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#1 2009-07-15 00:36:37

Bruce
Member
From: San Diego
Registered: 2006-12-10
Posts: 65
Website

Furuya's score for Ajikan?

Somehow I managed to lose the last page (or pages 3 & 4) of Ajikan, in Furuya's hand (cf: http://shikan.org/FT_Ajikan.pdf).

I'd really appreciate copies of the missing pages.

Thanks


Everything is perfect, it just needs a little improvement.
        - Suzuki Roshi

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#2 2009-07-15 05:58:26

DOKYOKU POLIZEI
WE R WATCHING U!
From: JAPAN/DEUTSCHLAND
Registered: 2006-02-24
Posts: 11

Re: Furuya's score for Ajikan?

INVESTIGATION COMMENCED

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc123/Tairaku/Unknown.jpg


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#3 2009-07-15 08:58:26

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Furuya's score for Ajikan?

DOKYOKU POLIZEI wrote:

INVESTIGATION COMMENCED

Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain...


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#4 2009-07-15 11:19:12

Bruce
Member
From: San Diego
Registered: 2006-12-10
Posts: 65
Website

Re: Furuya's score for Ajikan?

I'm so terrified by the "DOKYOKU POLIZEI" that I withdraw my request.

Thanks to all that responded, and be assured that I will immediately delete all traces of our correspondence.

(does this *really* need a smiley)


Everything is perfect, it just needs a little improvement.
        - Suzuki Roshi

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#5 2009-07-16 14:41:30

Yu-Jin
Member
From: San Diego
Registered: 2005-11-30
Posts: 108

Re: Furuya's score for Ajikan?

If I understand correctly, Ajikan is not a piece from Dokyoku Repertoire. I searched all known to me sources where I can buy scores, and I did not see Ajikan there.
(Where is POLIZEI when you need one LOL smile))))

So my questions are:
1. Where can I find out more about Furuya's scores?
2. Where can I buy them?

Yokoyama Katsuya's set only has 16 scores in it.. not that I already know all of them, but I'd be very interested to look at some pieces I've learned so far in Jin Nyodo's notation.

Thanks
E.

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#6 2009-07-16 16:49:01

Yu-Jin
Member
From: San Diego
Registered: 2005-11-30
Posts: 108

Re: Furuya's score for Ajikan?

Meian student wrote:

No help on the Furuya score, but Ajikan is in Tokuyama's Red coded (advanced) sheet music collection -- numbered R7 on shakuhachi.com. The recording is on Tokuyama's Shumi album.

Since it's in the Jin Nyodo repertoire, I'm sure you could learn this through Bill Shozan Schultz. I'm sure he could teach it from either score. Or both!

-- Chris Moran

Thanks Chris,
I know Bill Schultz can teach both. I am just curious where someone can buy it?

BTW, how much Tokuyama's scores are different from Nyodo's or Furuya's ones (in terms of pieces, not just calligraphy)? I saw Kyorei, it looks quite different from Nyodo's version.

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#7 2009-07-16 18:46:22

nyokai
shihan
From: Portland, ME
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 613
Website

Re: Furuya's score for Ajikan?

Tokuyama has some rarer pieces that are not in the Jin Nyodo repertoire. Of the ones that are, the details are often different, but the overall structure of the pieces is similar and the overall sound is VERY similar. He is a Meian player.

As for Kyorei, his is very close to Jin Nyodo's except that he is one of those players who plays the first half in the high register. This is a very common way of doing it among some schools of Meian players (including some Taizan Ha branches). As for the notation, his Kyorei notation and Jin Nyodo's are very close -- you might have been thrown off because he uses the ha character where Jin Nyodo uses ri and hi.

Last edited by nyokai (2009-07-16 19:14:45)

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#8 2009-07-16 20:35:42

Yu-Jin
Member
From: San Diego
Registered: 2005-11-30
Posts: 108

Re: Furuya's score for Ajikan?

Thanks a lot, Nyokai!

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#9 2009-07-16 23:30:57

caffeind
Member
From: Tokyo
Registered: 2006-04-13
Posts: 148

Re: Furuya's score for Ajikan?

