Mujitsu and Tairaku's Shakuhachi BBQ

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Tube of delight!

#26 2009-10-31 12:35:22

purehappiness
Member
From: Connecticut USA
Registered: 2009-01-13
Posts: 528

Re: Stop and make some tea

I got it! I am pretty sure it is tsu re to begin with. By the way the song is actually wings of the eagle and can be found here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n5mt_WT4CE


I was not conscious whether I was riding on the wind or the wind was riding on me.

Lieh-tzu

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#27 2009-10-31 13:04:51

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Stop and make some tea

Tairaku wrote:

edosan wrote:

, and he's playing a 2.1 flute. If you can up the pitch of the recording 3 semitones,

I am too lazy to use the search function, can you post a link to this?

Can't post a link to my CD, but I can send you a file if you like smile  [shhhhh....you know who might be watching...]


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#28 2009-10-31 13:14:02

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Stop and make some tea

purehappiness wrote:

I got it! I am pretty sure it is tsu re to begin with. By the way the song is actually wings of the eagle and can be found here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n5mt_WT4CE

Actually, the first three notes are tsu-ri-I  ('eeeee': open hole 5 after ri. Same pitch as ro-kan. He may be playing ro-kan, but it's probably I, because it's more hollow sounding and gives a better muraiki).

You really need to match the pitch accurately to do this sort of thing without going crazy. Trying to do it on a 2.0 is going to make things more difficult.


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#29 2009-10-31 15:33:17

purehappiness
Member
From: Connecticut USA
Registered: 2009-01-13
Posts: 528

Re: Stop and make some tea

Thanks.I do have a 1.8 yuu I am using too.

Last edited by purehappiness (2009-10-31 15:39:18)


I was not conscious whether I was riding on the wind or the wind was riding on me.

Lieh-tzu

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#30 2009-10-31 23:34:35

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
Website

Re: Stop and make some tea

It sounds like an improvisation.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#31 2009-11-01 02:01:59

ssakamoto
Member
From: Gujo Hachiman, Gifu-ken, Japan
Registered: 2009-02-01
Posts: 43
Website

Re: Stop and make some tea

I don't know anything about zen, but I have noticed that if I skip practice for a few days, the first 20 minutes when I come back is the best I've played in a long, long time. Then, just like you described, I play very poorly for at least a couple of days until I get my stride back.

I think my muscles have memory of what I was doing, and they blast it out for a bit and then get weak and tired.

I've noticed the same thing with other exercises like swimming. If I swim regularly, I have good days and bad days. If I take a week off and then swim, I rock that first 30 minutes. Then it gets as hard as it ever was.

I enjoy playing the shakuhachi, but I have just as many days when I don't enjoy it but I do it anyway. I liked Tairaku's comment on vibrato a while back..."What's that sound?"

"It's my passion."

"Lose the passion!"

That really cracked me up. A lack of passion in my life is definitely not my problem. A lack of sitting still and doing something that's really hard over and over is something I need to work on. It has its own rewards. In fact, I think I'll go do it now, since I've been surfing the web way too long today.


"One thing the bamboo tells you from the start is that it's going to take years and years and years. Better get to work." -- Mujitsu

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#32 2009-11-23 08:16:36

FtCollins
Member
Registered: 2009-10-24
Posts: 6

Re: Stop and make some tea

Thanks for all the wonderful insights guys.  This is a great forum. 

So I've been at it for a couple weeks and I had a breakthrough practice last night.  I'm working nights now so I was trying to practice quietly in the basement.  And in blowing softer, the upper register just leaked out of the flute.  I was hitting "hi" and the third octave "ro"  (what is it called?)  with no problem.

So try this guys, if you're having trouble like me with the high notes.  Try to play as if you're trying to wake up the household.  It works. 

It made me think back to what my old teacher used to say (Glenn Swann)  that the upper register takes less of a blowing effort.  Totally true.  I love those moments in your practice where doors just come open all of the sudden from all your hard work. 

Oh and good to hear from you too Glenn!  Coming out to Colorado anytime soon??  I'm PM you with my contact info.  you're more than welcome to stay with me for a few days.

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#33 2009-11-23 12:33:07

Todd Frederick
Member
From: Dos Palos CA USA
Registered: 2009-08-29
Posts: 70

Re: Stop and make some tea

FtCollins...you said this in a previous posting:

"A teacher back in NJ told me that the sounds of the shakuhachi should be imperfect, like the white in a  brush stroke. "

I like that analogy very much. Seeking perfection is futile.

