Mujitsu and Tairaku's Shakuhachi BBQ

I hesitated to actually say Kinko, because at that time even though the Kanto temples played the Kinko repertoire, they may not have all referred to themselves as "Kinko-ryu" as such. For example there was also Ikkan-ryu, though it is essentially the same thing. But I would say yes, Kinko not Myoan.

Well, I don't like disagreeing with John or Shimura who certainly are experts, but I would still say I think it is not Myoan, and is from Kanto. Ishibashi would be the one to ask if you want to check. If he tells you it's Myoan I would like to hear about it, and will certainly take that on board.

Justin wrote:

Kiku Day wrote:

Thus one informant's belief is not always enough and shouldn't really be quoted as the ultimate truth.

Wow. Now if we need more than one "informant" as a source before chatting about anything on a BBQ forum without having to say "this isn't necessarily the ultimate truth" every sentence, things are going to get a little tedious. On the other hand we could just chat in a friendly normal fashion, and offer opposing suggestions, ideas and information in a kindly way if there's something we don't agree with. How about that?

Exactly! You are on the right tracks! Bravo!
Then perhaps you should try that yourself and start out suggesting instead of your style of concluding. For example:

Justin wrote:

Yamaguchi Shugetsu got his ideas for jinashi from Murai Eigoro. These seem to be targeted mainly at Westerners, where there is some popularity of Okuda's style (made by Murai) and the association with Watazumi.

Could be nicer as: I heard from Murai Eigoro that Yamaguchi Shugetsu... bla bla and popularity of Okuda's style (as far as I know made by Murai). In both cases that would have soften up and sharing in a friendly style. Yeah, try it out and the reaction would probably be softer too!

Lorka wrote:

Hey Kiku,

Nex time you talk to Okuda, you should implore him to make a high quality copy of ALL of his 60 honkyoku and to write out the notation.  This would be of great historical importance and would help preserve what he has started.  Of course, his work survives through tramission to his students, but this would be another way of preserving his work.   Even if he never made these recordings available they would still be worth doing.  Just an idea.

Hi Lorka, that is an idea. Okuda probably already has the notation for them all because he always writes down his studies. I know that he goes through a process and writes many variants of a piece after his studies of old scores and recordings before he begins to teach it or play it in public. Yes, perhaps I should try to make him spend a few days in a studio. That could be very nice. Thanks for the suggestion! I didn't think of that before.

Tairaku wrote:

Yungflutes wrote:

These two are representative of the typical Myoan inlays I have come across. They are usually visually thicker from top to bottom. Kinya's design is thinner. I can see how the two can be mistaken.

Does this thinner profile make it more, less or the same in terms of stability?

I think the angle of insertion and amount of connectivity affects the stability.





However, you never know. Here are two inlay replacements I did a while back. The inlays on these two flutes were originally done at different angles and they both still fell off! Maybe due to different glues and whether or not the meeting surfaces were prepped for adhesion.

Justin wrote:

Yungflutes wrote:

Here are two recent repairs I worked on with missing Myoan inlays. The inlays were carved to fit the cavity left by the missing inlays.
http://www.yungflutes.com/logphotos/mattmyoanuta2.jpg http://www.yungflutes.com/logphotos/myoanutarep.jpg

These two are representative of the typical Myoan inlays I have come across. They are usually visually thicker from top to bottom. Kinya's design is thinner. I can see how the two can be mistaken.

The thing that was made very clear to me when I was studying shakuhachi in Japan was that everything shakuhachi related was about subtleties. One can see this played out in the different style of Kinko music. The non indoctrinated may not be able to hear the differences between the various Ryu.

Kinya is well established in the shakuhachi community and has an understanding of the subtle working ways of the shakuhachi world. Everyone, or most players, knows what a Myoan inlay looks like. My take on this is that Kinya designed his utaguchi to honor the Myoan music. Some may not see the difference but other more informed players can.

