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The thread on shakuhachi vs. didgeridu got me thinking about this. As a didjeridu player myself (and oboe, which applies here too) we need to, by necessity, know the technique of 'circular breathing'. Does this technique also occur at all within the shakuhachi world? Are there any examples?
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You can. I've only heard John Neptune do it in a non-traditional video, but I think I saw some posts here where someone said a traditional player used it some. I made a youtube instructional video about it when I was starting playing a couple years ago: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nWcp5teYII
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Considering how much each breath has to do with the technical structure, as well as specific effects and ornamentation of traditional music, I would guess shakuhachi has more to lose than to gain from "circular breathing."
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radi0gnome wrote:
You can. I've only heard John Neptune do it in a non-traditional video...
John enjoys doing it as a parlour trick.
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Akikazu Nakamura does circular breathing in the Somei Satoh composition "kougetsu" on the cd "sun/moon".... It does work in that composition, i feel (but then i like Somei Satoh's work alot).
But, outside of modern pieces, indeed it is antithetical to the whole structure of koten shakuhachi music (although i sometimes wish i could do it in fast extended tegoto sections )
as Chikuzen so eloquently put it, MA trumps it.
Last edited by Glenn Swann (2009-05-04 22:34:54)
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chikuzen wrote:
There is something called "MA" that rules it out.
and MA is...?
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Lodro wrote:
chikuzen wrote:
There is something called "MA" that rules it out.
and MA is...?
silence
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radi0gnome wrote:
Lodro wrote:
chikuzen wrote:
There is something called "MA" that rules it out.
and MA is...?
silence
Ah yes, John Cage invented that little thing didn't he? Takes just over 4 minutes I think
Last edited by Lodro (2009-05-04 23:10:11)
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radi0gnome wrote:
Lodro wrote:
chikuzen wrote:
There is something called "MA" that rules it out.
and MA is...?
silence
Ma is not just silence. It is the 'right' amount of silence in just the 'right' place(s). It carries a certain amount of the weight of the entire piece.
It is as critical to the piece as the audible parts. Just as in the performance of what is audible, some people are better than others
at executing Ma.
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Glenn Swann wrote:
Akikazu Nakamura does circular breathing in the Somei Satoh composition "kougetsu" on the cd "sun/moon".... It does work in that composition, i feel (but then i like Somei Satoh's work alot).
But, outside of modern pieces, indeed it is antithetical to the whole structure of koten shakuhachi music (although i sometimes wish i could do it in fast extended tegoto sections )
as Chikuzen so eloquently put it, MA trumps it.
[That is a wonderful, shimmering album, compositionally and as a performance by the two players (shakuhachi and koto). The first note of "Kougetsu", a high rising tone, beginning from nothing, is 80 seconds long, and perfectly, smoothly excecuted, with nary a hitch. Only three extended pieces on the Sun/Moon playlist. Everyone should listen to that music; it simply defines Ma. The iTunes store has it.]
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edosan wrote:
Ma is not just silence. It is the 'right' amount of silence in just the 'right' place(s). It carries a certain amount of the weight of the entire piece.
It is as critical to the piece as the audible parts.
edosan wrote:
The first note of "Kougetsu", a high rising tone, beginning from nothing
So to allude to an earlier thread on Qi, it seems that this is in alignment with the Chinese concept of 'Wu Chi' the state of 'nothingness from which comes 'somethingness' or form. Again with one of my fascinations - is this concept, as portrayed through this note that is "beginning from nothing", perhaps taken on by the zen shakuhachi tradition in similar ways to the Chinese 'wu chi' concept? Or is it simply aesthetic beauty?
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lodro wrote:
it seems that this is in alignment with the Chinese concept of 'Wu Chi' the state of 'nothingness from which comes 'somethingness' or form
.
A nice simple description of Koku.
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Lodro wrote:
edosan wrote:
Ma is not just silence. It is the 'right' amount of silence in just the 'right' place(s). It carries a certain amount of the weight of the entire piece.
It is as critical to the piece as the audible parts.edosan wrote:
The first note of "Kougetsu", a high rising tone, beginning from nothing
So to allude to an earlier thread on Qi, it seems that this is in alignment with the Chinese concept of 'Wu Chi' the state of 'nothingness from which comes 'somethingness' or form. Again with one of my fascinations - is this concept, as portrayed through this note that is "beginning from nothing", perhaps taken on by the zen shakuhachi tradition in similar ways to the Chinese 'wu chi' concept? Or is it simply aesthetic beauty?