I just recently found my embouchure and I'm not losing it.  However, when I tense up and grip the flute like a vise, I can't play anything. I need to leave it (tea break, garden work, read some poetry, and such), and then return to playing.

I also discovered that the harder I blow the less sound I produce. When I blow softly, it's strong.

I realize that many who are advanced in Shakuhachi perform to an audience and sell CDs and such. I wonder if this kind of flute is suitable for performance, unless the audience understands that it's tempermental nature and the ease with which "mistakes" can be made even by the most proficient players.

Its flaws and variables are, for me, a significant part of the Shakuhachi's charm.

Just some thoughts for this morning's wake-up call. Blessings  :>)

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#34 2009-11-23 14:02:31

purehappiness
Member
From: Connecticut USA
Registered: 2009-01-13
Posts: 528

Re: Stop and make some tea

The shakuhachi is definitely a humbling instrument. Or, should I say an EGO releasing instrument.
smile


I was not conscious whether I was riding on the wind or the wind was riding on me.

Lieh-tzu

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#35 2009-11-28 20:14:16

Todd Frederick
Member
From: Dos Palos CA USA
Registered: 2009-08-29
Posts: 70

Re: Stop and make some tea

I received two new flutes on Wednesday from www.sinkuleflutes.com, James Sinkule. The one I ordered is in the key of C with a nice upward curve to the flute, and I was able to make good notes on the first blow. Yes! A very fine flute. He included a "freebee" flute in a very deep register that makes very haunting sounds since he knew I liked the lower tones.

I have discovered in my newness to Shakuhachi is that we really don't play songs (like "Mary Had A Little Lamb"...lol), or even recognizable melodies with these instruments. We play tonal patterns, create indescribable  sounds variations, use the tones for meditation, or what I lake to call "spirit music" (with the Native American Flutes).

I practice the Shakuhachi daily, mainly to train my wickedly uncontrolable mouth, control my breath, relax my muscles, breathe softly, and relax everything.

Then I take up my Native American flutes and play them for their uplifting spirit to get out and face the world.

Just thought I'd share this as I progress.

Blessings to all.

Last edited by Todd Frederick (2009-11-28 20:17:33)

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#36 2009-11-28 20:54:36

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Stop and make some tea

Todd Frederick wrote:

I have discovered in my newness to Shakuhachi is that we really don't play songs (like "Mary Had A Little Lamb"...lol), or even recognizable melodies with these instruments. We play tonal patterns, create indescribable  sounds variations, use the tones for meditation, or what I lake to call "spirit music" (with the Native American Flutes).

All well and good, but you are not really going to get around very well on the shakuhachi until you CAN play 'Mary Had A Little Lamb, or similar.
That is to say, you must be able to control pitch well enough to render accurately melodies that you are familiar with.

Assuming that's what you ultimately wish to do, of course....


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#37 2009-11-28 21:35:51

Todd Frederick
Member
From: Dos Palos CA USA
Registered: 2009-08-29
Posts: 70

Re: Stop and make some tea

edosan,

Let me tell you a little secret...I "studied" classical guitar for a few years. As a last resort, my teacher suggested that I learn cords and play country western or folk and not worry too much about what I was strumming !!!

I have absolutely no natural affinity to music whatsoever.

However, I can play improvisional melodies on the Native flute and will also be able to do the same on the shakuhachi eventually.

That is a musical triumph for me !!!

Now then...how do I play Mary Had A Little Lamb on the Shakuhachi? In my opinion, that is not even the purpose of the shakuhachi. I guess it could be done but I don't want to do it with that instrument.

However.....I would like to learn to play Amazing Grace on both the Shakuhachi and the Native American flute, but I don't know how to do it. I guess I'm contradicting myself....not to Mary Had A Little Lamb, but Yes to Amazing Grace. Oh well, I'm never totally consistent.

The lack of musical help to play popular melodies is very lacking for these instrument...and understandably so.

As I mentioned, I'm a musical dummy, but I do enjoy making melodies on these wonderful flutes.

I guess that's good for something...and I'm willing to lean at my age.

