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#1 2005-10-17 17:57:33

JeffMartindale
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From: Fayetteville, Arkansas
Registered: 2005-10-15
Posts: 40
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7-holed shakuhachi

Here is yet another discussion topic. What are thoughts on the 7-holed shakuhachi. I have never played one and noticed one on a website for sale. Any significant advantages for such a shakuhachi that can't be accomplished on the traditional 5-holed design? Does anyone have experience playing the 7-holed design and what are your thoughts on the instrument?


"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness."
        Mark Twain

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#2 2005-10-17 19:32:53

Tairaku 太楽
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From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
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Re: 7-holed shakuhachi

Teruhisa Fukuda is an amazing shinkyoku player and he uses a 7-hole shakuhachi. He's about the best at what he does. On the other hand John Neptune has unparalleled technique, plays a lot of chromatic music, can read and play Bach in western notation and does it all on a 5 hole. Personally I don't like 7-hole. I think anything that makes the shakuhachi sound more like a regular western flute is a step backwards. The more bamboo I hear in the sound the more I like it. But that's another topic?


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#3 2005-12-13 21:29:49

James
Member
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Registered: 2005-12-03
Posts: 23

Re: 7-holed shakuhachi

One technical advantage of a 7-hole flute is, if properly designed, they can be used to play three full chromatic octaves.

I think it's dai-kan-tsu (F6 on a 1.8) that's the first missing note on a 5-hole. The fingering chart in John Neptune's book does give a fingering which is marked "very meri" but I've never been able to get it close to pitch. You could also get it by opening 1 and covering the root end (with your calf perhaps) but that hardly counts.

James
"seven hole shakuhachi just confuse me"

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#4 2007-09-11 00:56:53

Shakulingus
Member
Registered: 2007-05-22
Posts: 11

Re: 7-holed shakuhachi

I'm interested in maybe making a 7 hole in PVC.  Anybody have measurements for hole placement and hole size to build one of these animals?  All I have seen is a couple of pictures of a 7 hole.  I have made a couple of decent root end bamboo 1.8's, and several different size PVC.  I can't play very well, but I thoroughly enjoy the sweet sound, and mainly blow for meditation and relaxation.  The information available here is great, and if I have overlooked the info for hole placement, I would appreciate any help I could get.  Thanks.

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#5 2007-09-11 14:25:37

Moran from Planet X
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From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
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Re: 7-holed shakuhachi

What is the meaning of the name "Shakulingus"?


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#6 2007-09-11 15:14:27

radi0gnome
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From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
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Re: 7-holed shakuhachi

Chris Moran wrote:

What is the meaning of the name "Shakulingus"?

I don't know, All I can think of is a parallel to Aer Lingus, the Irish Airline. What were you thinking smile


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#7 2007-09-11 20:41:13

caffeind
Member
From: Tokyo
Registered: 2006-04-13
Posts: 148

Re: 7-holed shakuhachi

A misspelling of lingas? One shaku in length  smile

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#8 2007-09-11 22:35:00

Shakulingus
Member
Registered: 2007-05-22
Posts: 11

Re: 7-holed shakuhachi

Don't mean anything in particular.  I am also a vag-aterian.  Get my drift?  Ain't word play fun?  What about hole placement on 7 hole shakuhachi?

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#9 2007-09-20 01:02:40

Shakulingus
Member
Registered: 2007-05-22
Posts: 11

Re: 7-holed shakuhachi

Hey, anybody out there? More specifically, anybody out there with info on 7 hole shakuhachi?

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#10 2007-09-20 07:13:24

Kerry
Member
From: Nashville, TN
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 183

Re: 7-holed shakuhachi

Shakulingus wrote:

All I have seen is a couple of pictures of a 7 hole.

There's your template! At the end of the day, five holes and learning how to meri is the more expressive approach:) -kerry


The temple bell stops, but the sound keeps coming out of the flowers. -Basho

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#11 2007-09-20 08:52:31

nyokai
shihan
From: Portland, ME
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 613
Website

Re: 7-holed shakuhachi

I'm not a big fan of 7 hole shakuhachi. If an instrument is defined in part by the technique required to achieve a pitch, then having 7 holes changes the nature of the instrument pretty extremely. The infinitely varied tone colors resulting from the coordinated use of head, breath, and embouchure make up the soul of shakuhachi music. The difficulty of a 5 hole shakuhachi is not arbitrary or old-fashioned, it's essential.

