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#26 2006-05-12 07:31:34

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
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From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
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Re: Zen and Mikkyo

Hi Josh.

I totally agree with you on this one. I just did not want to detail the difference between Soto and Rinzai and wanted to compare the Zen school in general to Mikkyo. Also what you are saying can also be applied with Tendai. For example in Tendai since the Beginning there was not much Mikkyo and their school was more settled in the Madhyamika (Middle way) also their basic meditation called Makashikan relates more to Zen than mikkyo, The full Mikkyo transmission was only brought back from China when Ennin was sent to China to go pick it up so they could compete with Shingon. So both aspects of Kengyo and Mikkyo can be seen in Tendai. This is why most of the initial monks in Rinzai were educated in Tendai. Anyway most schools created in Japan came from Tendai. Now in Shingon I would have to say that their content is more of a 80% Mikkyo for 20% Kengyo.

Again your point is totally right and also says that there is no total and final valid answers. It is all to be seen case by case according to time place who why etc.. Etc...


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

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#27 2006-05-13 07:45:55

Josh
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From: Grand Island, NY/Nara, Japan
Registered: 2005-11-14
Posts: 305
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Re: Zen and Mikkyo

It's interesting that you mention such a strong connection more with Tendai. Last summer I walked the Shikoku 88 temples pilgrimage and played honkyoku at all the hondo and the daishido, and whenever else I felt the urge to play. Along the way, for about a week, a guy from the Tendai shu and I walked together and talked alot about the Fuke shu, Rinzai, Tendai... During that week at the temples he would chant his prayers while I played and he always said that there was some strange, strong connection with the music and his prayers. Obviously this was all just based on the atmoshphere we created, but he was very open to different forms of realization. Especially walking meditation.  But he was very open to and recognized the connectedness between various religions like Shingon (which make up the majority of the 88 temples, but it's really a free for all), Rinzai, Mikkyo, Fuke etc.  It was my first time to meet a dedicated Tendai practitioner and he left a great impression with me.

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#28 2007-07-18 09:07:56

Harazda
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Registered: 2007-06-07
Posts: 126

Re: Zen and Mikkyo

As a recent member of this forum, I just want to say that I find this thread very interesting.  One problem, of course, is the danger of spiritual indigestion one might suffer from encountering so many ideas and opinions.  At this juncture, it's always important to go "back to square."  In this context, I'd like to say that the syllable "A," which is pronounced like "Uhhh..." because it's a short A, represents the basic ground, or Dharmata.  Ajikan, therefore, is a great shakuhachi practice which, I would think, has the power to take one all the way home to complete naturalness and fundamental spiritual wholeness.

Might I also correlate "A" and ro, as in the practice of blowing one long note?  Yes, I might!  However, I think I would say that "A" permeates all the notes because, mystically and technically and medically speaking, it also represents the space element.

All this is why, when I did the music on Illuminated From Within, I did so in the context of Mahamudra... because the Mahamudra hangout lies squarely (roundly?) within "A"... Dharmata... the underlying fundamental nature of mind and phenomena... primordially self-liberated non-dual Wisdom.

I love history too, but I'd say it's important in this time just to go home.

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#29 2007-07-19 17:34:35

Harazda
Member
Registered: 2007-06-07
Posts: 126

Re: Zen and Mikkyo

Gishin - I also want to compliment you on your inquisitive search for truth and meaning.  I think that it's obvious that you're on the right track here, and I'm really stoked about it. 

I got Torsten Olaffson's translation of the Kaido Honsoku a couple years ago, and I find the prospect of the actual rooting of the shakuhachi arts in the Mikkyo schools to be thrilling.  Not that shakuhachi doesn't fit into the Zen spectrum, but to take the shakuhachi and hotchiku to the vajra level is just awesome... in my humble opinion.  There are no barriers! 

Be happy and well!

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#30 2007-07-22 02:57:48

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
Historical Zen Mod
From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
Website

Re: Zen and Mikkyo

Thanks!

Just doing part of my job here. If it was only about funerals and reading Okyo then I would not really be doing the most important par which is to share knowledge.

Now as far as the Mikkyo part from all that I was able to gather from what I have learned in Buddhism I could say the following.

**HISTORICALLY**
Shakuhachi was brought to life by the Fuke sect which is a made up Japanese school based on false or made up documents to justify their existence and lineage back to China. The facts used are very clever and do make sense in many points. But still does not really links itself with Zen when it comes to really bringing down Buddhist texts etc….


**TECHNICALLY**
#1 Shakuhachi when looking at the physical sound  and notation is very near Shomyo.

#2 The concepts used in Shakuhachi mythology like the five holes, many of the titles used for sings have a direct link with Mikkyo itself.