It most certainly comes from wu chi. My teacher once explained that each phrase/breath in honkyoku should be a complete life- born, manifesting/changing, then returning to the no-thing, wuchi.
MA, definition from Jim Breen's site-"n) space; room; time; pause;"
間ーthe kanji, shows the sun 日 (or a day) inside a gate 門. thus an interval, like the space of a day... to define the interval of a "day" you need its opposite, night. (yin for yang) so in shakuhachi ma would be the sound/blowing ma, the no-sound/inhaling ma, and actually the way the 2 interact.a comparison may be like in (east asian) calligraphy or sumi-e-- it's not just the ink, it's not just the space of paper between the lines, but the relationship between the 2 which produce an artful, balanced character or piece.
i agree with edosan's comment about sun/moon portraying ma beautifully- and in terms of circular breathing, it's not used constantly through the pieces, but to produce a hyper-extended ma of sound, which is then balanced by large ma's of silence, so it follows the aesthetic of traditional honkyoku, where the ma of sound is a single natural exhale balanced by the inhale, but takes it to a sort of extreme.
actually all of Somei Satoh's pieces have a gorgeous sense of MA, whether using shakuhachi or cellos or whatever. He is evidently deeply influenced by buddhism and brings that to his art. I was lucky enough to meet him a few years back when he visited Princeton. He had a profound energy to him.
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Several other pro shakuhachi players use circular breathing, such as Ray Brooks and Akikazu Nakamura (previously mentioned, I see). Where and when they use it, I'm not sure. Presumably not when playing honkyoku. It's up to your own personal aesthetic to determine whether it sounds good on shakuhachi to you or not, Ma discussions notwithstanding. Personally, I wish there was a little more Ma in the sankyoku I'm learning...
Here's a thread or two on the topic: http://shakuhachiforum.com/viewtopic.php?pid=10871
http://shakuhachiforum.com/viewtopic.php?id=48
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Glenn wrote:
where the ma of sound is a single natural exhale balanced by the inhale, but takes it to a sort of extreme
.
There are many inhales with circular breathing and "one" exhale. One could call this a "breath based" music but it redefines the idea and reality that MA is based on in several ways. One being "silence" and "space" that not only exists between tones but also which depends on the player for it's existence. And depends on the player having one inhalation per exhalation to create. The other being the "MA" that exists to the human ear at the end of a tone when the note is being played but the human ear can't hear it (but the player can feel it) and also the pause at the end of the inhale before the exhalation.
One could also read some of Rudolph Steiner's works concerning how everything that is manifested in the physical world comes from the "spiritual" or non physical. Not to substantiate one's experiences per se since we all experience this aspect of no-form/form/no form but just that he writes in English and is quite detailed in his explanations. I think it would be a great compliment to the books on KI that you guys have mentioned, and which I still am eager to get.
Last edited by chikuzen (2009-05-05 10:57:34)
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chikuzen wrote:
There are many inhales with circular breathing and "one" exhale.
It depends on how it's used. Silver flute players sometimes use it for difficult passages written for baroque flute. Baroque flute requires less air, but baroque pieces are often played on silver flute requiring either very good breath control or maybe a little cheating with circular breathing. You still get the same pauses and breaks that are written into the music.
OTOH, some contemporary composers like Phillip Glass write exceedingly long passages and expect the player to deal with it whatever way they can. I only know this because there was a great Phillip Glass documentary that aired on PBS a long while ago where Dickie Landry was explaining how he didn't like to circular breath like Jon Gibson did (both long time players of Phillip Glass) because of the change in tone when it's done and would rather figure out how he could take a quick breath as discreetly as possible. In a case like that you could possibly end up with only one exhale for the entire piece.
I personally only use it when I noodle around. I'm not good enough at it to keep it going indefinitely even when noodling, but if I feel I don't want to end a phrase where my breath ends I'll often take a breath while keeping the sound going and extend the phrase by some amount, 5 or 10 seconds maybe. I don't use it with music because the with shakuhachi music I've been playing (from a beginners book) doesn't require it. And with noodling I usually only use it with slower meditative settings.
It's easier to do on shakuhachi than silver flute and that's part of what drew me to shakuhachi. Of course, I had a crude shakuhachi I got at a crafts fair to discover this. With silver flute people can get good at it and throw it in whenever they need to. I can't, I haven't played silver flute for many years but made some attempts at it with Irish flute after I learned the technique on didjeridu. It was fine when it worked but when it didn't it was too much of a stumble, worse than a badly executed quick breath, so I didn't use it much there.
