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#1 2006-04-13 01:42:18

renegade_division
Member
Registered: 2006-04-01
Posts: 5

Lip Deformity

I just want to know if lips get deformed after long Shakuhachi playing. My mom is worried about my lips and she wants me to stop playing it(wierd). Actually here in India, all the Bansuri(North Indian Flute), players have some deformity in their lips(well they do take it to the extreme like playing it for continous 24 hours every year on Janmashtami, http://www.hariprasadchaurasia.com/13.htm).

Here is a photo of great bansuri Maestro Pt Hari Prasad Chaurasia
http://mondomix.com/tdv/images/photo-chaurasia.jpg


Unfortunately(or fortunately), I couldn't find lips closeups of Shakuhachi players.

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#2 2006-04-13 03:10:25

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Lip Deformity

renegade_division wrote:

Unfortunately(or fortunately), I couldn't find lips closeups of Shakuhachi players.

We have everything on this forum. Use the search function if you are looking for something like "Lips".

http://shakuhachiforum.com/viewtopic.php?id=271


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#3 2006-04-13 03:16:47

renegade_division
Member
Registered: 2006-04-01
Posts: 5

Re: Lip Deformity

Actually I already read that thread, but I didn't answer my question.

That thread refers to the effect of shape of lips on playing of Shakuhachi, my question is about effect of playing shakuhachi on lips.

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#4 2006-04-13 10:55:03

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Lip Deformity

renegade_division wrote:

Actually I already read that thread, but I didn't answer my question.

That thread refers to the effect of shape of lips on playing of Shakuhachi, my question is about effect of playing shakuhachi on lips.

I know, I just thought it was amusing that you were looking for photos of lips and Perry had posted some.

Regarding lip deformity, in the course of travelling and going to shakuhachi festivals I've met many shakuhachi players and although a fair percentage are not going to win any beauty contests, they are also not "deformed".

Shakuhachi is such a worthy endeavor that it would be worth lip deformity to play it, but you probably don't have to worry about that.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#5 2008-01-12 19:47:28

Marc
Member
From: Miami,Florida USA
Registered: 2006-06-24
Posts: 67
Website

Re: Lip Deformity

Sounds like lip service to me.


Creative activity could be described as a type of learning process where teacher and pupil are located in the same individual.

                                              --Arthur Koestler

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#6 2008-01-12 20:53:48

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Lip Deformity

Don't give me any lip. smile


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#7 2008-01-12 23:59:31

Marc
Member
From: Miami,Florida USA
Registered: 2006-06-24
Posts: 67
Website

Re: Lip Deformity

Not to worry.


Creative activity could be described as a type of learning process where teacher and pupil are located in the same individual.

                                              --Arthur Koestler

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#8 2008-01-13 04:38:49

Kiku Day
Shakuhachi player, teacher and ethnomusicologist
From: London, UK & Nørre Snede, DK
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 922
Website

Re: Lip Deformity

renegade_division wrote:

I just want to know if lips get deformed after long Shakuhachi playing. My mom is worried about my lips and she wants me to stop playing it(wierd). Actually here in India, all the Bansuri(North Indian Flute), players have some deformity in their lips(well they do take it to the extreme like playing it for continous 24 hours every year on Janmashtami, http://www.hariprasadchaurasia.com/13.htm).

Here is a photo of great bansuri Maestro Pt Hari Prasad Chaurasia
http://mondomix.com/tdv/images/photo-chaurasia.jpg


Unfortunately(or fortunately), I couldn't find lips closeups of Shakuhachi players.

Shakuhachi playing does not deform your lips permanently. One of my favourite shakuhachi quotes is from an American scholar in 1977, who wrote that Japanese women do not play the shakuhachi because it deforms the face and makes them unattractive!!!
But I believe he is in reality saying that players may not look pretty while playing the instrument - and not talking about a permanent deformity.
I have played the shakuhachi for 18 years and I have seen many, who have played much longer. I can assure it does not deform the lips. Playing the shakuhachi doesn't put so much pressure on the lips that they get deformed. I have noticed lately that the line in my face that occurs when playing the shakuhachi has become... perhaps a wrinkle on my face. But hey... it is a natural line in my face, and I may have had it today even if I never played the shakuhachi.

You can tell your mum with certainty, that playing the shakuhachi does not deform your lips! wink


I am a hole in a flute
that the Christ's breath moves through
listen to this music
Hafiz

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#9 2008-01-13 08:37:22

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: Lip Deformity

I don't thing Shakuhachi will deform your lips at all. If your mom is worried about your lips being deformed she should be thankful you are not playing trumpet, trombone, tuba or other western brass instruments. Now there is somelip deforming. When I meet other musicians I can often spot the brass players on sight. Especially trumpet players. Take a peek a Louis Armstrong. Those are trumpet lips. Shakuhachi? No sweat.