#3 Since the Fuke sect was mostly populated by ordained monks who became Komuso or Ex Bushi who also got the Fuke ordination and joined the ranks it is very important to note that most Bushi clans and family had links to Tendai and Shingon and not the Zen schools as so many might think. The Zen influence came much later and although many Bushi started to learn Zen their family or Clans would still retain their allegiance to their original Buddhist school  since this was also very political, This his partly why I would say that many Mikkyo aspects would have been introduced by this way also we should not neglect that monks who were full time monks by trade and not converted Bushi would have been schooled in another lineage before actually becoming members of the Fuke school since the school itself had not real education program or training centers.


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

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#31 2007-07-22 13:51:05

Tairaku 太楽
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Re: Zen and Mikkyo

That's pretty much the same conclusion Torsten Olafsson came to in his research, although he also said there was Taoism and Shinto mixed into it.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#32 2007-07-23 00:07:28

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
Historical Zen Mod
From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
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Re: Zen and Mikkyo

Tairaku wrote:

That's pretty much the same conclusion Torsten Olafsson came to in his research, although he also said there was Taoism and Shinto mixed into it.

Yep indeed there is some Taoist and Shinto stuff in there as well. In the overall package I would say 10%. If others have reference to Taoist and Shinto stuff it would be interesting to have some links etc. So far I could see references in some titles and also pieces content. Like Tsuru no Sugomori cranes are a very big Taoist theme the same thing goes for Shika no Tone and also you have Horai which refers to Horaisan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horaisan


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

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#33 2007-07-26 15:52:00

Moran from Planet X
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From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
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Re: Zen and Mikkyo

Gishin wrote:

**TECHNICALLY**
#1 Shakuhachi when looking at the physical sound  and notation is very near Shomyo.

#2 The concepts used in Shakuhachi mythology like the five holes, many of the titles used for sings have a direct link with Mikkyo itself.

Has anyone studied Watazumi's recordings making (specific) parallels between his pieces and Shomyo and Mikkyo influences? Place-names in titles? Stylistics? Phrasing?

Last edited by Chris Moran (2007-07-26 15:54:12)


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#34 2007-07-26 16:50:27

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
Historical Zen Mod
From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
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Re: Zen and Mikkyo

My question to you on this one before going any further.

Why Watazumi? Why not other players?


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

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#35 2007-07-26 18:48:28

Moran from Planet X
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Re: Zen and Mikkyo

Gishin wrote:

My question to you on this one before going any further.

Why Watazumi? Why not other players?

Right. Yes, let me make that more general -- specific parallels between Shomyo, Mikkyo and any shakuhachi players' pieces.

But also ... Watazumi's in particular, because I see so little information on his pieces in general in common (and extremely useful) directories like komuso.com. And because the titles of some of his pieces and albums like 'Ryobo to Zenei' and 'Rinbo Yondai' point in a distinctly religious direction. (And because I don't read Japanese.)


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#36 2007-07-26 21:25:31

nyokai
shihan
From: Portland, ME
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 613
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Re: Zen and Mikkyo

Well, in terms of the names of pieces Ajikan is a direct parallel with Mikkyo, as Ajikan is a Shingon meditative practice.

The more melismatic shomyo chants seem most similar to honkyoku, and my understanding is that the hikyoku, or hidden, versions of the chants are the most melismatic. This is certainly true of the few I've heard. But the scale in ALL the shomyo I've heard is yo-sempo, not in-sempo, so there is a pretty large difference there from honkyoku.

Gishin, the only shomyo notation I've seen looked nothing like shakuhachi notation. Is there any way to see the notation you're talking about?

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#37 2007-07-26 21:42:03

Moran from Planet X
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Re: Zen and Mikkyo

nyokai wrote:

The more melismatic shomyo chants ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melisma


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#38 2007-07-26 22:09:06

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
Historical Zen Mod
From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
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Re: Zen and Mikkyo

nyokai wrote:

Well, in terms of the names of pieces Ajikan is a direct parallel with Mikkyo, as Ajikan is a Shingon meditative practice.

The more melismatic shomyo chants seem most similar to honkyoku, and my understanding is that the hikyoku, or hidden, versions of the chants are the most melismatic. This is certainly true of the few I've heard. But the scale in ALL the shomyo I've heard is yo-sempo, not in-sempo, so there is a pretty large difference there from honkyoku.

Gishin, the only shomyo notation I've seen looked nothing like shakuhachi notation. Is there any way to see the notation you're talking about?