Last edited by Todd Frederick (2009-11-28 21:38:12)

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#38 2009-11-28 22:20:07

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Stop and make some tea

Todd Frederick wrote:

The lack of musical help to play popular melodies is very lacking for these instrument...and understandably so.

Au contraire. Those are called 'lessons'.  smile

Last edited by edosan (2009-11-28 22:42:38)


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#39 2009-11-28 23:16:51

mrwuwu
Member
From: Chicago, Illinois
Registered: 2007-11-23
Posts: 160

Re: Stop and make some tea

Todd,  if you had purchased your flute from Perry Yung, the famous flutemaker, he will have included a free starter lesson book with the sheet music and notes for Mary Had A Little Lamb and Amazing Grace!    The Mary song is the one most new students start with so that the notes they first learn to play can be in tune with a song almost anyone in every country is familiar with, even Japan.      If you cannot locate the sheet music in shakuhachi notation for Amazing Grace, Perry sells the book separately on his website and Ebay site.


" You know, it's been three years now, maybe a new teacher can help you? ...... " Sensei

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#40 2009-11-29 09:35:48

nyokai
shihan
From: Portland, ME
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 613
Website

Re: Stop and make some tea

Todd Frederick wrote:

FtCollins...you said this in a previous posting:

"A teacher back in NJ told me that the sounds of the shakuhachi should be imperfect, like the white in a  brush stroke. "

I like that analogy very much. Seeking perfection is futile.

Teachers say things IN CONTEXT to students. If a student is veering a little too much in one direction, for instance getting too uptight about some detail, the teacher will remind the student of the overall aesthetic, which encompasses great freedom. If a student is getting lax, a teacher might remind him or her of the learning process, which is based on a disciplined attention to detail. Often quotes from teachers are taken out of context and used as an excuse for lack of discipline. Zen Roshis are remembered for pithy sayings that can be misinterpreted to make you feel OK about having a very vague relationship to Buddhist practice; forgotten, or unpublished, are the thousands of admonitions to their students to work harder, to sit up straighter. In the work of great calligraphers, I think, the brush stroke is PERFECTLY imperfect. There is a huge difference between the wild hard-won freedom of a master and the assertion of individualism that often passes for artistic freedom in our culture.

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#41 2009-11-29 11:09:28

mrwuwu
Member
From: Chicago, Illinois
Registered: 2007-11-23
Posts: 160

Re: Stop and make some tea

Amen!!!!    Well spoken,  Thanks for the inspirational post, Nyokai.


" You know, it's been three years now, maybe a new teacher can help you? ...... " Sensei

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#42 2009-11-29 11:12:37

Todd Frederick
Member
From: Dos Palos CA USA
Registered: 2009-08-29
Posts: 70

Re: Stop and make some tea

mrwuwu...I fear the Perry Yung's flutes are a bit out of my price range right now. I'll check his website. thanks for the tip, and I stand corrected on the importance of Mary Had A Little Lamb...lol

Nyokai...I like the phrase "PERFECTLY imperfect."  I understand.

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#43 2009-11-29 11:26:07

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: Stop and make some tea

Well said Nyokai! I find it interesting to note the various versions of making a virtue out of avoiding tasks. (That's not to say I don't do it too). My favorite is "trying to play well is an ego trip". How convenient! The ones who are of that opinion have certainly saved themselves a lot of work. For the record, Todd, pursuing perfection may be futile in terms of becoming perfect but it's a great target to use to improve yourself.


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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#44 2009-11-29 12:50:27

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: Stop and make some tea

Todd Frederick wrote:

mrwuwu...I fear the Perry Yung's flutes are a bit out of my price range right now. I'll check his website. thanks for the tip, and I stand corrected on the importance of Mary Had A Little Lamb...lol

Nyokai...I like the phrase "PERFECTLY imperfect."  I understand.

Since it sounds like you're following the same path that I did so far, I'm going to add my two cents. First, it sounds like you have enough super-low-end shakuhachi that are basically simple bamboo with holes cut in them whether they're from Perry or not. It might be fun for you to buy more of those in the future, but they're all going to play basically the same. What would probably serve you better is to get a decent 1.8 Jiari so you see what those animals are all about. If you can't find one from Perry on Ebay that fits your budget, contact him, he'll probably be able to find something for you that will fit your budget. That's what I did. Or, you could get a plastic Yuu for about $100 that everybody who's tried them say that they play like a decent Jiari.