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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#10 2008-01-13 09:00:33

Josh
PhD
From: Grand Island, NY/Nara, Japan
Registered: 2005-11-14
Posts: 305
Website

Re: Lip Deformity

I've never seeen any deformed lips either my friend. One thing that you will notice is that some players develop a darker area under their bottom lip. Where a soul patch would be wink  It's where the utaguchi rests and with prolonged pressure it can darken the skin. I wouldn't say it's from having too strong of a grip and jamming the shakuhachi in there though because many pros (Neptune, Yokoyama, Matama etc.) have it also. But this does seem to depend on the person and their skin type I guess, because not everyone develops it.  I've seen 17 year old amateurs with it and 50 year old pros without it.

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#11 2008-01-13 09:06:47

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: Lip Deformity

Jim Thompson wrote:

I don't thing Shakuhachi will deform your lips at all. If your mom is worried about your lips being deformed she should be thankful you are not playing trumpet, trombone, tuba or other western brass instruments. Now there is somelip deforming. When I meet other musicians I can often spot the brass players on sight. Especially trumpet players. Take a peek a Louis Armstrong. Those are trumpet lips. Shakuhachi? No sweat.

I'm wondering about the bonsuri flute player he provided the link to the picture of ( http://mondomix.com/tdv/images/photo-chaurasia.jpg ). I've seen this guy before, I have one of his recordings. I kind of doubt that his lip is deformed from flute playing, it looks more like he has a lot of fatty tissue and this is how his face and lips look when he's playing flute. But if by chance this is a deformity from flute playing, I think it could also happen from playing shakuhachi. Like I said, I doubt it, mostly because I've seen a lot of Western silver flute players who looked kind of funny while playing but looked perfectly normal otherwise. Even in the trumpet world, how come Chris Botti's lips look normal? Are you sure some people just don't have big lips? Hubert Laws, the great American jazz flutist has big lips, but I think it's just his normal facial features. Maybe it helps for flute playing, but I really don't think it's because of playing flute. It's really a kind of interesting topic, I'd hate to see it dismissed as "naw, no way".  However, I don't think it's something that should keep anyone from playing flute, or even trumpet, unless maybe you plan a career as a movie star or model or something. It doesn't seem to be a very severe deformity otherwise.

Last edited by radi0gnome (2008-01-13 09:08:45)


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#12 2008-01-13 09:28:38

nyokai
shihan
From: Portland, ME
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 613
Website

Re: Lip Deformity

Hariprasad Chaurasia's lips are definitely not deformed -- in fact, he just about COULD be a movie star.

As well as being one of the world's greatest living musicians.

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#13 2008-01-13 09:36:37

Kiku Day
Shakuhachi player, teacher and ethnomusicologist
From: London, UK & Nørre Snede, DK
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 922
Website

Re: Lip Deformity

I have a feeling the 'flute player lip deformity' is something said in India to keep girls away from doing music - which in many cultures is not looked upon as a good thing to do.
Also to me Hariprasad Chaurasia just looks like he is a bit choppy... but who isn't. He play like and angel anyway! smile My lips may very well be deformed if I played like him!


I am a hole in a flute
that the Christ's breath moves through
listen to this music
Hafiz

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#14 2008-01-13 10:05:30

nyokai
shihan
From: Portland, ME
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 613
Website

Re: Lip Deformity

http://www.hariprasadchaurasia.com/biography.htm -- I wouldn't mind looking like him at his age!

I used to be a real stud-muffin before I took up shakuhachi. When I finally retire from this so-called profession I figure I'll just botox my lips up again and get back on the scene.

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#15 2008-01-13 12:47:40

Zakarius
Member
From: Taichung, TAIWAN
Registered: 2006-04-12
Posts: 361

Re: Lip Deformity

nyokai wrote:

I used to be a real stud-muffin before I took up shakuhachi. When I finally retire from this so-called profession I figure I'll just botox my lips up again and get back on the scene.

ROTFLMAO big_smile

Zak -- shakuhachi size queen


塵も積もれば山となる -- "Chiri mo tsumoreba yama to naru." -- Piled-up specks of dust become a mountain.

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#16 2008-01-13 17:05:34

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: Lip Deformity

I don't know how to get the quotes up so I'll do it this way.
Jim Thompson wrote: Take a peek at Louie Armstrong. Those are trumpet lips.
radiOgnome wrote:  how come Chris Botti's lips look normal? Are you sure some people just don't have big lips?



When I said take a peek at Louie, I wasn't referring  to his general lip structure but to the center of his upper lip that looks like it has been worked over with a meat tenderizer. Chris Botti has apparently mastered the low pressure method and is not beating up his lips. 

P.S. How can I find out how to extract and print quotes in my post? I can't seem to figure it out. Anybody?

Last edited by Jim Thompson (2008-01-13 17:06:39)


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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#17 2008-01-13 17:12:08

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Lip Deformity

Jim Thompson wrote:

I don't know how to get the quotes up so I'll do it this way.
Jim Thompson wrote: Take a peek at Louie Armstrong. Those are trumpet lips.
radiOgnome wrote:  how come Chris Botti's lips look normal? Are you sure some people just don't have big lips?



When I said take a peek at Louie, I wasn't referring  to his general lip structure but to the center of his upper lip that looks like it has been worked over with a meat tenderizer. Chris Botti has apparently mastered the low pressure method and is not beating up his lips. 

