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#26 2009-06-04 12:03:02

chikuzen
Dai Shihan/Dokyoku
From: Cleveland Heights,OH 44118
Registered: 2005-10-24
Posts: 402
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Re: Licenses "R" Bogus!

stupid hippy wrote:

Ain't that the truth. Like you need a license to drive a car of course you need a license to play a shakuhachi, it's a lot more dangerous and will take you further. Like 18 year old kids can get sent to Iraq and kill people but they can't buy a beer! It's injustice man

.
   Nobody said you need a license to play shakuhachi. All 18 yr.olds drink beer. For breakfast.

   Brian and Phil, thanks for the thoughtful contribution. I'll hopefully get back to you later today.


Michael Chikuzen Gould

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#27 2009-06-04 13:36:52

madoherty
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Registered: 2008-03-15
Posts: 366

Re: Licenses "R" Bogus!

Tairaku wrote:

madoherty wrote:

If WE were to decide what it would take in order for a Dai Shihan credential/honor to be bestowed on someone, outside of the Japanese system, what qualities and/or achievements would be important?  Pretend that we are setting a new system up outside of Japan.  What would be important?

And what does "outside the Japanese system" mean? All of us who have licenses can trace them back to Japan within a generation or two of teachers. How could you set up a new system without it somehow being based on the Japanese one? Even using the term "Dai Shihan" sets us up within the Japanese system.

BTW This was meant as a thought experiment to see what ideas came out of it, not a judgment on the state of affairs that are presently existing.

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#28 2009-06-04 15:10:02

chikuzen
Dai Shihan/Dokyoku
From: Cleveland Heights,OH 44118
Registered: 2005-10-24
Posts: 402
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Re: Licenses "R" Bogus!

Thanks Michael for reminding us to "pretend we are setting up a new system" as you suggested in your original email. Pretend sounds a lot more fun than my serious approach. I have discussed this at length with Phil (about 1 minute) and we believe that for a starting point, it would be best if all students drank a lot of beer and gave their money to the teacher. Everything else should take care of itself after that. Except some people, like Tairaku & Mujitsu will want Bombay Sapphire. If that's their demand, the student should haggle for a longer lesson time.


Michael Chikuzen Gould

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#29 2009-06-04 17:08:53

Tairaku 太楽
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From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
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Re: Licenses "R" Bogus!

madoherty wrote:

Tairaku wrote:

madoherty wrote:

If WE were to decide what it would take in order for a Dai Shihan credential/honor to be bestowed on someone, outside of the Japanese system, what qualities and/or achievements would be important?  Pretend that we are setting a new system up outside of Japan.  What would be important?

And what does "outside the Japanese system" mean? All of us who have licenses can trace them back to Japan within a generation or two of teachers. How could you set up a new system without it somehow being based on the Japanese one? Even using the term "Dai Shihan" sets us up within the Japanese system.

BTW This was meant as a thought experiment to see what ideas came out of it, not a judgment on the state of affairs that are presently existing.

I know, that's why I'd like to hear how we do it.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#30 2009-06-04 17:35:13

radi0gnome
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From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
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Re: Licenses "R" Bogus!

Tairaku wrote:

madoherty wrote:

Tairaku wrote:

And what does "outside the Japanese system" mean? All of us who have licenses can trace them back to Japan within a generation or two of teachers. How could you set up a new system without it somehow being based on the Japanese one? Even using the term "Dai Shihan" sets us up within the Japanese system.

BTW This was meant as a thought experiment to see what ideas came out of it, not a judgment on the state of affairs that are presently existing.

I know, that's why I'd like to hear how we do it.

I don't have enough knowledge to give any kind of specific suggestions, but the problem sounds similar to what happens in companies when an employer rates employees for compensation purposes. Basically all they do is every once in a while completely overhaul the rating system. Some consideration might be given to specific problems with the older system, but just changing to any working system other than the one that is in place tends to help. The reason is most of the problem is that individuals learn to game the system, and that's a lot harder to do if the system keeps changing the rules.

Last edited by radi0gnome (2009-06-04 17:36:23)


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#31 2009-06-04 18:44:52

madoherty
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Registered: 2008-03-15
Posts: 366

Re: Licenses "R" Bogus!