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#12 2007-09-20 11:28:19

Shakulingus
Member
Registered: 2007-05-22
Posts: 11

Re: 7-holed shakuhachi

Well, thanks Kerry and Nyokai for at least replying.  I thought this forum was for fun and information exchange.  I have access to about 5 acres of bamboo here in Georgia--all free for the digging and taking for us backward-ass country boys here. So, I guess I'll try to get some measurements from the pictures and wing it.  But, what the hey, I guess tradition and "nothingness" is where most everybody is at!  Never mind that those great guys at navaching are about making decent instruments that don't cost a car of house remortgage, and are made from--Gasp--PVC water pipe!  Thanks for all the metaphysical B.S. ;(

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#13 2007-09-20 13:02:51

Mujitsu
Administrator/Flutemaker
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-05
Posts: 885
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Re: 7-holed shakuhachi

Shakulingus wrote:

Well, thanks Kerry and Nyokai for at least replying.  I thought this forum was for fun and information exchange.  (

Shakulingus,

There is really no need to take offense to anything that is offered or not offered here. Sometimes, people who might have the information you are looking for are busy. Also, a great thing about shakuhachi is that there are so many ways to approach it. People are going have many different opinions. That's to be expected and celebrated. It's the nature of shakuhachi. Jeff's post that started this thread asked what are your thoughts on the 7 hole shakuhachi? I wouldn't take the responses personally.

I made some seven hole shakuhachi years ago but I don't remember the exact measurements for those. It will vary depending on the bore size, taper and hole size. Drilling a small hole below the first hole and above the third hole will get your foot in the door. From there, you can fine tune a little on a few flutes to get the right locations. Many ways to do it. That's how I did mine.

Good luck.

Ken

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#14 2007-09-20 13:13:58

Yungflutes
Flutemaker/Performer
From: New York City
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 1061
Website

Re: 7-holed shakuhachi

Shakulingus wrote:

Well, thanks Kerry and Nyokai for at least replying.  I thought this forum was for fun and information exchange.  I have access to about 5 acres of bamboo here in Georgia--all free for the digging and taking for us backward-ass country boys here. So, I guess I'll try to get some measurements from the pictures and wing it.

Hi Shakulingus, Did you do a search on this forum? I actually wanted to reply but there's a lot of work piled up and late on commissions, not to mention quality children time. There are lots of threads I want to jump in on but someone else usually replies with what I would say anyway smile I guess no one did in your case.

Here is a link to a thread a while back:

http://www.shakuhachiforum.com/viewtopic.php?id=220

There are photos of a five-hole shakuhachi I customized into a seven-hole. Tell you what, let's do an exchange. You send me some of that Georgian boo and I'll show you how to make one in any length.

If you are already making a shakuhachi, just position the extra new bottom hole about 3/4 below hole #1 (the standard bottom hole) at an off-set that would allow your pinky to reach it comfortably. It should be drilled with a 3/16" bit and then opened up slowly to pitch. Depending upon the bore profile, you may want to angle the hole so it goes south.
The other new hole should be drill between #3 and #4 (third and fourth hole up form the bottom). Start with a 1/4" bit and off-set it to your middle finger. Then open it up to pitch. If you are using PVC, just makes adjustments on the next flute to suit your hands, lips and ears. These extra notes makes the Japanese Insempo scale easier to play quickly. Many modern players in Japan need to use seven-hole shakuhachi flutes to play modern music with a Japanese feel.
Here is a link to a sound file on a 1.8: Seven-hole shakuhachi Scale  The first scale is the five hole minor pentatonic scale. The second is the seven-hole scale.