That notation is the Chikuho version of Ajikan.

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#10 2009-07-18 00:27:10

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: Furuya's score for Ajikan?

nyokai wrote:

Tokuyama has some rarer pieces that are not in the Jin Nyodo repertoire. Of the ones that are, the details are often different, but the overall structure of the pieces is similar and the overall sound is VERY similar. He is a Meian player.

As for Kyorei, his is very close to Jin Nyodo's except that he is one of those players who plays the first half in the high register. This is a very common way of doing it among some schools of Meian players (including some Taizan Ha branches). As for the notation, his Kyorei notation and Jin Nyodo's are very close -- you might have been thrown off because he uses the ha character where Jin Nyodo uses ri and hi.

Hi Nyokai
As you probably know, Kyorei comes from the Seien-ryu repertoire of Fudaiji. However it was popularized by Higuchi Taizan who learned it from his Seien-ryu teacher. The versions usually heard today come from Higuchi Taizan's transmission of his arrangement of the piece.

Taizan kept the basic melody of the piece but rearranged it in several ways, by repeating some phrases, removing some sections, changing the ornamentation slightly, and perhaps most significantly by changing the register. In Seien-ryu the first half of the piece is in otsu, and the second half in kan. Taizan changed this putting the first half in kan and the second half in otsu. One explanation I have heard for this is that Taizan had also studied Banshiki Cho (he studied Kinko-ryu with Araki Kodo II (Araki Chikuo)), which is a similar piece but which starts in Kan first, then otsu. I don't know whether that is the real reason.

Jin Nyodo's Kyorei appears to follow Higuchi Taizan's arrangement, with some additional arrangement. It appears that Jin follows the first half (kan section) of Taizan's arrangement, but playing it instead in otsu. Then repeats that section once more (still in otsu) and ends with the first 2 phrases (more or less: tsu, re, u, ... ri) of the second section, omitting the rest of the second section. Thus he stays in otsu for the entire piece. Other than that it is pretty identical, with just a few stylistic changes.

Example:
A section from the beginning of the piece (I will write in Kinko style so everyone can understand. New line represents new breath):
Seien-ryu:

OTSU
tsu re u
u ri ri
u ri ri

becomes
Higuchi Taizan's version:

KAN
tsu
tsu re
u
ri ri
tsu
tsu re u
ri ri
tsu re u
ri ri
ri ri ri

Then
JIN NYODO (differences from Taizan's version highlighted in CAPITAL LETTERS):

OTSU
tsu
tsu re
u (END PITCH DOWN)
U ri ri
tsu
tsu re u (END PITCH DOWN)
U ri ri
tsu re u (END PITCH DOWN)
U ri ri
U ri ri ri


Do you know from whom Jin learned the piece? I wonder if he received it in this arrangement or whether he arranged it himself after learning it from Taizan-ha.

Last edited by Justin (2009-07-18 00:35:27)

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#11 2009-07-18 00:39:47

Bruce
Member
From: San Diego
Registered: 2006-12-10
Posts: 65
Website

Re: Furuya's score for Ajikan?

>That notation is the Chikuho version of Ajikan.

How can a piece notated in Furuya's modified Kinko script be a Chikuho version?  A version of a piece is intimately tide up with the way the notation spells out how the piece should be played.  You can "translate" the note order from one kind of notation to another, but many of the other aspects of the piece that the notation system attempts to convey are more difficult, if not impossible, to translate on the page.

Now, I suppose that one could argue that Furuya's score for Ajikan is so sparse that it could be used to teach the Chikuho version of the piece, but in that regard, so could the Aoki Reibo version: "Ignore this Re here, hit Chi again here, lots of furi in this phrase," or Jin Nyodo's version.

Last edited by Bruce (2009-07-18 00:40:46)


Everything is perfect, it just needs a little improvement.
        - Suzuki Roshi

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#12 2009-07-18 01:13:52

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Furuya's score for Ajikan?

Bruce wrote:

>That notation is the Chikuho version of Ajikan.