Tairaku wrote:

I would suggest that players should be nominated for Shihan or Dai Shihan from within their own ranks but then confirmed by masters of other ryu. The incestuousness of the current situation is what makes it lack credibility.

I've talked about this with various teachers and some of them think it's just a matter of attending the lessons, quality of play is not the determining factor.

I will claim ignorance on this (if proven), but would other ryu's masters be able to judge performance in another ryu that they have not trained in, enough to be able to accurately assess the student?

It sounds as though we all agree (not surprisingly) that performance is a standard that needs to be met.

Are there other elements that are important outside of performance?  Character? Transmission?  Blood-alcohol level?

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#32 2009-06-04 20:05:28

Tairaku 太楽
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From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
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Re: Licenses "R" Bogus!

madoherty wrote:

I will claim ignorance on this (if proven), but would other ryu's masters be able to judge performance in another ryu that they have not trained in, enough to be able to accurately assess the student?

It sounds as though we all agree (not surprisingly) that performance is a standard that needs to be met.

Are there other elements that are important outside of performance?  Character? Transmission?  Blood-alcohol level?

Geez, if a shakuhachi player can't listen to another shakuhachi player and tell if they're any good what does that say about the music, the player and the listener? sad How can we expect the public to listen if we don't understand it ourselves outside of our own little style?

Yeah, I would also say character should be part of it especially when you get to Dai Shihan.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#33 2009-06-04 20:21:07

chikuzen
Dai Shihan/Dokyoku
From: Cleveland Heights,OH 44118
Registered: 2005-10-24
Posts: 402
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Re: Licenses "R" Bogus!

Tairaku wrote:

.Michael what you say about "wanting to teach" is intriguing. You think a Shihan or Dai Shihan is only reserved for those who teach?

Thanks Tairaku-san. You got my blind spot covered again so that's an eye opener for me.  I generally look at it this way because a Shihan is a "teaching certificate". But I realize that it's also used-and maybe more so in the west-as a way to attain a standard of legitimacy for recognition as a "good" shakuhachi player. I also take this viewpoint as I'm a teacher and I am concerned with "transmission", which is what a big part of this is about.


Michael wrote:

Are there other elements that are important outside of performance?  Character? Transmission?  Blood-alcohol level?

I would like to include vegetable gardening so that is guarantees teachers are really "connected" and think about "nurturing".


Michael Chikuzen Gould

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#34 2009-06-05 00:23:57

Tairaku 太楽
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From: Tasmania
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Re: Licenses "R" Bogus!

chikuzen wrote:

Tairaku wrote:

.Michael what you say about "wanting to teach" is intriguing. You think a Shihan or Dai Shihan is only reserved for those who teach?

Thanks Tairaku-san. You got my blind spot covered again so that's an eye opener for me.  I generally look at it this way because a Shihan is a "teaching certificate". But I realize that it's also used-and maybe more so in the west-as a way to attain a standard of legitimacy for recognition as a "good" shakuhachi player. I also take this viewpoint as I'm a teacher and I am concerned with "transmission", which is what a big part of this is about.

.

I actually agree with you, it means you are qualified to pass on the tradition. Some people stop teaching at some point but I don't think they should get a license unless they're qualified to teach, musically and personally. And now that I think about it Neptune was a bad example because although he may not do lessons, he's teaching all the time informally. All you have to do is talk to him, he's very open with his knowledge.

Some people are so narcissistic that they can't really teach even though they can play. I don't know if they should get licenses.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#35 2009-06-05 02:21:33

ssakamoto
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From: Gujo Hachiman, Gifu-ken, Japan
Registered: 2009-02-01
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Re: Licenses "R" Bogus!

I'm very new to the shakuhachi, but I've been a member of another society that takes teaching, or 'sponsorship' very seriously. I really like the idea of 'each one, teach one,' and if I were making a new system, I would have people with one year of practice give some lessons, at no cost, to people who are just starting out. If I were a teacher, I would have all my students teaching at least something about the shakuhachi to everyone with less experience than them in the school. Also, no money beyond the expenses required to run the thing, which would be donated equally by everyone.