P.S. How can I find out how to extract and print quotes in my post? I can't seem to figure it out. Anybody?

Hi Jim,

Look at the bottom of this post. You will see the word "quote". Click on that. It will open up my post and then you can add your own comments.

Louis used to use a razor blade to slice off the scar tissue from his lips periodically. Guess we don't have it so bad after all with shakuhachi!


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#18 2008-01-15 17:12:39

chikuzen
Dai Shihan/Dokyoku
From: Cleveland Heights,OH 44118
Registered: 2005-10-24
Posts: 402
Website

Re: Lip Deformity

Lip deformity? I knew a shakuhachi player who pulled his lips back very very tight when he played all the time and it appeared that he had a hugh smile plastered clear across his face. I couldn't look at him when he played because I would start laughing. Then, even when he stopped playing and talked he had his lips pulled back tightly. When he died, I saw his dead body and the smile was still platered across his face. I had to laugh.
   But, if you ever saw Yokoyama Katsuya sensei play, he had the shakuhachi on the side of his face, not directly on the front. But his lips were pulled directly over the utaguchi. So, the muscles on the left side of his face were quite different then the right. I'll say no more.


Michael Chikuzen Gould

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#19 2008-01-15 19:37:50

Moran from Planet X
Member
From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
Website

Re: Lip Deformity

Just comparing lip placement of Botti, Louis and Miles. Does it matter when it comes to stress on the lips? Chris Botti's placement is very high and to the left. Louis' looks lower and to the right. Miles' looks low. If you scour through Google images I think you'll see their placement is pretty consistant with these pics -- which I chose for similar angle. Wynton Marsalis' placement is fairly low as well. Louis and Miles both appeared to have a lot of scar tissue on their lips in their later years. Stanley Crouch remarked during the Ken Burns' Jazz film series that trumpet was the "most sacrificial" of instruments played in Jazz.
http://communities.canada.com/shareit/photos/todo/images/86438/original.aspx
Chris Botti

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/1569/r7324531156861837af2.jpg
Louis Armstrong

http://cache.viewimages.com/xc/2696066.jpg?v=1&c=ViewImages&k=2&d=65DF17A14A6B244A0E8A8A961BA8D10DA55A1E4F32AD3138
Miles Davis


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#20 2008-01-15 20:04:52

geni
Performer & Teacher
From: Boston MA
Registered: 2005-12-21
Posts: 830
Website

Re: Lip Deformity

Trumpet is a different beast.
Shakuhachi is a flute (the King of the Flutes). And with Flute you have to play with very relax embouchure. Of course if you play for 24 hours nonstop muscles will feel it & show it.
Ideal is to play most of the "special" technics without changing embouchure. Flexibility is the Key.
If you hurt yourself playing-something is wrong.

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#21 2008-01-15 20:36:42

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: Lip Deformity

Chris Moran wrote:

Just comparing lip placement of Botti, Louis and Miles. Does it matter when it comes to stress on the lips? Chris Botti's placement is very high and to the left. Louis' looks lower and to the right. Miles' looks low. If you scour through Google images I think you'll see their placement is pretty consistant with these pics -- which I chose for similar angle. Wynton Marsalis' placement is fairly low as well. Louis and Miles both appeared to have a lot of scar tissue on their lips in their later years. Stanley Crouch remarked during the Ken Burns' Jazz film series that trumpet was the "most sacrificial" of instruments played in Jazz.
http://communities.canada.com/shareit/p … ginal.aspx
Chris Botti

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/1569 … 837af2.jpg
Louis Armstrong

http://cache.viewimages.com/xc/2696066. … 4F32AD3138
Miles Davis

Chris,
    I think it has more to do with how hard they press the instrument into their faces than the actual position on the lips.


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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#22 2008-01-15 22:43:21

Moran from Planet X
Member
From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
Website

Re: Lip Deformity

Jim Thompson wrote:

Chris,
    I think it has more to do with how hard they press the instrument into their faces than the actual position on the lips.

So, maybe Louis and Miles were more hard-pressed than Botti? smile


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#23 2008-01-16 04:13:02

Daniel Ryudo
Shihan/Kinko Ryu
From: Kochi, Japan
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 355

Re: Lip Deformity

After twenty years of playing I can truthfully say I have no lip deformity. I played trumpet for three years and French horn for four; I guess I wasn't pressing hard enough.

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#24 2008-01-16 14:37:10

chikuzen
Dai Shihan/Dokyoku
From: Cleveland Heights,OH 44118
Registered: 2005-10-24
Posts: 402
Website

Re: Lip Deformity

Geni, I suppose you're talking about western flute when you say "the ideal is to play the special techniques without change in embouchure"? Shakuhachi quite different. You have to have a set of "mouthpieces" built up for specialized sounds, i.e. Mura iki, sasabuki, komibuki, tamane, and flexibility especially when moving the shakuhachi around and directing the air different directions. Not to mention small changes in density of tone or adding breathiness to a core tone on the fly, or doing whatever it takes to change the feeling, etc.etc.

Last edited by chikuzen (2008-01-16 15:03:54)


Michael Chikuzen Gould

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