How can a piece notated in Furuya's modified Kinko script be a Chikuho version?  A version of a piece is intimately tide up with the way the notation spells out how the piece should be played.  You can "translate" the note order from one kind of notation to another, but many of the other aspects of the piece that the notation system attempts to convey are more difficult, if not impossible, to translate on the page.

Now, I suppose that one could argue that Furuya's score for Ajikan is so sparse that it could be used to teach the Chikuho version of the piece, but in that regard, so could the Aoki Reibo version: "Ignore this Re here, hit Chi again here, lots of furi in this phrase," or Jin Nyodo's version.

Nevertheless, it is indeed the Chikuho version of Ajikan. Riley plays the Chikuho version, and taught me that very version from that very sheet, during which time I did mark it up a bit, but only for my own edification (sic), adding nothing substantial to it. There is no particular reason why a very close approximation can't be rendered from one notation to another, especially as Furuya likely transcribed the piece into his own hand from a recording, and not from the Chikuho notation. There is nothing unique about the way the shakuhachi is played in any version of Ajikan (or any other honkyoku, I reckon) that requires a particular notation to transmit it. I have no idea how this came to pass (a Chikuho honkyoku written out in Furuya's New Kinko), having been too distracted to ask about it at the time.

Last edited by edosan (2009-07-18 01:19:46)


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#13 2009-07-18 03:10:03

DOKYOKU POLIZEI
WE R WATCHING U!
From: JAPAN/DEUTSCHLAND
Registered: 2006-02-24
Posts: 11

Re: Furuya's score for Ajikan?

CONFUSION. WHO IS STEALING WHAT FROM WHOM? WHAT PUNISHMENT IS NECESSARY AND WHO NEEDS TO BE PUNISHED? WILL CONSULT SUPERIORS.


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#14 2009-07-18 03:11:32

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: Furuya's score for Ajikan?

edosan wrote:

Nevertheless, it is indeed the Chikuho version of Ajikan.

That explains then why it is totally different from Miyagawa Nyozan's Ajikan! I had been quietly wondering whether it was a hoax after all the recent discussion of notation copyright! Do you know the history of this piece? A Chikuho composition? (Couldn't find info on it from the komuso.com Chikuho page).

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#15 2009-07-18 06:55:57

nyokai
shihan
From: Portland, ME
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 613
Website

Re: Furuya's score for Ajikan?

Justin wrote:

Do you know from whom Jin learned the piece? I wonder if he received it in this arrangement or whether he arranged it himself after learning it from Taizan-ha.

No, Justin, I have never seen any information about where he learned Kyorei. Maybe Nyogetsu would know? Or Zenyoji? I would imagine that he was aware of the Seian-ryu version (since he calls it a Fudaiji piece) as well as the Taizan-ha arrangements and that his own back-to-basics all-otsu version was his idea.

I have always been fascinated by the melodic and structural similarities between Banshiki-cho (Kinko piece) and Kyorei. I really think they are the same piece, that Kyorei is a slowed-down version broken into more breaths and minus the standard Kinko ornaments. This seems crazy at first since they sound so different at first listen, but once you start really studying it, the correspondences are too close for total coincidence. For that reason the Taizan-ha version with the beginning in kan really appeals to me -- about half the time that's how I perform it.

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#16 2009-07-18 09:36:15

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: Furuya's score for Ajikan?

nyokai wrote:

I have always been fascinated by the melodic and structural similarities between Banshiki-cho (Kinko piece) and Kyorei.

Yes it does seem they share common ancestry. Fudaiji was a branch monastery of the the main Kanto temples where Kinko-ryu was based and I believe they were quite strongly connected. It's a shame that so much of the history was lost from the bombing of Hamamatsu during the war, destroying many documents which could perhaps have told us more about this.

nyokai wrote:

I really think they are the same piece, that Kyorei is a slowed-down version broken into more breaths and minus the standard Kinko ornaments.

It seems there has been some general tendency to slow down the pieces. This piece is a good example - looking at the example I gave above of the older Seien-ryu version compared to the Taizan (and Nyodo) version you can see the increase in breaths. I like slow honkyoku, but it's interesting to think how the rhythm of many of the pieces may have been quite different in the Edo period.

