Mujitsu and Tairaku's Shakuhachi BBQ

Very interesting to read about your experiences radi0gnome.  I know what you mean about trying to set up Skype with no one 'live' to test it with.  I have been using Skype on my netbook because it seems that with the built in mic and webcam it is much less hassle than working off of my big desktop.  I had one skype conversation with a friend back east and it did go quite well though we used headphones to improve the sound.  I'm not sure how that would translate to playing an instrument over skype though.  Lots of ideas to ponder here.

I'd like to add my praise of Chikuzen to begin with, both as a performer and teacher.
He's also a great guy !!

But as for SKYPE, I'm afraid I have to grade it a D-..
I Have been offering SYPE lessons for over 2 years now, but fortunately, most of my "cyber" students (6 foreign countries and 26 states), choose the system that we set up about 7 years ago using a program (free download) called AUDACITY. Before that I just used "cassette" lessons for the previous 20 years or so.

Problems with SKYPE:
1- Sorry, I get feedback. When I do a lesson with a remote student , obviously my sound must be , at least a little LOUDER then the student.
This doesn't work for me without feedback when I'm on SKYPE
2-The AUDACITY system leaves the student with an MP3 that they can do what they like with.

If anyone is interested in how this works, go to this page <http://www.nyogetsu.com/events.html> on my website, scroll to the bottom, and follow instructions.

It has been wonderful to be able to help so many students who have no face-to-face access to an instructor!

anyway. the solution of feadback is...Headphones!!!

A few questions about that Audacity recording of Skype option. If I understand it correctly, you need to unckeck Skype's  'automatically adjust mic and speaker' settings found under 'options', correct?

And then in Audacity, under 'Edit' and 'Preferences' go to 'Audio I/D' and change the 'device' setting under 'recording'?  Is that correct?

Sorry for these technical questions but I am will be experimenting with this set up in anticipation for my first internet skype lesson later this coming week.  Be nice to have the tech stuff fairly sorted out so I can just concentrate on the lesson itself.

thanks in advance for your assistance!
Erin

Thanks Brian!

Thanks for the reply, Michael...
I'll answer some of your points:

" Nyogetsu, have you tried skype out in the last year and a half? They have been upgrading so maybe you'll find a difference now."

You have a point ! It has honestly been a long amount of time since I've tried.
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" I have students in many countries and all across the states too, also 35 on Mars, 88 on Jupiter and 106 on Venus ...."

I think I may have a few Interplanetary students myself !
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" It's evident that you can't play at the same time over skype. "

This is the key phrase. I guess I'm old-school, and really believe that for my style of teaching, the student should be playing at the same time as the teacher (or be able to at a later point in time). THIS IS when I experience the feedback when I have tried SLYPE in the past (That is - when attempting to play at the same time with students. I will teach students without playing at the same time (Yes, that means I will teach students if they prefer to use SKYPE, but I think that the AUDACITY system works better for me and my students.
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"You have to adjust the teaching style to the medium. I've always used an "echo" method where I play the riff(s) and then the student. This has some advantages over the "playing together" style as the student can watch you play and focus on the sound and visual instead of staring down the score."

Again - good point - the visual is a plus, but I gave up that style of "I play- you play- I play", over 40 years ago, when I stopped teaching guitar.
I just love the way that my teacher always played with me, and yet a bit better then I could play!
That is what I've always tried to emulate, and why I've been satisfied with my system (designed by Tim Larkin).

Oh, one more thing- I think my system works best if you are incredibly loquatious (read: if you are a "chatty Kathy") and have a tendency to repeat yourself a lot - which I do!! This gives the student a good chance to get the point of the lesson.

And finally, I do not want to dissuade any one from using SKYPE if it works for them, and certainly not from studying with Michael - of whose teaching and performing abilities , again, I can not praise highly enough!!

chikuzen wrote:

Nyogetsu wrote:

But as for SKYPE, I'm afraid I have to grade it a D-.

Skype=D-?  I give skype an A+.