"One thing the bamboo tells you from the start is that it's going to take years and years and years. Better get to work." -- Mujitsu

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#36 2009-06-05 03:50:02

Tairaku 太楽
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From: Tasmania
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Re: Licenses "R" Bogus!

ssakamoto wrote:

if I were making a new system, I would have people with one year of practice give some lessons, at no cost, to people who are just starting out. .

Most teachers I know including myself give the first lesson for free. Then if they are interested they keep going under their own financial steam. You can't give lessons for free to most people because they don't appreciate it. There are exceptions.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#37 2009-06-05 17:40:03

ssakamoto
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From: Gujo Hachiman, Gifu-ken, Japan
Registered: 2009-02-01
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Re: Licenses "R" Bogus!

That's an interesting point. I forget that sometimes. When I port my experience with this other group, it's not really a fair comparison because it's something I have a strong need to participate in, whereas the downside of skipping out on shakuhachi is just that I don't get to play it. Also, people have to get paid.

I do like the idea of incorporating teaching into the learning by having students teach each other, but I don't know how practical that is with the shakuhachi.


"One thing the bamboo tells you from the start is that it's going to take years and years and years. Better get to work." -- Mujitsu

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#38 2009-06-05 20:51:56

axolotl
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From: Los Angeles
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Re: Licenses "R" Bogus!

As someone who is about 1.5 years in, my lessons to someone starting out wouldn't be worth much and could be detrimental, as I'm still developing technique.  It's a nice idea and I certainly do learn from other students via observation, but that's different than actually providing tutelage. 

This discussion is really interesting to me personally as I'm learning from a guy with no license who was taught by a guy with no license.  I state that as a matter of fact and not as a judgment on licenses.  If I can make time and opportunity I may go for a license later on.

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#39 2009-06-05 21:05:25

Tairaku 太楽
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From: Tasmania
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Re: Licenses "R" Bogus!

One reason to have a license in the West is that people assume you are not a "real" shakuhachi player based on race. Then when you tell them you have a license they get it. Although they also really need to hear you studied in Japan. So I love lobbing that turd in the punchbowl that I studied in NYC. lol

My thought on teaching without a license is do it if you are the best option in your area. But if there are licensed teachers around refer the students to them. It depends also upon how advanced you or your students are and the quality of the other teachers.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#40 2009-06-05 22:21:14

Musgo da Pedra
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From: South of Brazil
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Posts: 332
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Re: Licenses "R" Bogus!

Tairaku wrote:

My thought on teaching without a license is do it if you are the best option in your area. But if there are licensed teachers around refer the students to them.

That's true... unfourtunely, I don't know any other shakuhachi student in about 1000km around... some people have heard shakuhachi at first time by my flute, and a lot of those asked me to teach them...I think it's just a little help from a friend that I give, as I already received from others... I do not charge (because I am a lover, not  teacher), and sometimes I even make their first flutes...  I have indicated my sensei (via skype lessons) to many people, telling about the benefits of have a good teacher, as you said, its prefered...


Omnia mea mecum porto

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#41 2009-06-06 00:24:56

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
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Re: Licenses "R" Bogus!

madoherty wrote:

Tairaku wrote:

I would suggest that players should be nominated for Shihan or Dai Shihan from within their own ranks but then confirmed by masters of other ryu. The incestuousness of the current situation is what makes it lack credibility.

I've talked about this with various teachers and some of them think it's just a matter of attending the lessons, quality of play is not the determining factor.

I will claim ignorance on this (if proven), but would other ryu's masters be able to judge performance in another ryu that they have not trained in, enough to be able to accurately assess the student?