Todd Frederick wrote:

I have discovered in my newness to Shakuhachi is that we really don't play songs (like "Mary Had A Little Lamb"...lol), or even recognizable melodies with these instruments. We play tonal patterns, create indescribable  sounds variations, use the tones for meditation, or what I lake to call "spirit music" (with the Native American Flutes).

I have some comments about this that I'll save for later when I have access to some mp3's that I can post that are on a different computer. But for now, for both "Mary" and "Amazing Grace" you don't really need a book. You should be able to figure out the song just knowing a good note to start on. Shakuhachi can reach every note in the chromatic scale but some of the notes are hard to get so it helps to start a song on a note where the notes that follow will be easy notes too. For "Mary" start on the note with just the thumb hole and left-hand index finger hole closed (or for another way of describing it, holes 1, 2 and 3 should be open). It should be easy from there.  For "Amazing Grace" start on the note with just holes 1 and 2 opened. The next note would be with only holes 3 and 4 open (only the thumb hole really needs to be closed for this but for tonality reasons the correct fingering is with just holes 3 and 4 open). The third note is the only tricky note in the song, it'll be in the second register, or kan, which can be an challenge for beginners as well as the fingering, which is all holes closed except for the bottom-most hole (hole 1) that you only cover half way. From there it should be relatively easy to figure out.


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#45 2009-11-29 17:43:17

Glenn Swann
Member
From: Central New Jersey
Registered: 2008-03-01
Posts: 151
Website

Re: Stop and make some tea

nyokai wrote:

Todd Frederick wrote:

FtCollins...you said this in a previous posting:

"A teacher back in NJ told me that the sounds of the shakuhachi should be imperfect, like the white in a  brush stroke. "

I like that analogy very much. Seeking perfection is futile.

Teachers say things IN CONTEXT to students. If a student is veering a little too much in one direction, for instance getting too uptight about some detail, the teacher will remind the student of the overall aesthetic, which encompasses great freedom. If a student is getting lax, a teacher might remind him or her of the learning process, which is based on a disciplined attention to detail. Often quotes from teachers are taken out of context and used as an excuse for lack of discipline. Zen Roshis are remembered for pithy sayings that can be misinterpreted to make you feel OK about having a very vague relationship to Buddhist practice; forgotten, or unpublished, are the thousands of admonitions to their students to work harder, to sit up straighter. In the work of great calligraphers, I think, the brush stroke is PERFECTLY imperfect. There is a huge difference between the wild hard-won freedom of a master and the assertion of individualism that often passes for artistic freedom in our culture.

thanks for that reminder. i agree 100%.
as the person whom ft.collins was quoting, i should explain- what i meant was shakuhachi sound, tone color, is not like silver flute- it will always have some "imperfections" which as you said are perfect in themselves(water that is too pure has no fish...). i likened it to the flying white in  calligraphy, with the caveat that in calligraphy you don't try to put it in, but if it happens, sparingly, it makes for a beautiful part of the  aesthetic as a whole. it's not the result of randomly smashing the brush into the paper and dragging any old way. it's got to be there to some extent because the implement is a brush, not a magic marker, and MOTION is part of the art.
  as i remember, indeed, ftcollins needed to relax and let go into the process of practice more, without trying for too much too soon. (sounds like he recently had a breakthru in that direction) so anyway, i wasn't speaking of anything goes, anything passes; was talking more about the quality of sound.
----------------------------------
ps- one further analogy to (east asian) traditional calligraphy.... the "flying white" amount will vary according to the artist's style, and the type of writing he/she is doing. "crazy"or "monk"style will have tons, clerical would be very strange with much at all.... one has to have the ability/flexibility to do both, as called for.
and so with (traditional)shakuhachi- according to the player's personal style, and the genre being played,  sometimes sound will be quite "imperfect", sometimes quite straight. it all depends, and ideally we need to develop the skill thru practice to do both as called for.