I honestly don't understand the misconception that many have that circular breathing means that you never stop the sound. I'd think it would seem kind of obvious that it would be a good thing to learn for those problematic passages that you just can't seem to get to the end of with one lungful of breath. But as far as shakuhachi goes, since the instrument hasn't changed to require more breath like the transition from baroque to silver flute and you don't have crazy composers that demand that phrases go on forever maybe nobody can comprehend why anyone would even think they might run out of breath before the phrase is complete. It's still not a bad technique to learn, you can learn a lot about isolating different parts of your body, not only the soft palette and tongue stuff that makes it so tricky but also the diaphragmatic stuff, you absolutely have to get the "belly" breathing working in order to do it. Besides that, it's a lot of fun, even outside of getting some laughs like John Neptune did in that video it kind of feels cool.
Edit - I'm pretty sure I didn't write "slugger" instead of player and "baseball" instead of shakuhachi. Have we been hacked again by the shakuhachi gods?
Last edited by radi0gnome (2009-05-05 13:21:01)
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radiognome wrote:
It depends on how it's used. Silver flute SLUGGERS sometimes use it for difficult passages written for baroque flute. Baroque flute requires less air, but baroque pieces are often played on silver flute requiring either very good breath control or maybe a little cheating with circular breathing. You still get the same pauses and breaks that are written into the music.
.
In as much as you were replying to my post, and I wasn't very clear-being a bit in a hurry this morning, I was speaking of circular breathing as I believe the difference(s) in the mechanics involved disrupted the ability to play traditional honkyoku. You're saying that since your taking pauses and stopping the sound where the music calls for it that circular breathing is no different than "one inhalation then one exhalation" type breathing? The mechanics of breathing in honkyoku are tied in with and effect you in many physical, mental and emotional ways. Just because you can play the long riff using circular breathing it is so far away from what's happening in a holistic sense from traditional shakuhachi that if you understood this I don't think you would entertain the idea of using it. Unless your objective isn't learning how to play traditional shakuhachi but rather playing something new and different that has a blend of another tradition. Which is , of course, fine. It just makes it easier to carry on a dialogue if we're talking about the same thing. I urge my students to learn honkyoku shakuhachi first and then deal with the other gimmicks later.
radiognome wrote:
I'd think it would seem kind of obvious that it would be a good thing to learn for those problematic passages that you just can't seem to get to the end of with one lungful of breath
..
I think it's obvious that you would be retarding your developing the ability to see how your breath and playing are progressing based on a "one breath per riff" method of playing. For example: last month I could only make it halfway through the riff but this month I'm making it 2/3rds of the way through. I think you're trying to correct what you deem to be a problem in the playing actiuvity since you can't play the riff in one breath. But actually, it's not a problem that needs fixed QUICKLY.
radiognome wrote:
you can learn a lot about isolating different parts of your body,
.
This would be the good result of learning to do something like circular breathing. More awareness. That's the only reason I can think of right now for learning it (for me). "Difficult" is subjective. My son learned to circular breath when he was 12 and learning didgeridoo. I haven't because I didn't need it to play shakuhachi music. Unless I want to play the modern songs where it's incorporated.
Last edited by chikuzen (2009-05-05 16:56:52)
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chikuzen wrote:
You're saying that since your taking pauses and stopping the sound where the music calls for it that circular breathing is no different than "one inhalation then one exhalation" type breathing?
Not exactly. Just that employing circular breathing doesn't necessarily mean you're going to be blowing consistently during an entire piece. Also, if it goes against a tradition with philosophical and spiritual reasons behind it so strongly as I think you're saying it does, I agree wholeheartedly that it shouldn't be used in that style of music.
chikuzen wrote:
I urge my students to learn honkyoku shakuhachi first and then deal with the other gimmicks later.
Sorry, but here we disagree some. Not specifically with respect to circular breathing, but I really have to wonder how many unique playing styles have been squashed because teachers discouraged a student from experimenting. For example, I'm sure there have been plenty of flute players that could have been great flute/sax doublers but didn't even try because their teachers discouraged it. Sure, maybe the advice not to double helped a handful of tip of the top flute players get to where they are because maybe the teachers were right to some degree. But then how many flute players who advanced enough to be good musicians gave up music after high school or college because outside of high school or college there isn't really that much place for recreational flute playing? If the teachers didn't discourage them maybe the students would have hooked up with a local blues group as adults playing sax mostly and doubling on flute occasionally enjoying the musical experience throughout their adult years. Another single instrument example would be playing dai kan. Maybe some teachers would say, no, walk before you run. But what if the student played around up there in the stratosphere and it accelerated his progress because the high note work helps develop the embouchure. I'm not sure it does, but I think it does, and if it does, wouldn't some guidance suggesting "try it, but don't overdo it" be helpful?
chikuzen wrote:
radi0gnome wrote:
you can learn a lot about isolating different parts of your body,
This would be the good result of learning to do something like circular breathing. More awareness. That's the only reason I can think of right now for learning it (for me).