Hi Brian and Michael
Concerning masters of other school judging whether someone passes as a shihan - I think it's an interesting idea. But I don't think it would work easily. For one, bias could easily enter. Can you imagine degrees of one university being judged by another university? They may have vested interests on how many shihan there are, or other political complications. But aside from that, and I think more significant is the actual honest musical judgement. I am a member of a number of different schools. And they all have very different playing styles. Some pieces are shared between repertoires, and some are not. Even for the pieces which are shared, often one school simply thinks the other school plays it wrongly, or badly. There may be melodic differences or rhythmic differences. And certainly there are different ornaments or different uses of similar ornaments, not to mention tone etc. These are all very school specific, and often the school is very focused on transmitting a particular way. When they are so involved in that, they have to teach their students what is the right way and what is the wrong way. You can't just accept everything, otherwise the sound would be an homogeneous mess. So you have to differentiate, and hone your students into your school's way, which has a set of "do"s and a whole lot of "don't"s. So in that context the right/wrong thing applies well, I believe.

This sets up a system of criteria which we can use to judge the students. Is he succeeding in applying all the skills and techniques of our school? Is he achieving such and such subtlety, has he got such and such timing correct, has he got the expression of the essence of this phrase, and so on. So because the teachers are experts of their school, they can judge the students who are trying themselves to be experts of that same school.

But a master of that school could be judged to be a bad player if judged by the criteria of a different school. Because the aim is different. In fact, if I told each of my teachers who my favourite shakuhachi players were, I am sure all of them would think at least one of them was terrible, even though the players may be very highly regarded within particular circles. And each teacher would likely pick a different choice as to which one was terrible. Similarly, although each teacher accepts some difference in style or expression from the students, it would be unacceptable for me to play in another school's style in my lessons (unless for the sake of demonstration). The styles are too different.

If this is too abstract, just to give a made up example, one teacher might judge Nezasa-ha performance bad or wrong if it were mixed with Taizan-ha technique; another might base his judgement on the quality or authenticity or feeling of the komibuki technique, but allow some pitch discrepancies; another on the dynamic expression of the melody; another on the tone colour, another on power and volume; another on whether one sticks to the original number and positions of breaths; another on whether it is pleasing in a tradition-free musical way, and so on. (In reality more likely a combination of any of these things but you get the picture). The resulting judgments could be highly contradictory.

Being "tested" by teachers of other schools might be similar to having studied geography for several years to then sit a history exam.

So I think there is no standard as to what is "good", even though we all have valid personal tastes. I think it is suitable for the ones setting the criteria, i.e. the teacher or head of the school, to be the judge of accomplishment on those criteria. As to how valid that makes the qualification, I think that depends on the reputation of the teacher/school. And I think that is how it works in reality. Actually anyone can start giving out shihan. Anyone today could make their own school, give it a name, and start issuing teaching licenses. But whether people would actually pay for them may depend on what they feel that is worth, and that depends on reputation - reputation of the school/teacher, and also reputation of the license itself. Some schools for example give away shihan very easily, so that may be known, whereas other schools may be more strict. I think that's natural too. For example, a degree from Oxford University is much more prestigious than one from a small college. It has a different value.

I think that diversity of subjective judgement of quality from the different schools is a healthy thing. If shihan were judged by a cross school panel, I think there may be a chance it would raise the general "musical" standard in a more cross-subjective way, making the acceptable standard more generally musically palatable, but it may also have an homogenizing effect on the music.

Not a perfect example, but, in China the government got itself involved in Tai Chi Chuan. I heard they hold competitions for Tai Chi Chuan form performances (the performance of a long sequence of movements). And I heard they judge it by a set of criteria they invented, with very specific details of exactly where your fingers should be (maybe even measured), what angle your arms should be and so on. In a way I guess it enables a wide number of contestants to compete on consistent standards, but it has a massive standardizing effects, and reduces the performance to something many schools may not want.

As for shakuhachi, I can think of when I myself had to play in front of a panel of teachers from different schools, in Australia in the under 40's world competition. We were judged by a number of criteria, such as pitch, control and so on. Knowing that I would be judged by a panel, I chose music to suit that, and played in a way I thought may pass their test. I knew their criteria would be different from my own preferences. That's not what I like to do, and in that case I did it really just to get me to Australia. But I would not want to play with that attitude often.

Shihan can be a lot to work for, so I think the way it is judged can have a large effect on the student. So I suggest that while a panel might help to breed a more wide acceptability, I think that might come at the cost of diversity and unique school specific character.