But, what the hey, I guess tradition and "nothingness" is where most everybody is at!  Never mind that those great guys at navaching are about making decent instruments that don't cost a car of house remortgage, and are made from--Gasp--PVC water pipe!  Thanks for all the metaphysical B.S. ;(

A lot of people on this forum try to follow the tradition as drinking from the fountain is difficult so we get what we can. But there are also plenty of members here with new ideas of what the shakuhachi can be. Hope you can stick around. New blood is always good. Who knows, homegrown Georgian bamboo shakuhachi can be the next big craze....when this Jinashi boom over smile

Namaste, Perry

Last edited by Yungflutes (2007-09-20 13:59:23)


"A hot dog is not an animal." - Jet Yung

My Blog/Website on the art of shakuhachi...and parenting.
How to make an Urban Shakuhachi (PVC)

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#15 2007-09-20 13:36:36

Seth
Member
From: Scarsdale, NY
Registered: 2005-10-24
Posts: 270

Re: 7-holed shakuhachi

Concerning Georgian Bamboo:

Anyone know why or why not Georgian Bamboo could be utilized for shakuhachi?

Likewise I have spent some time in both El Salvador and India and was always struck that the large bamboo forests there, and obvioulsy elsewhere, might be great opportunities for a shakuhachi maker / entrapranuer.

Or to phrase my question in another way:  does shakuhachi have to be made from Japanese shakuhachi for any reason other than appearance / tradition?

Are there musical drawbacks for using non-Japanese bamboo?

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#16 2007-09-20 14:26:15

Yungflutes
Flutemaker/Performer
From: New York City
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 1061
Website

Re: 7-holed shakuhachi

Seth wrote:

Concerning Georgian Bamboo:

Anyone know why or why not Georgian Bamboo could be utilized for shakuhachi?

Hi Seth, a piece of Georgian bamboo, or any other bamboo, can make a fine musical instrument if it conforms to a good aspect ratio for a flute instrument (length x diameter). If the utaguchi angles are proper with front and inside walls angles and the holes drilled in the right place, it would be a fine playing flute instrument. If the maker  was making the flute according to a traditional shakuhachi music style from a Ryu, much more will have to be considered before it is called  a Japanese shakuhachi. Experienced shakuhachi people judge flutes according to how well a flute executes standard fingering combinations of a particular style and how well it produces a certain tone color.  Nearly all shakuhachi  Ryu in Japan use modern flutes so a standard can be set and adhered to. Many teachers have one or two makers they get all their flutes from so that they can consistently teach and have their students learn stylistic things.

Likewise I have spent some time in both El Salvador and India and was always struck that the large bamboo forests there, and obviously elsewhere, might be great opportunities for a shakuhachi maker / entrepreneur.

If you were to make a shakuhachi from Bansuri cane, it would sound more like a Chinese Xiao because of the thin walls. I used to make shakuhachi from Black bamboo. They sound different. Not bad, but different, brighter. Aside from bore differences, the thinner walls affect the tone holes mostly. But, because the whole flute vibrates differently, I suspect that it adds to the brighter sound.

Or to phrase my question in another way:  does shakuhachi have to be made from Japanese shakuhachi for any reason other than appearance / tradition?

Are there musical drawbacks for using non-Japanese bamboo?

Hmmm....
Perry


"A hot dog is not an animal." - Jet Yung

My Blog/Website on the art of shakuhachi...and parenting.
How to make an Urban Shakuhachi (PVC)

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#17 2007-09-20 16:39:47

Shakulingus
Member
Registered: 2007-05-22
Posts: 11

Re: 7-holed shakuhachi

Sorry, EVERYBODY!!!  I was in a head-on wreck back in June--not my fault--impact speed of around 90MPH, and I have been limping around the house since then with some broken bones in my lower back, and a LOT of time on my hands, and I guess I'm just getting cabin fever and impatient and short with people when I have no right.  I have a Yuu and a couple of good ol' Georgia bamboo, and a couple of PVC I thrashed and butchered together:)  I don't mean to be mean, and regretted what I said earlier just as soon as I hit ENTER.  The insurance companies and hospitals/Doctors must be gettin' to me. Thanks for the fast return on the information.  I guess getting out of whack got a few peoples attention--LOL.  But seriously, Guys, I sincerely appologise.  As a matter of fact, this forum is what got me started with this great instrument in the first place.  I just want to know EVERYTHING about it.  I forgot that some of ya'll have other things to do, and I really do apperciate the responses.

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#18 2007-09-20 16:53:07

Mujitsu
Administrator/Flutemaker
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-05
Posts: 885
Website

Re: 7-holed shakuhachi

Shakulingus wrote:

Sorry, EVERYBODY!!!  I was in a head-on wreck back in June

No worries Shakulingus! Take care of your bones!!