Last edited by Glenn Swann (2009-11-29 18:04:08)


I followed rivers, I followed orders,I followed prophets, I followed leaders
I followed rivers, I followed highways,I followed conscience,
I followed dreamers... And I'm back here,
and I'm back here... At the edge of the sky       (New Model Army)

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#46 2009-11-29 17:46:02

Glenn Swann
Member
From: Central New Jersey
Registered: 2008-03-01
Posts: 151
Website

Re: Stop and make some tea

Jim Thompson wrote:

Well said Nyokai! I find it interesting to note the various versions of making a virtue out of avoiding tasks. (That's not to say I don't do it too). My favorite is "trying to play well is an ego trip". How convenient! The ones who are of that opinion have certainly saved themselves a lot of work. For the record, Todd, pursuing perfection may be futile in terms of becoming perfect but it's a great target to use to improve yourself.

also, well said jim- i love the quote i sort of remember from Thich Nhat Hanh (I believe)- if i lose my way at night, i may go toward the north star- it doesn't mean i will ever reach that star, but it shows me the way to proceed....


I followed rivers, I followed orders,I followed prophets, I followed leaders
I followed rivers, I followed highways,I followed conscience,
I followed dreamers... And I'm back here,
and I'm back here... At the edge of the sky       (New Model Army)

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#47 2009-11-29 18:31:12

Todd Frederick
Member
From: Dos Palos CA USA
Registered: 2009-08-29
Posts: 70

Re: Stop and make some tea

radiOgnome,

Thank you for the information about the notes for those two songs. I'll play with it.

I'm a retired elementary school teacher (5th grade) and I can remember hearing students practice their instruments (when we still could afford music in the schools), and usually the two pieces they learned to play first were Twinkle Twinkle Little Star and Mary Had A Little Lamb.

Regarding the YUU:

I've heard some good things about this flute. Part of my interest in shakuhachi, aside from the music, is the beauty of hand made bamboo flutes, especially with fine root ends and a few twists and turns. I see shakuhachi as a multi-aesthetic experience. Also, a solid bamboo flute with a good root end is fine protection on a dark street...;>) However, I guess that the YUU is a consistent and well tuned flute, though I think that natural wood would produce sounds not possible with a synthetic material. Any thoughts?

Last edited by Todd Frederick (2009-11-29 18:35:13)

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#48 2009-11-29 20:52:01

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: Stop and make some tea

Glenn Swann wrote:

i love the quote i sort of remember from Thich Nhat Hanh (I believe)- if i lose my way at night, i may go toward the north star- it doesn't mean i will ever reach that star, but it shows me the way to proceed....

I love that quote too. Here's another one-" I may not know where it's at but I know which direction it is and I can get closer."


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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#49 2009-11-30 00:09:01

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: Stop and make some tea

Todd Frederick wrote:

I have discovered in my newness to Shakuhachi is that we really don't play songs (like "Mary Had A Little Lamb"...lol), or even recognizable melodies with these instruments. We play tonal patterns, create indescribable  sounds variations, use the tones for meditation, or what I lake to call "spirit music" (with the Native American Flutes).

OK, here's the additional comments I have about this. With some Japanese shakuhachi music it's hard to find any melody and sometimes even any recurring themes, however there are a lot of kinds that do. Japanese folk songs are often played on shakuhachi and are very melodic. You can even play many Western melodies, even as complex as jazz. I'm including a link to a tune I'm working on, it's a song written by a jazz singer who got the "melody" from a jazz saxophone improvisation on "I'm In the Mood for Love". It's a work in progress, I'm ignoring timing and there are plenty of rough spots, but it demonstrates that even normal humans can get melodies out of these things: http://www.4shared.com/file/162469363/3 … MOODY.html

And here's a youtube of a brilliant vocal performance of the song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3q7gffjV8k


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#50 2009-11-30 00:37:36

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Stop and make some tea

Todd Frederick wrote:

However, I guess that the YUU is a consistent and well tuned flute, though I think that natural wood would produce sounds not possible with a synthetic material. Any thoughts?

Not really, and especially not at a beginner playing level. Even though there are people on this forum (big, powerful people...) who will argue till the sun burns out that the bamboo has a profound effect on sound produced by a properly shaped flute, the effect of the PLAYER on the sound is so very much more profound than the material the flute is made of. This is not to say that the bamboo (or whatever) has no effect at all.

This is also NOT to say that there are not great, mediocre and poor bamboo, beautifully crafted, root end shakuhachi, nor that for most of us here the shakuhachi is not a 'multi-aesthetic experience'; it most certainly is. It's one reason why people who can afford them have barns full of the things.

I will now pull my thick iron protective shield over my head, and prepare myself.......

Last edited by edosan (2009-11-30 00:39:48)


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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