Mujitsu and Tairaku's Shakuhachi BBQ

In Tozan they have to sit exams don't they? And I heard for their Dai Shihan they have to have a certain number of students. Like a pyramid scheme! Maybe that's why their school is so big!

Does seem dumb that people with no skills can get Shihan. But if the schools giving out them are so phoney in the first place, I doubt they would ever accept being judged by a panel, since they obviously don't care about standards. Among the shakuhachi world I guess it damages the school's reputation since it will be known shihan from their school doesn't mean anything. And anyway any shakuhachi player of worth could hear how bad the person is. The problem I guess lies outside the shakuhachi world, like Michael said with universities and museums and all that. So I guess what you are proposing is an overall licensing organisation. Not sure exactly how that would work, in combination with individual sect-specific judgement.

The way I think of the licenses is that they certify that you are a lineage holder of a certain tradition. This goes beyond just pleasing music. The tradition cannot (in the Japanese view) be self taught, or simply learned from records. Even if someone is self taught and becomes a pleasing player, they are generally not accepted as a traditional player or holder of the tradition. It must be transmitted orally, from teacher to students. Learning by oneself there are many many points one would miss. Even if you have great ears, the feedback and relationship with the teacher, i.e. the connection to the lineage of masters, is essential.

The license certifies that you have received that transmission. This can be personally reassuring or rewarding, and also can be important for your students, or their students and so on. They can be confident that you didn't merely judge yourself to be a worthy teacher, but were accepted by the lineage as a genuine master of that lineage. And in some cases the license system goes back hundreds of years, for example the Kinko-ryu licenses which were issued to students (before the group became named Kinko-ryu) in the Kanto Fuke-shu temples. I find this similar to religious transmission. Perhaps partly because this originally was part of a religious transmission. But also in terms of different religious sects. For example the different sects of Buddhism, both within countries and also across the world. They have different emphasis, different strictness, and different levels of accomplishment. Within some schools the lineage holders are "awakened", and have to be to become lineage holders. In fact they not only have to have a solid foundation in realisation of the nature of mind, but also have to be accomplished scholars and ritual masters. So they have to have these multiple qualifications before receiving the title and role. However in some other schools, the lineage holders have little or no realisation. Some schools the teachers actually have no realisation of the nature of mind at all. Those schools could be seen to be dead, or like an empty shell. But, they continue. The titles get passed down, and externals continue. If they were accused of being unqualified, they would perhaps deny it, or say it is a subjective judgement or something. The real qualified masters would know exactly what was going on, and even some high students would know too. Unfortunately many people might not know, in particular perhaps the students/followers of the not-genuinely-qualified masters. It's unfortunate. But hopefully the genuine seakers would find their way to the living schools, to the masters who can take them to where they want to go. As for the not-genuinely-qualified masters, it would take great humility for them to come to study with a genuine master. Though, this does happen from time to time.

I'm not sure how relevant that is to this conversation, but I often think of the shakuhachi schools similarly to religious groups, and even the Japanese teacher-student relationship as very much like the guru-disciple relationship (not only for shakuhachi but other arts here too), and the way of transmitting the knowledge.

Justin
http://senryushakuhachi.com/

Last edited by Justin (2009-06-11 22:06:59)

Jeff Cairns wrote:

As for Brian’s idea of having a cross-guild panel of judges to review a player’s general ability, it could be a useful thing outside of Japan where students don’t identify as a group, but I think it would be viewed with a certain sense of disdain here (as per Justin’s observations.)  Aside from that, who would qualify to choose the panel and how much would the panel judges expect to be compensated for their efforts?

Sure I can see that.

So we're basically saying that it's OK that many Shihan are not good players or in some cases may play OK but are bad representatives of shakuhachi? Because that's acceptable in Japan. We're back to that. Whatever goes in Japan is OK.

#2 on your list happens a lot in the West, but it's confusing here as there I suppose because then it is assumed that a license from Sensei X is worthless based on the sounds emitted by some of their licensees. But if this is the norm that's just the way it is.

geni wrote:

where should I mail my check for dai-shihan

You acan post it to me.........

Kel.

Hi Kiku
I don't think there is any need to come to live in Japan, so long as you have a qualified teacher in your home country. For example Chikuzen, Nyokai, Ronnie in the US, maybe others to? In England perhaps Michael can issue shihan? I'm not sure how it works in Chikumeisha but in Yokoyama's school shihan is the highest rank, so once you are a shihan you can I think give other people shihan (though no doubt you would have to discuss that issue personally with the head of the school, Yokoyama). Or, if your were a shihan and student really qualified as a shihan but it had to come from the head of the school, perhaps he would give it, or you might have to just visit so the head teacher could really check. That has happened I think with long term students of Yokoyama's school who have qualified, then come to be finally checked by Yokoyama.