My post that started this wasn't Skype bashing, it was more of an offer of help to some that might have run up upon similar problems to mine (also with hopes that someone would say that I could connect with them to test my getting it fixed, no offers so I guess I'll cross my fingers and pray this coming Wednesday). But if I were to rate Skype, as software I'd give it an A, it was easy to install and easy to use and worked as well as the underlying technology allows. As far as how well it works with the underlying technology, I think I'd rate it somewhat lower, maybe a B-. I guess it's OK for music lessons when you work around the annoyance that you can't play along with the teacher, but if it was going to be used for anything where much movement is involved, it's got some problems. My singing teacher of long ago was often asking me put some movement into it to help free things up, her lessons wouldn't have translated to Skype well at all unless you ignored the jerky video feed. I sort of question about how easy it is to see small details too, was that rolled Tsu meri mistake mentioned earlier picked up more by listening or watching? Part of the reason I choose to upgrade to the Quickcam Fusion webcam was because it has a somewhat wide angle, aside from the mic problems with the first webcam it didn't get the whole instrument (a ney) into the picture and the teacher had to ask me if I was half-holing a note or not because he couldn't see. Longer shakuhachi would have the same problem with some webcams. Due to video quality, I'm kind of doubting my teacher could see that kind of detail even if my hands were in the video anyway. 

         

chikuzen wrote:

Seriously, I have only two students having troubles: one uses satellite and the other an old computer that has it's own inherent problems.

Was the "old" computer that old? Mine is from early 2004, I guess kind of ancient, but my problems were more because there was junk on there I either never uninstalled or it didn't get uninstalled correctly. The bulk of the problem was most likely that I never uninstalled the previous webcam software before I installed the new webcam. I guess that could be chalked up to stupidity, but USB devices are supposed to be plug-and-play, right?

I suspect that the problem with Skype causing Internet Explorer to hang was because it didn't coexist well with the Viewpoint media player software that was on my computer, if "old" means that a computer has stuff on it from a couple years earlier that causes problems with Skype I'd call that a bug in the Skype software.       

chikuzen wrote:

So, I have to say that I would advise people to not be scared away from skype by your experiences with it. It's interactive, dependable and FREE.

I agree totally there. But the Skype developers are trying to get their software working on many different hardware and software configurations, it's understandable that it's not going to be a piece of cake to get working for everyone. 

I remember seeing the Ma Bell exhibit at the '64 World's Fair when I was a kid. They were boasting of technology where you could make video calls. Now, 40+ years later it's finally here, Yippeeee!

Hi Phil,

Well, considering that you were able to stick it out with me and learn the ENTIRE repertoire (no simple task !) with cassette lessons, and that I always respect your opinion (as well as Michael's and Brian's, of course !) - maybe I should give this SKYPE thing more attention!!

I have always been willing to teach via SKYPE, but I guess I have dissuaded students who ask about it..
I will try to be more open-minded in the future!!

Musgo da Pedra wrote:

...it have a great, a really great way of have improvements that skype doesn't have... since you need to send to your sensei a record from yourself playing the last piece learned, you need to study a lot....record...hear it...say with sincerity "that's not good." Study to get a better, natural, fluid sound...record again...say again that you are still not good, not natural, "I am forcing something on my playing", then you record yourself again and definitively say, "well, that's the best I could do at that moment",  then you send the recording, knowing that your studies and your daily playing life will be good to you...  this kind of practice can be really good, because you HEAR yourself...

Very true, cassette or recorded file lessons psychologically force you to learn a piece very well, since you have to hear yourself back with all your mistakes. It is especially good for sankyoku. I remember recording entire 15-minute pieces five or six times before sending them off -- and that after a week of practice. By the end of that process you know a piece pretty well.

But, as you mention, Skype has its advantages as well, though it may be less rigorous in some ways.

nyokai wrote:

Very true, cassette or recorded file lessons psychologically force you to learn a piece very well, since you have to hear yourself back with all your mistakes. It is especially good for sankyoku. I remember recording entire 15-minute pieces five or six times before sending them off -- and that after a week of practice. By the end of that process you know a piece pretty well.