Hi Perry
Indeed the Myoan utaguchi inlays you show here are thicker than the Kinya inlay. But bare in mind that Kinko inlays also vary in thickness, and angle, but are all recognised as Kinko inlays. You notice yourself that the 2 inlays you have put pictures up for to represent Myoan inlays, are thinner than the ones you usually see. But, you still recognise them as Myoan style. This illustrates the variation. Here are a couple more for you which are thinner still, indeed thinner that Sogawa's:
http://justinshakuhachi.googlepages.com/Myoan2.jpg
http://justinshakuhachi.googlepages.com/Myoan1.jpg

As I said, there used to be a lot of variation within the schools. Nowadays they are more standardised, so that the Kinko inlays are more similar to each other than they were in the 19th century for example, though, there is still variation in angle, thickness and so on. Same goes for the other schools as far as I've seen. From the more modern Myoan utaguchi inlays I've seen, I would agree with you that they are usually thicker than Sogawa's. I think Sogawa's looks nicer.

Yes, I think Kinya's design looks nicer too

I didn't show examples of the thin Myoan inlays because they are, as you verified, not the usual thicker ones. Had I done that, I would have pointed out that the Kinya inlay covers nearly the entire curvature of the utaguchi, even more than the thicker ones. As you can see, thinner ones usually do not cover much of the blowing edge. Additionally, the Kinya conforms and follows the exact curvature of the blowing edge. This is quite an important detail that I do not see on many Myoan inlays.

And due to all the variations (which we really can not confirm whether each one is intentional or due to lack of a steady hand ), we can always come up with a picture to support any point. Kinya's inlays are always spot on to maintain his integrity for craftsmanship and (for lack of a more appropriate concept) "identity branding".

My main reason for posting is to state that Kinya has put out into the world his own inlay that is, to me, uniquely indentifiable and pays homage to his shakuhachi lineage. Whether or not people agree with this is another issue. However, if one acknowledges Kinya's position in the shakuhachi making community, it would seem strange for him put his name on the design that his colleagues see as a Myoan inlay.

If I may use one of my favorite analogies:

Imagine a group of designers at an automobile hood ornament company. One designer, Joe Smith, whips out a drawing of a Mercedes Benz emblem and says "Look guys, I'm gonna call this one The Smith."

I think there are a few different designs:

1. none ("best way").
2. Kinko
3. Myoan/Tozan. These look pretty similar and probably are variations of the same idea. I would say the highly debated "Sogawa" fits under this umbrella.
4. A variety of amorphous designs from the Edo period. John Singer usually calls these "komuso" utaguchi. They don't look exactly like any of the current designs.
5. Knob-U-ryu™ Have not actually seen one but the design is elegant. Thanks ricebag.

Justin wrote:

Yungflutes wrote:

Kinya's design is thinner. I can see how the two can be mistaken.

Yungflutes wrote:

I didn't show examples of the thin Myoan inlays because they are, as you verified, not the usual thicker ones. Had I done that, I would have pointed out that the Kinya inlay covers nearly the entire curvature of the utaguchi, even more than the thicker ones.

Very funny Perry.

Yungflutes wrote:

As you can see, thinner ones usually do not cover much of the blowing edge.

I wouldn't say they don't cover much. But I would say these 2 examples I posted cover less than Kinya's. I would equally post pictures of ones which cover as much, and also more than Kinya's, if I had the time. Unfortunately I am going away for several days so don't have the chance.

Yungflutes wrote:

Additionally, the Kinya conforms and follows the exact curvature of the blowing edge. This is quite an important detail that I do not see on many Myoan inlays.

Though can be seen on many Myoan inlays, including the bottom of the two I posted.

Yungflutes wrote:

And due to all the variations (which we really can not confirm whether each one is intentional or due to lack of a steady hand ),

Neither of the two pictures I posted were badly made at all. Very fine craftsmanship. There is variatoin generally due to each temple, or perhaps even maker/making lineage being different.

Yungflutes wrote:

we can always come up with a picture to support any point. Kinya's inlays are always spot on to maintain his integrity for craftsmanship and (for lack of a more appropriate concept) "identity branding".