I wonder if it is similar with other schools? I think generally in Kinko-ryu shihan is the highest rank too. And the head of schools can usually issue shihan, though I don't know the details and there is I think connection to the head of the branch your school is under. Jeff, perhaps you can enlighten us on that for Chikuyuusha? Does your teacher issues shihan himself? Or is it issued by Kawase Junsuke, or, have his name on it? How about the Myoan Taizan-ha licences, are they individual by teacher, or connected to the head of Taizan-ha?

Justin
http://senryushakuhachi.com/

Last edited by Justin (2009-06-12 18:30:51)

Hello Poobahs Great and Small,

My favorite license story is one Kohachiro Miyata told me when I was studying with him.  He had told me in no uncertain terms he would not issue a license to any of his students. His attitude was "You study with me and you become a good player-that's it." However he did tell me of one of his former students, a Japanese man, who had emigrated to the U.S. and was proficient enough to be making his living as a session musician in L.A. The name alludes me just now but this student was back visiting with Miyata and bemoaning the fact he was having trouble finding students who would study with him because he was not "Shihan" and complaining that "Americans are license crazy!" Whereupon Miyata simply got out his paper, inks and inkans, created a license and said "There, now you're shihan!"

Larry

Jeff Cairns wrote:

1)    to indicate through what is perceived as an official source that the recipient of the license has successfully completed a set of required tasks as judged by the head of the guild or chapter and who either performs on a fairly regular basis, and/or has recorded commercially (recent), and/or acts to promote the shakuhachi publicly .
2)    as an honorarium for years of participation in a guild.
3)    to perpetuate the lineage

This has been an interesting discussion and I am modifying my position on the idea of licensing. If these are the criterion for getting a license then it's within the interests of perpetuating shakuhachi to give the licenses regardless of quality of play or inconsistency of performance from one graduated student to another.

Of course that doesn't stop us from being able to say, 'Geez that person is holding the shakuhachi upside down and they're a Dai Shihan" or "Wonder how much that weeniehead paid for his Shihan from the exalted Iemoto?"

In the end if you care about the music you'll still listen to them and see what they sound like. And of course if you yourself are a good musician you'll be much more concerned about the sounds you're making than what other people think about your credentials.

madoherty wrote:

If WE were to decide what it would take in order for a Dai Shihan credential/honor to be bestowed on someone, outside of the Japanese system, what qualities and/or achievements would be important?  Pretend that we are setting a new system up outside of Japan.  What would be important?

This is still a very interesting topic. Maybe there should be some sort of recognition system that doesn't refer back to Japan. It could cross ryu boundaries and reflect the shakuhachi diaspora.

In Chikudosha, my branch of Kinko, shihan is also the highest rank.  All licenses are issued by and have the name of the iemoto (Fuji Jido) on them.  In the case of my own license, it was signed by my teacher here in Shikoku, his teacher in Yokohama, and the Yokohama shihan's teacher, who is the head of Chikudosha.  If I ever end up giving a student a license it will need three other signatures on it.  One has to go through three ranks of gaikyoku and three ranks of honkyoku pieces as well as perform in yearly recitals to pass levels.  It has generally taken at least six years for any player in my teacher's group in Shikoku to be eligible for junshihan.  We've never had anybody who has practiced five or six hours every day, however; in that case perhaps he or she would have a chance at obtaining the first license in a shorter period of time.

Last edited by Daniel Ryudo (2009-06-13 22:58:14)

Hi Larry,

No, the head of the school is named Fuji Jido.  He was initially a student of Notomi Haruhiko (Notomi Judo's son), and after Haruhiko died he became a student of Notomi Judo.  After Notomi Judo passed on Fuji Jido had a falling out with the other son (would that have been the Notomi Judo that you talked to?) and he took half of the Domon Kai with him and formed a new branch of Kinko.  We continue to use the same gaikyoku notation, the shiro-fu, as the Domon Kai, though Fuji sensei rewrote all the honkyoku pieces.  So I've never met Notomi Judo II but have met Fuji Jido, joined his Tokyo group twice here in Kochi when our local group performed with them, twice more in Tokyo, playing concerts there and in Yokohama, and he invited several of us country folk to join his Tokyo group on a trip to Shanghai to perform with the Chinese traditional music orchestra there about a decade ago.

Last edited by Daniel Ryudo (2009-06-13 23:22:15)

Daniel Ryudo wrote:

Hi Larry,

No, the head of the school is named Fuji Jido.

Does he make flutes? I think Ronnie has a flute of his that looks beautiful with a hairy rootend and a lot of smoked action.

I think he also made a dramatically curved one which John Neptune reworked and is now in the collection of Tony Clark in Germany.

Daniel Ryudo wrote:

In Chikudosha, my branch of Kinko, shihan is also the highest rank.
[...]