That would mean cassette or uploaded file lessons would have some advantage over live lessons with a teacher in the same room. Maybe the best learning would take place with live lessons complimented with home recording by the student. I've heard teachers of other instruments recommend home recordings before, but they never mentioned that they wanted to hear them. That might be an important motivational factor.

radiognome wrote:

That would mean cassette or uploaded file lessons would have some advantage over live lessons with a teacher in the same room. Maybe the best learning would take place with live lessons complimented with home recording by the student. I've heard teachers of other instruments recommend home recordings before, but they never mentioned that they wanted to hear them. That might be an important motivational factor.

.

   Live lessons are the best for receiving all that is impressed upon you along with the sound. I also play along with the students when teaching at my studio. Then I have them play alone. Else they have a tendency to "hide behind the teacher" forever and remain dependent upon the teacher.  Playing along with the teacher is akin to playing along with bigger kids in sports when growing up. You develop faster. You match up with the teacher's sound and "go places you can't go by yourself". Then when you go home your "job" is to reproduce those sounds by yourself. In the process you become conscious of how to make the sounds (hopefully).  However, as previously mentioned, since we can't play at the same time (yet) on skype,  the echo system is quite useful. I find that the students focus in tremendously when trying to reproduce a riff. Then they can find out immediately what they need to tweak. So even though the two are far apart, skype allows   for the student/teacher relationship to grow in a healthy way as the teacher can be supportive in manner and speech that let's the student know they're not there to beat up the student!

    From a teaching challenge standpoint, I enjoy the situation where I have maybe only a moment to grasp onto something that is going on with the student, whether concerning the physical aspect of playing or the mental, and by using words catered for that person, advise them somehow in a most effective way. This is what private lessons are about and this can be done both in person and on skype.
   
   As a compliment to skype lessons, when it's possible, students attend the camps I hold for their "live" lessons 2 or 3 times a year. This makes skype more effective.

     As for recording, it has been mentioned that there is software to use for recording a video of your skype lesson.

  Also concerning recording oneself, one can do this (and arguably should do this) whether one is studying on skype or not. So it's not really an issue when it comes to reviewing skype. Most serious students (in my opinion) record themselves. Part of my method for moving on from a piece is having the student record themselves and send it to me. I'm not sure which poisen the student would chose to pick: facing the teacher to play the whole piece or facing a mic. I believe doing both is best. As Phil mentioned, one can re-record several times and that makes you learn the piece better.

   All teachers can take advantage of modern technology to supplement students' learning processes. Gathering materials and creating educational tools is part of teaching in any field. Steering students to materials, i.e. educating them to what there is out there in the way of instructional material: cds, dvds, scores, etc. is a given. I also make books with accompanying cds using a 1.8; or provide mp3s, etc., etc. So, the point being, that if you can't have a "live" lesson, and the availability of materials is somewhat the same, and it's a fact that you can record yourself (even if you use skype) as a motivational technique, the wonderful, effective and different thing about skype technology is that it is INTERACTIVE. In other words, it IS a "live" lesson and much of the inspirational spirit coming from the teacher is felt and a chance to develop a relationship in person with each other, where you are reacting off of each other's energies in real time, is afforded.

   

Phil wrote:

Musgo da Pedra wrote:

Why especially for sankyoku?
Because sankyoku has set rhythms that you have to practice over and over.

.
  There are also instructional tapes that have Sankyoku pieces where the shakuhachi comes out of one speaker and the koto/shamisen out of the other. Greta for practice!

Last edited by chikuzen (2009-05-03 20:28:45)

Radiognome,are you planing to take some Skype lessons soon? from your enthusiam to talk about it, seems like it:-) I will give you half price jazz shakuhachi lessons!

Geni

Last edited by geni (2009-05-03 23:53:10)