Sure I will post some examples when I get back home from work in the morning. Will post some some Shomyo partition which is orginally a Indo/Chinese practice that came to Japan with Tendai and Shingon mostly altough I am sure Nara Buddhism had some form of Shomyo as well. I will also post some Wasan notation which is what the Japanese did with Shomyo.


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

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#39 2007-07-26 23:14:09

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
Historical Zen Mod
From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
Website

Re: Zen and Mikkyo

Chris Moran wrote:

Gishin wrote:

My question to you on this one before going any further.

Why Watazumi? Why not other players?

Right. Yes, let me make that more general -- specific parallels between Shomyo, Mikkyo and any shakuhachi players' pieces.

But also ... Watazumi's in particular, because I see so little information on his pieces in general in common (and extremely useful) directories like komuso.com. And because the titles of some of his pieces and albums like 'Ryobo to Zenei' and 'Rinbo Yondai' point in a distinctly religious direction. (And because I don't read Japanese.)

As far as what I know of Watazumi I feel that his influence was mostly if not Totally Zen. Being originally a Rinzai monk I strongly doubt that he would have any tangible Mikkyo tutelage since Zen and Mikkyo in Japan will rarely mix. If someone wants to investigate Mikkyo and Shakuhachi I would direct them to Takahashi Kuzan's lineage now propagated by Fujiyoshi Etsuzan. On one of his albums he has 2 tracks that are totally linked with Mikkyo and other which have a direct linkage with Buddhism at large Mikkyo to Zen.

As far as I can see those pieces are modern creations and one of them Sange was created by Azechi Keiji and the others when I spoke with Fujiyoshi Etsuzan I was told that they were transmitted to him by his Teacher Takahashi Kuzan and that they were most likely his creation from what I understood at the time. Even if those pieces are mostly new it does show that some Shakuhachi teacher Like Takahashi Kuzan and also Yamamoto Hozan have manifested interest in Mikkyo for some obvious reasons.

For Example

Bhaisajyaguru which was written in Sanskrit but the actual name in Japanese is Yakushi Nyorai. This Nyorai is actually used Mostly in Shingon and Tendai and very rarely discussed or used in Zen and the other sects in Japan.

Komyo which means pure light which comes from the Komyo Shingon (Mantra of Light) this term is 100% Mikkyo.

Sanskrit pronunciation: Om amogha-vairocana mahamudrå mani-padma-jvala pravarttaya hûm.

Japanese pronunciation: on abokya beiroshano maka-bodara mani
handoma jimbara harabaritaya un.

English Meaning: Om Unfailing Vairocana, the great mudra/symbol, mani (jewel), padma/lotus, and jvala/light, evolve! Hum.


Kuyo which means offering usually more properly called Kuyo Saho when doing a ceremony this term can be used by any sects and is not only Mikkyo related.

Sange which means repentance and is read at the beginning of most ceremonies and most sects and is not only Mikkyo related.

Japanese pronunciation: GA SHAKU SHO ZO SHOAKUGO KAIYU MUSHI TONJINCHI JUSHIN GUI SHI SHOSHO ISSAI GAKON KAI SANGE

English meaning: All the evil karma ever created by me in the past;
on account of my beginningless attachment, aversion, and ignorance;
arising from my actions, speech and thought;
I now confess openly and fully.


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

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#40 2007-07-27 01:02:48

Moran from Planet X
Member
From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
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Re: Zen and Mikkyo

Gishin wrote:

If someone wants to investigate Mikkyo and Shakuhachi I would direct them to Takahashi Kuzan's lineage now propagated by Fujiyoshi Etsuzan.

I have often wondered about Fujiyoshi Etsuzan. I'm happy to have this reference.

(Ginshin, I'm just going to make some notes to the following trying to anchor what you are describing in my scattered knowledge of buddhism and/or shakuhachi. Mainly so you know that I appreciate your answers.)

Gishin wrote:

Bhaisajyaguru which was written in Sanskrit but the actual name in Japanese is Yakushi Nyorai. This Nyorai is actually used Mostly in Shingon and Tendai and very rarely discussed or used in Zen and the other sects in Japan.

Seeing this in Sanskrit transliteration on a Japanese album was interesting. http://www.komuso.com/albums/Reibo_-_Fu … hachi.html

Bhaisajyaguru known to more English speakers who study Vajrayana as Medicine Buddha. The Twelve Vows of Bhaisajyaguru reads quite a bit, in translation, like the Pali Metta Sutta.

Gishin wrote:

Komyo which means pure light which comes from the Komyo Shingon (Mantra of Light) this term is 100% Mikkyo.

Sanskrit pronunciation: Om amogha-vairocana mahamudrå mani-padma-jvala pravarttaya hûm.