Justin
http://senryushakuhachi.com/

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#42 2009-06-06 02:48:32

Horst Xenmeister
Shiham
From: Germany
Registered: 2007-05-26
Posts: 69
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Re: Licenses "R" Bogus!

Thus David Carradine in an box with rope around the schwantz and beginning and einer Bambusflöte in him Anus is found. Needs this a license or judged by other meister? No. Vary imprortanting to not again judge and have the things never.

Last edited by Horst Xenmeister (2009-06-06 03:11:23)


i am horst

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#43 2009-06-10 09:00:15

Tono
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Registered: 2007-09-28
Posts: 43

Re: Licenses "R" Bogus!

the red string of zen, autoerotische bambussong of licentious boxcar, meister fame deadended, play tamuke?

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#44 2009-06-10 11:11:59

Jim Thompson
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From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: Licenses "R" Bogus!

If it's validity you seek look to the practice room. Validity comes from within. The title means no more or less than work you've done and what you've accomplished. In some cases the title is a honorable and precious thing. In some cases it's less than that.


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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#45 2009-06-10 13:05:40

Tono
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Registered: 2007-09-28
Posts: 43

Re: Licenses "R" Bogus!

practical...ko-an...practice...less than sound...no thing

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#46 2009-06-10 19:15:39

geni
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From: Boston MA
Registered: 2005-12-21
Posts: 830
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Re: Licenses "R" Bogus!

wise words Jim!!

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#47 2009-06-11 12:26:44

chikuzen
Dai Shihan/Dokyoku
From: Cleveland Heights,OH 44118
Registered: 2005-10-24
Posts: 402
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Re: Licenses "R" Bogus!

Justin wrote:

Concerning masters of other school judging whether someone passes as a shihan - I think it's an interesting idea. But I don't think it would work easily.

I agree. This leads to standardization. It has to be up to the individual teachers to keep a strict criteria. I cannot judge nor evaluate another school's player since I didn't teach them and watch them develop. I can be responsible for my students as I have been a part of their growth and observed it. There are certain general aspects of playing that one can tell about another player, even if they are from another sect, but I don't want to evaluate the finers points of another sects playing. There are others within the sect who can do that.

  Again, my perspective of the certification is that it's for people who may want to teach at some time. Not as "a feather in your cap" thing. All my students use the same curriculum
but they do have the option of purchasing the certificate or not when they have finished one level. They can move on to the next level of study even if they haven't paid the fee for the certificate. They cannot, however, chose to get a higher certificate without having purchased the lower. This works in favor of those who are also goal oriented but not interested in teaching. Also, some students, especially in Japan, purchase these certificates not because they want to teach but because they want to support the teacher as much as possible. They realize that they do want to keep taking lessons and learning and understand that the teacher is a reference and can help them. You want the teacher to continue to play at a high level since he/she is your reference and you depend on this, so you want to support them. This goes alone with the idea (in Japan) that even if you don't take a lesson one month, you go at the beginning of the month and present your monthly fee, AND apologize for not being able to make it to the lessons that month and give a reason (work, family, etc).


   What is the value of a certificate? I definitely think the certificate is devalued if it is given away too easily. Like Justin mentioned, let's all get degrees from Oxford for free. That means a lot.  As far as a career goes, most people in university ethnomusicolgy programs that would hire you to come in and give a lecture demo know the system of Shihan, etc. And so do museum curators and administrators that hire out for world music performances. To them, it's very helpful to see that you have credentials, since they work in a world  that depends on and utilizes that type of thinking every day. I have run into the problem that Tairaku mentions about some amount of discrimination for not being Japanese or not having your Shihan from Japan, etc. Usually that only lasts until you play for them or give them your cd or send them a link to Utube. It's easier to deal with those things these days.

     

ssakamoto wrote:

I'm very new to the shakuhachi, but I've been a member of another society that takes teaching, or 'sponsorship' very seriously. I really like the idea of 'each one, teach one,' and if I were making a new system, I would have people with one year of practice give some lessons, at no cost, to people who are just starting out.

