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Tube of delight!

#1 2009-04-06 10:12:43

DBrooker
Member
Registered: 2009-04-06
Posts: 5

Stablizing/plasticizing bamboo

I am a long time lurker and just joined the forum - I have made many types of flutes and whistles from many different materials - several years ago I had some bamboo stabilzed to makes some flutes - a process that has been used for many years for stabilzing woods for the gun, knife and similar industries - several of the bamboo pieces cracked during the process but the majority were fine - the process thoroughly saturates the bamboo with plastic resins - this is NOT just a coating process - I've never had access to serious root end bamboo or the patients to learn to make a serious shakuhachi but I thought I would mention this process in case someone might want to give it a try - here's the link to the company http://www.stabilizedwood.com/ that will stabilize your wood for you - I will mention there is a serious odor that will take some time to go away - by having the bamboo stabilized it eliminates any problems of cracking do to humidity changes, heat, etc. - short of running over it with a truck it will never have any cracking problems and can be polishing to a very high shine - I would be happy to answer any questions about my experience in working the stabilzed bamboo if anyone cares to ask them - Dennis Broooker

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#2 2009-04-06 10:38:32

Mujitsu
Administrator/Flutemaker
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-05
Posts: 885
Website

Re: Stablizing/plasticizing bamboo

DBrooker wrote:

I am a long time lurker and just joined the forum - I have made many types of flutes and whistles from many different materials - several years ago I had some bamboo stabilzed to makes some flutes - a process that has been used for many years for stabilzing woods for the gun, knife and similar industries - several of the bamboo pieces cracked during the process but the majority were fine - the process thoroughly saturates the bamboo with plastic resins - this is NOT just a coating process - I've never had access to serious root end bamboo or the patients to learn to make a serious shakuhachi but I thought I would mention this process in case someone might want to give it a try - here's the link to the company http://www.stabilizedwood.com/ that will stabilize your wood for you - I will mention there is a serious odor that will take some time to go away - by having the bamboo stabilized it eliminates any problems of cracking do to humidity changes, heat, etc. - short of running over it with a truck it will never have any cracking problems and can be polishing to a very high shine - I would be happy to answer any questions about my experience in working the stabilzed bamboo if anyone cares to ask them - Dennis Broooker

Dennis,

Many thanks for the link. This is interesting. Would you happen to have any photos of your stabilized bamboo you could post here? The ability to dye the bamboo is exciting as well. Do you have any comments about that? Has anyone else experimented with this process for shakuhachi?

Ken

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#3 2009-04-06 10:51:00

DBrooker
Member
Registered: 2009-04-06
Posts: 5

Re: Stablizing/plasticizing bamboo

Ken - I 'll have to look for some photos but they just look like a normal bamoo flute as I had mine processed using the clear material - I know of no one else that has used this process for shakuhachi - I called the owner this morning and he said he didn't remember my bamboo for flutes but they have processed bamboo pieces for other applications such as flooring, etc. - I know there are serious traditionalists that would consider this process unacceptable but I also know others might be excited to give it a try - I'm not trying to offend anyone or suggest this process be an alternative to traditional methods - Dennis Brooker

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#4 2009-04-06 10:53:42

lowonthetotem
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From: Cape Coral, FL
Registered: 2008-04-05
Posts: 529
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Re: Stablizing/plasticizing bamboo

If you pursue this Ken, I wouldn't use these flutes to stoke any BBQ's. wink


"Turn like a wheel inside a wheel."

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#5 2009-04-06 11:08:14

Mujitsu
Administrator/Flutemaker
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-05
Posts: 885
Website

Re: Stablizing/plasticizing bamboo

Dennis,

If stabilized wood is harder, I would imagine that would translate to more punch. I also read it absorbs water. Do you think that urushi or another coating in the bore would be necessary?


lowonthetotem wrote:

If you pursue this Ken, I wouldn't use these flutes to stoke any BBQ's. wink

I'm thinking acrylic ribeye! yikes

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#6 2009-04-06 11:25:38

DBrooker
Member
Registered: 2009-04-06
Posts: 5

Re: Stablizing/plasticizing bamboo

In my opinion I don't think any type of any other coating or sealant would be needed inside or out - basically what you have is wood/bamboo that is saturated with acrylic resin - it works more like acrylic than it does wood and polishes better than acrylic - you would be able to polish it to the degree of your choice - as far as absorbing water I would think you would have to leave it totally submerged in water for many months before you would be able to notice any absorbtion - When using for it knife handles it is sanded, polished and that's it - A knife handle would take many times the abuse not to mention the exposure and contact to blood and many other elements that a flute would or should come in contact with - remembering my personal skill level trying to play the plastic shakuhachi flutes I made they are more valuable to me as a weapon than a musical instrument - therefore a heavy, stabilzed bamboo shakuhachi IMHO would be of value to me regardless of my level of musical skill - Dennis Brooker