Isn't that enough reason to not discourage students from experimenting? With guidance from a teacher to experiment only to a point where it doesn't interfere with the "serious" study, I don't see any problem.
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radi0gnome wrote:
Isn't that enough reason to not discourage students from experimenting? With guidance from a teacher to experiment only to a point where it doesn't interfere with the "serious" study, I don't see any problem.
I'm in total agreement here. I do believe that giving the student encouragement to experiment is actually positive to narrowing that contrived and erroneous gap between so-called 'serious music' and 'the rest'. However, I don't mean to say that there should be no distinction between genres, serious, light-hearted etc otherwise the whole music thingy becomes a blur of 'whatever'. I think music is music and there's different types of music, one isn't better than another. If it suits cultural values then it's as relevant as any other. I think the psychology of student empowerment can be easily encouraged or easily destroyed by ones attitude towards subject matter. I believe the greatest thing a teacher can do for a student in the early stages is to let the student know that experimentation is as much a part of the study as anything else. My students seem to thrive on this approach and it doesn't appear to detract from their desire to learn the 'serious stuff'. I actually taught my 1st oboe teacher how to do circular breathing after I buggered around and figured it out for myself. I think that with care from the teacher it's all going to work.
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chikuzen wrote:
radiognome wrote:
Not specifically with respect to circular breathing, but I really have to wonder how many unique playing styles have been squashed because teachers discouraged a student from experimenting.
.
You misunderstand me or maybe I wasn't clear enough since I said "other gimmicks". I thought we were talking about circular breathing here.
We'll have to be OK about disagreeing then. I don't consider circular breathing a gimmick. Maybe not all that useful for traditional playing, and not even a necessity for most non-traditional playing, but certainly not a gimmick like playing a guitar with your teeth or anything (it's still pretty cool to see that done though!). I guess that was my main point in this discussion, it's not just a parlor trick to impress people with how long you can hold a note.
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Radiognome, I see that I am fairly responsible for you misunderstanding me at almost every point. So, I'll try to be clear since once you base your conversation on a misunderstanding, the rest is conjecture that continues to misrepresent me. My bad. So here goes:
1. I try to keep all the energy in my dojo (including the internet one) positive. I see no reason for there to exist negative energy and if it appears I try to turn it into a positive type somehow.
2. As a student-player-then teacher I know that (most) people do experiment and I do encourage this. I still do myself, of course. Being a teacher, I also am the one to provide guidance in the situation since I (better have) the bigger picture in mind based on experience. This means I can also encourage them in a guided way that will help them develop in ways they would like to. That being, they want to learn to play a song so I can push them to experiment in certain ways that will help that. This is what they want me to do. Most students don't realize it but the student reveals to the teacher how to teach the student most effectively. Again, I know they are doddling and looking for this and that. That's also what I EXPECT them to do. And that's why I guide them too. I agree with all Lodro has to say except I'm not going to teach circular breathing. I'll leave that to those who are moved to do so. I should mention that I also have raised a son, now in college, who has experienced some very terrible "teachers' and "coaches" in the public school system. I spent most of those years guiding him through "detox" every night, unfortunately, only to send him back to school the next day. That was "Groundhog Day". I witnessed and experienced people trying to "squash" other people-kids-every day. Belittling them only to feel better about themselves. They didn't deserve to be called a teacher. So, as a teacher, I take my job very seriously and try to be responsible. A real teacher is very respectful of their students, sees more in the student than the student can see in themselves and would never try to diminish their capacity as a human being. A shakuhachi teacher is no less.
edo-san wrote:
But, outside of modern pieces, indeed it is antithetical to the whole structure of koten shakuhachi music
.
3. It's a fact that playing honkyoku does not incorporate any circular breathing techniques. And, yes, it is my opinion that circular breathing has no place in traditional honkyoku.
radiognome wrote:
I guess that was my main point in this discussion, it's not just a parlor trick to impress people with how long you can hold a note.
.