Ken

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#19 2007-09-20 22:49:16

Kerry
Member
From: Nashville, TN
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 183

Re: 7-holed shakuhachi

Hey Shakulingus,
I made a 1.8 7 hole three years ago and all I had was the picture in Carl Abbott's Blowing Zen book with no specific calculations. It was easy after a little experimentation. What was cool at that time, was being able to hear a clear tsu meri and that helped me define playing the tone on my good 5 hole. Anyway, good luck to ya and your recovery! At 90mph, you a lucky dog!! smile -kerry


The temple bell stops, but the sound keeps coming out of the flowers. -Basho

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#20 2007-09-20 23:31:28

Shakulingus
Member
Registered: 2007-05-22
Posts: 11

Re: 7-holed shakuhachi

Hey Guys,

Thanks for the kind words.  They say the Good Lord looks after drunks and fools.  I haven't had a drink in 7 and a half years, but I am still a fool. LOL.  So I know I have been blessed.  I am grateful to be alive and only bent up.  I'm not able to lift much but I can still piddle around a little, and thought I'd try to make some flutes while I'm mending.  I made a bamboo 1.8 for a good friend of mine as a gift of appreciation.  I'm not sure he is not going to kill me for giving it to him.  He was puzzled at first till I showed him that the thing could actually make a sound!  He said he was going to keep it with his "IMPORTANT STUFF".  Man, that made it all worth it.  It's tuned almost spot on using my laptop software, and is made from some of that fine Georgia bamboo I was talking about.  I don't know the variety, but I will try to find out what strain it is.  I'm gonna try Perry's advice about hole placement and see how it goes, gradually bringing it into tune.  I hope I'll be well enough to make it to my field and dig up some more "victims" soon.  I really dig working with the bamboo. There is nothing like the smell.  It is way better therapy than anything else I have had for the past three months with these medical people.

Thanks again Guys and God Bless

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#21 2007-09-21 11:10:19

nyokai
shihan
From: Portland, ME
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 613
Website

Re: 7-holed shakuhachi

Shakulingus wrote:

Thanks for all the metaphysical B.S. ;(

You're quite welcome.

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#22 2007-10-19 02:00:56

Marc
Member
From: Miami,Florida USA
Registered: 2006-06-24
Posts: 67
Website

Re: 7-holed shakuhachi

God bless you, Shakulingus. Heal quickly, brother.


Creative activity could be described as a type of learning process where teacher and pupil are located in the same individual.

                                              --Arthur Koestler

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#23 2009-04-20 12:55:25

axolotl
Member
From: Los Angeles
Registered: 2007-11-16
Posts: 215
Website

Re: 7-holed shakuhachi

I'm resurrecting this thread as I have been having seven-hole shakuhachi cravings lately.  I think it's due to the fact that melodies come to me in my head that prove awkward on a five-hole shakuhachi.  Some of that awkwardness will be smoothed out in time as I practice more, I'm sure, but for example: playing sixteenth notes that alternate from tsu meri to ri meri, or Ro to ri meri, sound great in my head but not so great on my flute.  I think a seven-hole might help me with that.  This is not to replace or supplant the five-holer in any way...

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#24 2009-04-20 13:27:41

Dun Romin
Member
From: Holland
Registered: 2008-04-19
Posts: 136

Re: 7-holed shakuhachi

Hi Axolotl, this was an interesting exchange of idea's you dug up. I recognise your cravings. Had them too, but with more time and study  I a kind of 'forgot' them again, for now the combination of notes you mentiones are not that difficult anymore. Also because after listening to some 7-holes recordings I had the impression it was sounding more sterile and concluded I like the less sterile better. smile So, I decided to go for the 'continuing struggle of meri'


Tomorrow's wind only blows tomorrow. (Koji)

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#25 2009-04-20 16:50:12

axolotl
Member
From: Los Angeles
Registered: 2007-11-16
Posts: 215
Website

Re: 7-holed shakuhachi

Hey Dun, I bet that I'll get there eventually in my quest to make most any interval quick and accurate, but I want to try a seven-hole in the meantime.  In some ways I view it like an electric guitar--some stuff is easier to play for me on that than acoustic, but I like the sound of an acoustic more, in general. 

Teruhisa Fukuda sounds really good, from what I can glean on Amazon.

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