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#7 2009-04-06 18:52:19

waryr
Member
From: Leesburg Florida
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 70

Re: Stablizing/plasticizing bamboo

Nelson Zink on his website discussed stabilization of the bamboo by heating tung oil and "french frying" the bamboo. The following is from his website:

"French Fried

For the adventurous, there's an intriguing wood treatment which bypasses most of the traditional bamboo drying/treatment processes and that's to french-fry the green culm in hot non-catalyzed tung oil. Cut the culm and drill out the nodes. Heat a tube of oil to about 350 F. Introduce the green culm. When all boiling and other activity ceases cut the heat and allow the oil to cool with the culm submerged.

Here's what happens: All moisture is expelled as it's turned into steam and escapes as bubbles. All lignin in the wood is hardened as the oil temperature is above its hardening point. All the surface waxes will be melted and removed. During the cool-down period any air which was greatly expanded at 350 F. contracts and atmospheric pressure drives the oil into the wood. Wipe all excess oil from your culm and submit to the standard 3 month drying period.

The result will be bamboo which has had it's starches and sugars stabilized, all moisture removed and be thoroughly impregnated with hardened linoxyn. The wood will be markedly hardened and strengthened--being waterproof, dent proof, etc. The modulus of elasticity will drop considerably and the material will become even more rigid and 'musical'. The major component of a Stradivarius violin is the treated wood of the top plate. It's acoustical properties are what we recognize as exceptional sound. Once the culm has cured, craft a flute in your usual manner." - Nelson Zink's Shaku Design-Oiling Bamboo. www.navaching.com

I wonder if this would be the same type process?  Has anyone tried anything like this?

Last edited by waryr (2009-04-06 19:02:58)


If you understand, things are just as they are, if you don't understand, things are just as they are.

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#8 2009-04-06 19:01:51

waryr
Member
From: Leesburg Florida
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 70

Re: Stablizing/plasticizing bamboo

Methinks French Fried Shakuhachi WOULD ENTIRELY fit this BBQ!


If you understand, things are just as they are, if you don't understand, things are just as they are.

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#9 2009-04-06 19:13:10

Mujitsu
Administrator/Flutemaker
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-05
Posts: 885
Website

Re: Stablizing/plasticizing bamboo

waryr wrote:

Nelson Zink on his website discussed stabilization of the bamboo by heating tung oil and "french frying" the bamboo.

Hi Dave,

There was a recent thread about "french frying" here. http://www.shakuhachiforum.com/viewtopic.php?id=3517

In it, Toby mentions in reference to french frying, "I suspect that one doesn't really want to reduce the modulus of elasticity or make the bamboo hard, as this might well make it more brittle and susceptible to cracking."

It seems that something like this occurs with plasticizing bamboo as well. I'm wondering what would happen if the bamboo was dropped? That could be an issue. Any thoughts on this Dennis?

I suppose the next step is to just try it and see!

Ken

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#10 2009-04-06 19:55:15

DBrooker
Member
Registered: 2009-04-06
Posts: 5

Re: Stablizing/plasticizing bamboo

Well ar far as making the bamboo harder, and in my opinion tougher, it certainly does - as far as breaking when dropped that would depend on many variables - Again IMHO it is far less likely to break if it is stabilzed than if it was not - Dennis Brooker

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#11 2009-04-08 08:45:49

Toby
Shakuhachi Scientist
From: out somewhere circling the sun
Registered: 2008-03-15
Posts: 405

Re: Stablizing/plasticizing bamboo

You'd end up with a real-life Shakuhachi Yuu--or at least one as much plastic as bamboo. This would not necessarily be a bad thing. French frying bamboo does not do the same thing as plasticizing it, and plasticization can certainly preserve organic tissue, as seen here:

http://www.beachbrowser.com/Archives/eV … xhibit.htm

This wouldn't be the same using tung oil and deep frying ;^}

My guess is that with bamboo plasticization would certainly make it tougher and less brittle--more like acrylic than bamboo. Acoustically (the purists will shudder) it should make no difference at all.

Toby

Toby

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