4. I view it as a technique. I said "gimmick" from the perspective of using it in honkyoku. Since I do not believe that it can add anything to honkyoku, I view it very critically. If it adds nothing and it's used then I assume the person using it wants attention to be drawn to it or knows that attention will be drawn to it. I used the word "gimmick" because I knew it would get your attention. Again, no disrespect. If you were my student I would be at least this clear about it and follow with more explanation and examples. Remember, I am only talking about honkyoku. Not Phillip Glass or John Cage. Nor any other music. Just honkyoku. On the other hand, most people who approach me about using circular breathing ("hey man, can you circular breath on that thing"?) don't realize that 1) it's not part of the tradition; 2) haven't studeied honkyoku at all or enough to realize that a technique like circular breathing isn't even going to work in the tradition, little alone change it. Honkyoku has enough going on from one perspective that one has to simplify every song. Honkyoku songs are equally or more enhanced by what you DON'T do, from one perspective.
5. I have several friends who live with aboriginal peoples several months a year and, of course, play didgeridoo. I have the utmost respect for their culture, how they think and what they do, including circular breathing. I know what hard work it is and I have immense respect for people who do what it takes to develop a technique in any music. Including the players of Glass music you mentioned. They are extremely skillful musicians and I'm sure can explain to me what they are doing in their context. However, I have several times been approached by players who can do circular breathing on shakuhachi who thought they would impress people by doing it. Ego driven wrong intentions don't impress me.
So radiognome, I don't think we are as far apart as you think we are. My perspectives are in the context of honkyoku. I too believe experimenting with shakuhachi is important within the context of my perspectives on honkyoku. But I believe the WAY that shakuhachi(honkyoku) takes you places is very different from a context where circular breathing is used.
Last edited by chikuzen (2009-05-05 22:46:48)
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chikuzen wrote:
I also have raised a son, now in college, who has experienced some very terrible "teachers' and "coaches" in the public school system. I spent most of those years guiding him through "detox" every night, unfortunately, only to send him back to school the next day. That was "Groundhog Day". I witnessed and experienced people trying to "squash" other people-kids-every day. Belittling them only to feel better about themselves. They didn't deserve to be called a teacher.
My son and I have also gone through this rubbish that the public school system is all too capable of dealing out, and like you Chikuzen we have spent much time trying to undo the psychological damage. After much time I feel as though he has pretty well re-gained his self confidence and faith in education - he's at uni now, yay for him! Unfortunately we had a double whammy of it as my son is part Aboriginal and the school didn't take that into account, in fact they didn't even know he was Aboriginal although it's written all over the application form! (I'd better not continue, I got banned from a forum for bringing this kind of thing up - don't want similar here). My point here is that yes the student needs to be guided by the teacher and the teacher needs to be ever so sensitive towards that individual students needs. To know when the regime needs to change, to be able to adapt to the learning style of any particular student, to know when to say 'no that's not a good idea' and 'yes that'll work for you', to know how much freedom to recommend for any particular person, to be constantly in touch with the 'changing' needs of any one student etc. As Chikuzen is saying, I think all of us here are actually all together on this stuff, misinterpretations can lead to horror and need to be sorted out. Public schools aren't very good at this stuff either, something to do with 'ego' maybe.
Last edited by Lodro (2009-05-05 23:40:31)
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chikuzen wrote:
I used the word "gimmick" because I knew it would get your attention.
Your choice of words worked.
chikuzen wrote:
So radiognome, I don't think we are as far apart as you think we are. My perspectives are in the context of honkyoku. I too believe experimenting with shakuhachi is important within the context of my perspectives on honkyoku. But I believe the WAY that shakuhachi(honkyoku) takes you places is very different from a context where circular breathing is used.
So then we're in perfect agreement.
Do you teach your students to practice harmonics? That's a technique that I believe has no place in the musical context of honkyoku but from what I see is often recommended by shakuhachi teachers (3 teachers I've encountered so far) as an embouchure development exercise. I've been avoiding them because they are difficult to execute. What I'm getting at here is that maybe circular breathing is a good breathing exercise that's being avoided because it's somewhat difficult, similar to harmonics, and there's not a whole lot of incentive to practice it because it's not used in a musical context. The difference maybe is that not many teachers teach it as an exercise. Of course that could also be because it's viewed as valueless as an exercise, but from my experience it is far from valueless as an exercise.
It's really not all that hard to do, if I was able to learn it (admittedly not at a high level) and your son at 12 years old did too, it should be well within grasp for most people.
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