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#17 2009-07-18 22:46:22

Moran from Planet X
Member
From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
Website

Re: Furuya's score for Ajikan?

DOKYOKU POLIZEI wrote:

CONFUSION. WHO IS STEALING WHAT FROM WHOM? WHAT PUNISHMENT IS NECESSARY AND WHO NEEDS TO BE PUNISHED? WILL CONSULT SUPERIORS.

edosan wrote:

Nevertheless, it is indeed the Chikuho version of Ajikan. Riley plays the Chikuho version, and taught me that very version from that very sheet ...

I think Dr. Lee needs to be questioned.


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#18 2009-07-19 05:28:56

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Furuya's score for Ajikan?

Chris Moran wrote:

I think Dr. Lee needs to be questioned.

Here's his email:

     riley[at]rileylee[dot]net

Question away. I think he may even be back in Oz by now. If you want another hint: Listen to Ajikan on Riley's CD 'Breath-Sight' while peering at the Furuya Ajikan in question [put those handcuffs away...we'll discuss that later...], and you will see that it is the very same rendition as on the printed page. Finally, it ain't like any Ajikan you know of, on account of it's Chikuho.

But, you know, go ahead. Ask him.


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#19 2009-07-19 06:49:46

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Furuya's score for Ajikan?

I wonder why Furuya transcribed the notation from Chikuho to Kinko, and where he learnt it from.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#20 2009-07-19 12:18:13

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Furuya's score for Ajikan?

Tairaku wrote:

I wonder why Furuya transcribed the notation from Chikuho to Kinko, and where he learnt it from.

It's enigmatic (something I overheard a tour guide say to a visitor at Stonehenge in 1988...).


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#21 2009-07-19 23:13:00

Moran from Planet X
Member
From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
Website

Re: Furuya's score for Ajikan?

edosan wrote:

[put those handcuffs away...we'll discuss that later...]

But ... the handcuffs are the fun part.


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#22 2009-07-19 23:29:12

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: Furuya's score for Ajikan?

Chris,
    Did I miss something? Last time I looked you were the Grand Knobness or something and now here you are an inmate. Wha'  hoppen?


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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#23 2009-07-20 03:35:02

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Furuya's score for Ajikan?

Jim Thompson wrote:

Chris,
    Did I miss something? Last time I looked you were the Grand Knobness or something and now here you are an inmate. Wha'  hoppen?

Rumor has it he's been "rendered" by the DOKYOKU POLIZEI (not for any particular offense, but as a 'sympathizer') and is now in an "undisclosed location" somewhere in Japan or Germany. If we don't hear from him soon www.shakuhachiforum.com legal aid will call Amnesty International and Knobiers Sans Frontieres and see what we can do to spring him. In any conflict the journalists are among the most vulnerable.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#24 2009-07-20 08:24:00

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: Furuya's score for Ajikan?

Tairaku wrote:

Rumor has it he's been "rendered" by the DOKYOKU POLIZEI (not for any particular offense, but as a 'sympathizer') and is now in an "undisclosed location" somewhere in Japan or Germany. If we don't hear from him soon www.shakuhachiforum.com legal aid will call Amnesty International and Knobiers Sans Frontieres and see what we can do to spring him. In any conflict the journalists are among the most vulnerable.

I'm really sorry to hear that. I have fond memories of Chris as a happy go lucky kid when we were both working as towel boys in a Bangkok brothel in the early seventies. As far as his more recent political activities go, I swear to you, I know nothing.


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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#25 2009-07-20 16:45:16

Moran from Planet X
Member
From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
Website

Re: Furuya's score for Ajikan?

Jim Thompson wrote:

I have fond memories of Chris as a happy go lucky kid when we were both working as towel boys in a Bangkok brothel in the early seventies.

<whispering> Jim, remember, at the Blue Patpong, 1972, the Yakuza with the upside "Good Luck" kanji tattooed on his right ankle? The guy with the yellow platform boots with the Japanese-Fro?

... It ... was ... was ... h ... ....


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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