker'.

Did your teacher make low end flutes for sale?

Did your teacher discuss 'tradition' in the sense that each Shakuhachi you make should be of a certain quality?

From:
Blowing Shakuhachi
by Monty H. Levenson
http://www.shakuhachi.com/KJ-Interview.html

Let me talk about plastic first...[laughter]. I was making shakuhachi for a few years when I was visited by a fellow called "Shakuhachi Steve" Mindell. He was one of the first Americans to emigrate to Japan and become involved in blowing shakuhachi. Steve lived in Kyoto and studied with the late Kikusui Kofu. Kofu was one of the most highly regarded teachers of the traditional music in Japan. When Steve informed his sensei that he was going to visit the shakuhachi maker in America, Kofu sent along with him a gift for me. It was a shakuhachi made out of PVC plastic pipe inscribed with character Mu and Kofu's signature. I was totally overwhelmed with this present, not knowing what to make of it. Then Steve told me about his teacher. Kofu lived in a little room behind a zen temple. Strapped to the ceiling were numerous lengths of PVC pipe. The whole place was littered with the stuff. This man was a national treasure and spent most of his time making flutes out of plastic water pipe for his students to blow.

Ten years later I was given a record album of Kofu's. It contained the first piece of shakuhachi music I had ever heard. Music that stimulated and inspired me to make these instruments. On the back cover of this album was a photograph of the flutes Kofu played. Two of the three pictured were made of plastic. The first shakuhachi music I had ever heard - it turns out - was played on a plastic flute!