I have had my upper level students of 5 yrs. or more help out with beginner's at my camps sometimes. It worked out  but there were a couple things here that had to be addressed. First of all, I don't presume that everyone wants to be a teacher so I would have to discuss this with them before putting them in that position. The next thing is that, if the student has only been studying for a yr.,  I would have to supervise the activity, be there to listen and observe. Why? Because there will definitely be questions arise and in order to answer you have to have the big picture in mind. I used the analogy before of beginner's not knowing what's on the second, third and fourth floors. Answers will often need to preclude knowledge of what's "upstairs". I've had students hear or read something that threw them off for a long time. Someone who has only studied one yr. cannot take responsibility for teaching. Another perspective that I've run into is that the beginning student who has also payed for camp like everyone else, and comes expecting to be taught by the teachers, sometimes doesn't want to be taught by another student, no matter how good at playing they are.
   From time to time there will be students who are naturally interested in teaching. They may or may not aspire to teach shakuhachi just as some do not aspire to perform in public. They may however, be interested in the teaching methodology of their teacher naturally. This means that they will focus attention on the teaching aspects of shakuahchi just as much as their learning to play. These people have a natural proclivity for teaching. I did this in a comparative way with the teachers I studied with: Yokoyama, Taniguchi,  Tajima (6 mo.)& Miyaoshi Genzan (6 mo.), and when I get a chance to observe my colleagues at the Summer Camp of the Rockies. It was especially interesting to learn the same song from them at the same time. Since Tajima and Taniguchi learned from Yokoyama, I could see the variations in emphasis, and also their methods or lack of methods for teaching.
   Like Brian mentioned, if (a teacher) is approach by someone concerned about acquiring certificates whose interest is completely self serving and not in the best interest of shakuhachi, then you have to deem it necessary to send them packing. The idea of helping them acquire a Shihan just for making a few dollars from such a person is especially repugnant.

Last edited by chikuzen (2009-06-11 12:37:07)


Michael Chikuzen Gould

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#48 2009-06-11 16:28:10

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
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Re: Licenses "R" Bogus!

chikuzen wrote:

Justin wrote:

Concerning masters of other school judging whether someone passes as a shihan - I think it's an interesting idea. But I don't think it would work easily.

I agree. This leads to standardization. It has to be up to the individual teachers to keep a strict criteria. I cannot judge nor evaluate another school's player since I didn't teach them and watch them develop. I can be responsible for my students as I have been a part of their growth and observed it. There are certain general aspects of playing that one can tell about another player, even if they are from another sect, but I don't want to evaluate the finers points of another sects playing. There are others within the sect who can do that.

You guys are both misunderstanding me.

I did not mean that a teacher or group of teachers from a different ryu would judge whether or not the student has satisfied the requirements of their own ryu. Or judging a Kinko player by Tozan standards, etc. More as a control on the teachers giving out bogus Shihan licenses to people who can't play or who are weenieheads and not dignified representatives of shakuhachi as a professional.

Michael, I believe you may recall a workshop you gave where there was a Jun Shihan who did not know how to hold the shakuhachi. That person is now a Dai Shihan. Controlling stuff like that is what I'm talking about. You don't have to know the finer points of every ryu to see that something is wrong there.

For example I think to get a Dai Shihan you should be teaching, performing at a high level and frequently, probably recording and also doing other work to promote the instrument such as educating the general public and pro bono work for the shakuhachi. But there are plenty of Dai Shihan out there who just took lessons long enough and/or paid enough to get one from somebody. And sometimes that somebody is a highly respected person themselves, which creates a false impression.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#49 2009-06-11 18:23:57

geni
Performer & Teacher
From: Boston MA
Registered: 2005-12-21
Posts: 830
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Re: Licenses "R" Bogus!

where should I mail my check for dai-shihan cool

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#50 2009-06-11 19:01:39

chikuzen
Dai Shihan/Dokyoku
From: Cleveland Heights,OH 44118
Registered: 2005-10-24
Posts: 402
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Re: Licenses "R" Bogus!

Brian, thanks. I see what you mean now. I think that would be cool (beneficial) to have some checks and balances like that. Let me think a bit. It sounds like a case of also looking at what these people with Dai Shihans are not doing to start a list.


Michael Chikuzen Gould

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