Let me make it very clear that I am not at all questioning Sogawa. I don't know about his shakuhachi but I have heard him play and his is an excellant player. I also have mutual friends and understand he is a great person. And I'm not saying there is anything wrong with him calling this inlay Sogawa inlay or Kinya inlay. Most shakuhachi people in Japan wouldn't even recognise a Myoan inlay if they saw one. Most players here have nothing to do with Myoan - it is the extreme minority.

Thanks for sharing your personal thoughts about Kinya. Yes, he is not only  a nice guy and amazing player, but an awesome human being. To paraphrase Kuruhashi Sensei, "Kinya is my favorite person on Earth." I hope you get to meet him soon.

I just think it would be weird to say this inlay not not identifiably Myoan. Even Brian said so too right? Doesn't mean it is also identifyable Sogawa's, even if the all of its atributes might be found on older shakuhachi. Another example, there are some Kinko makers who have obviously Kinko utaguchi, but I can sometimes identify the maker simply by seeing the utaguchi inlay.

This is what I originally wrote:

Yungflutes wrote:

My take on this is that Kinya designed his utaguchi to honor the Myoan music. Some may not see the difference but other more informed players can.

In traditional Japanese arts, its common for a craftsman to acknowledge his /her affiliatiion. Those who know he artist and work can read the clues.

Anyway I was really just following your logic, that it is subtly thinner, and that is why it is not a Myoan utaguchi. And now instead you say it covers more of the edge, and follows the curve of the edge, so that's why it is not Myoan. So to be consistent I thought I should reply to that too. But really it's no big deal I think. It looks nice. In the end it doesn't really matter what one person or another calls it or categorizes it as.

Regardless of what I describe or say, the picture of the Kinya inlay is there for all to judge see. Again, this is Kinya's. I am just the messenger. Kinya calls it a Kinya inlay. You insists that it's a Myoan, but nicer. It's fine with me if you want to leave it at that.

Tairaku wrote:

My friend Michael Velasco and I both had beautiful 1.9's. They looked identical in every way except that mine was nobe and his was 2-piece and mine had Kinko utaguchi and he had Myoan. The bamboo looked exactly the same, tuned the same, sounded the same. One day Michael dropped his and the utaguchi cracked. So he gave it to Perry. When Perry was cleaning up the utaguchi area he found that the Myoan utaguchi on Michael's was actually painted over a Kinko utaguchi! ;-) We were surprised that these two flutes were so similar but that explained it.

Yes, that was quite a surprise! That was a very nice flute.

BTW, I am replacing two inlays this week for some special people on some very nice flutes. Feel free to visit my blog to follow the repairs.

Justin wrote:

Yungflutes wrote:

You insists that it's a Myoan, but nicer. It's fine with me if you want to leave it at that.

Hi Perry
That's not what I said - I said compared to the modern Myoan inlays I have seen, I think Sogawa's looks nicer.

Brian, nice story about those two 1.9s. While you might find Kinko shakuhachi with Tozan inlays or Tozan shakuhachi with Kinko inlays today, to find that on old shakuhachi would be a surprise. Must have had you really puzzled until you found out why!

John S. got Michael's 1.9 with the fake Myoan utaguchi along with a few bona fide Myoan flutes from the estate of a Myoan player. So obviously the owner painted the Myoan utaguchi just for ryu identification. Funny.

Chris Moran wrote:

From the urushi thread:

Tairaku wrote:

I am on the phone with Herr Meister Singer and he says he agrees that flutes without utaguchi inlays or joints are more stable but said he's not sure about ji being more or less stable.

Back to utaguchi inlay (and I've been away from this long thread for a little while so excuse me if I cover ground already covered): See if Herr Meister Singer agrees with my current flute teacher that a good inlay creates a more refined sound and harder "edge" to the Ro which demands a more precise embrochure?

Herr S. called yesterday from New Guinea. I told him his admirers wanted to hear his views. I asked whether he thought an utaguchi inlay changed the tone.

"Yes."

How?

"I don't know. But everything changes the sound."

End of.........

Ahhhh!!!!   So that's why it is also known as a flesh flute or as a beef bugle!

I'm goin' with 'beef bugle'