  One has to go through three ranks of gaikyoku and three ranks of honkyoku pieces as well as perform in yearly recitals to pass levels.  It has generally taken at least six years for any player in my teacher's group in Shikoku to be eligible for junshihan.  We've never had anybody who has practiced five or six hours every day, however; in that case perhaps he or she would have a chance at obtaining the first license in a shorter period of time.

Sounds similar to Chikumeisha too. It's a huge repertoire to have to master. I suppose it is up to each teacher on how strictly they judge it, either way it's no small feat to be able to play all the pieces in the repertoire. The higher level sankyoku pieces are very technically demanding, so if the teacher really waits until you can play them all well, you really will end up being a "master".

In Yokoyama's school there is less focus on sankyoku. The students are not put through the entire sankyoku repertoire, but instead we have to study Fukuda Rando pieces. Also another difference is that we can learn honkyoku from the beginning, which is quite appealing to a lot of people. Yokoyama himself has composed a number of pieces which are also in our repertoire.

From a historical perspective, does anyone know the history or details of shihan being issued in non-Kinko koten honkyoku schools?

The giving of shakuhachi names (chikumei) is a tradition with a long history. I don't know how long (anyone know?) Perhaps as old as the history of shakuhachi itself? Indeed it is common in many arts in Japan, to receive an artist's name when sufficiently qualified.

At least as early as the 18th century for example, certain komuso  who were particularly skilled at playing shakuhachi were assigned the role of being the shakuhachi teachers for the temples - some teachers also set up teaching studios in the towns, to teach the lay people (for example in 1768 Kurosawa Kinko I, shakuhachi teacher for Ichigetsu-ji and Reiho-ji (the head temples of the Fuke sect) also had 5 teaching studios in Edo city). These laypeople, if they became particularly skilled at shakuhachi playing, could be awarded shakuhachi names, as a sign of their accomplishment. I'm not sure of any documents which accompanied that, or whether or not they were also licensed to teach (anyone know?), but I would assume that this is the system from which our current shihan system has evolved. I suppose that after the abolishment of the Fuke sect, the role of teaching was gradually no longer held exclusively by komuso, but was passed on to the laity. I might guess that if during that time of transmission, there evolved the combining of the giving of the shakuhachi name, with the license to teach, and now for some schools even, merely the license to teach without any shakuhachi name.

On the other hand, is it possible that some of those lay people actually became shakuhachi teachers themselves during the Edo period? (I know this did occur in Tsugaru, but in particular I am wondering whether there were any lay people teaching shakuhachi in towns where komuso already had teaching studios.) Or were even perhaps given licenses to teach by their komuso teachers? Anyone have any info on this? Also does anyone have any info on what documentation, if any, accompanied the giving of shakuhachi names during the Edo period?

Anyway, I know some people diss the shihan system, and I guess a good reason for that is that some teachers give out shihan to people who are not good players. That obviously devalues the qualification. I can understand it in some way. Some students have been studying for decades, and end up having studied the entire repertoire, every piece, but, perhaps play every piece "badly", from a musical perspective. I can understand a teacher feeling sorry for such a student who may really want their shihan. And I can understand them giving the shihan in such a case. But I would hope they would only do that if that student has no intention of teaching. In that case I guess it wouldn't do much harm, and would make an old man very happy. However, for those students who do want to teach, I hope that their teachers would judge them far more critically, only giving any qualification when it is truly deserved.

I believe that when the shihan system is applied wisely, it has a can be used to secure the tradition, to maintain high standards, make sure that only people who have really learned the music to the teacher's satisfaction are certified to represent that tradition and help pass it on to the next generations. And in Japan people are often very much concerned with and passionate about maintaining tradition, maintaining lineages, streams of knowledge and so on. Some people may complain that that is not creative, perhaps too conservative. I think it can be sometimes. But I think things work best when there are both healthy conservative forces, such as maintenance of tradition, and also fresh creative forces on the other hand, working in good balance.

Giving out shihan to people who enter the public eye, or become teachers, and yet have not mastered the repertoire, I think only has a negative effect on the tradition and detracts from it. I totally agree with you Brian about that. Hopefully the actions of those teachers who do that will not be enough to totally dismiss the whole qualification system, which is quite healthy in many other shakuhachi schools. With all these complaints surfacing, perhaps some teachers out there will see sense in raising their standards!

Justin
http://senryushakuhachi.com/

Last edited by Justin (2009-06-14 03:20:06)

dude

I look forward to the day that Jim Thompson scribbles something on a piece of paper and throws it at me! 

What would happen if, say, in 4 years I show up in Japan knowing all of the required Kinko repertoire and try to find a teacher and proceed to a licensing exam?  It sounds like I'd be operating under a number of disadvantages; invariably I wouldn't be prepared in the right way and would probably face some opposition for appearing out of nowhere.  I have no idea if this is the right path for me; for now, I just want to learn how to play well and see where that leads.