Japanese pronunciation: on abokya beiroshano maka-bodara mani
handoma jimbara harabaritaya un.

English Meaning: Om Unfailing Vairocana, the great mudra/symbol, mani (jewel), padma/lotus, and jvala/light, evolve! Hum.

Vairocana, the Cosmic Buddha at the Center of the Universe. (Birushana in Japanese?) A figure of very deep devotion (especially) in The Flower Garland Sutra.

(Any relationship between the Japanese term komyo, 'pure light' and the Tibetan osel which means 'clear light'?)

Gishin wrote:

Kuyo which means offering usually more properly called Kuyo Saho when doing a ceremony this term can be used by any sects and is not only Mikkyo related.

Similar in use to Tamuke?

Gishin wrote:

Sange which means repentance and is read at the beginning of most ceremonies and most sects and is not only Mikkyo related.

Japanese pronunciation: GA SHAKU SHO ZO SHOAKUGO KAIYU MUSHI TONJINCHI JUSHIN GUI SHI SHOSHO ISSAI GAKON KAI SANGE

English meaning: All the evil karma ever created by me in the past;
on account of my beginningless attachment, aversion, and ignorance;
arising from my actions, speech and thought;
I now confess openly and fully.

I love the phrase 'beginningless attachment, aversion, and ignorance".

Thank you again.


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#41 2007-07-27 02:02:04

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
Historical Zen Mod
From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
Website

Re: Zen and Mikkyo

Chris Moran wrote:

Gishin wrote:

If someone wants to investigate Mikkyo and Shakuhachi I would direct them to Takahashi Kuzan's lineage now propagated by Fujiyoshi Etsuzan.

I have often wondered about Fujiyoshi Etsuzan. I'm happy to have this reference.

(Gishin, I'm just going to make some notes to the following trying to anchor what you are describing in my scattered knowledge of buddhism and/or shakuhachi. Mainly so you know that I appreciate your answers.)

Gishin wrote:

Bhaisajyaguru which was written in Sanskrit but the actual name in Japanese is Yakushi Nyorai. This Nyorai is actually used Mostly in Shingon and Tendai and very rarely discussed or used in Zen and the other sects in Japan.

Seeing this in Sanskrit transliteration on a Japanese album was interesting. http://www.komuso.com/albums/Reibo_-_Fu … hachi.html

Bhaisajyaguru known to more English speakers who study Vajrayana as Medicine Buddha. The Twelve Vows of Bhaisajyaguru reads quite a bit, in translation, like the Pali Metta Sutta.

Gishin wrote:

Komyo which means pure light which comes from the Komyo Shingon (Mantra of Light) this term is 100% Mikkyo.

Sanskrit pronunciation: Om amogha-vairocana mahamudrå mani-padma-jvala pravarttaya hûm.

Japanese pronunciation: on abokya beiroshano maka-bodara mani
handoma jimbara harabaritaya un.

English Meaning: Om Unfailing Vairocana, the great mudra/symbol, mani (jewel), padma/lotus, and jvala/light, evolve! Hum.

Vairocana, the Cosmic Buddha at the Center of the Universe. (Birushana in Japanese?) A figure of very deep devotion (especially) in The Flower Garland Sutra.

ACTUALLY BIRUSHANA HAS ITS OWN SUTRA AS WELL (THE DAINICHI KYO)
LINKS TO INFO ON BIRUSHANA/
http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/birushana.shtml
http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/dainichi.shtml

(Any relationship between the Japanese term komyo, 'pure light' and the Tibetan osel which means 'clear light'?) NOT SURE WOULD HAVE TO CHECK WITH PEOPLE WHO ARE IN THE TIBETAN TRADITION I REALY DO NOT HAVE ANY BACKGROUND IN THIS FIELD

Gishin wrote:

Kuyo which means offering usually more properly called Kuyo Saho when doing a ceremony this term can be used by any sects and is not only Mikkyo related.

Similar in use to Tamuke? YES AND NO IN THE FEELING WHEN PLAYING YES IN TERMINOLOGY NO (TAMUKE MEANS PUTTING HANDS TOGETER

Gishin wrote:

Sange which means repentance and is read at the beginning of most ceremonies and most sects and is not only Mikkyo related.

Japanese pronunciation: GA SHAKU SHO ZO SHOAKUGO KAIYU MUSHI TONJINCHI JUSHIN GUI SHI SHOSHO ISSAI GAKON KAI SANGE

English meaning: All the evil karma ever created by me in the past;
on account of my beginningless attachment, aversion, and ignorance;
arising from my actions, speech and thought;
I now confess openly and fully.

I love the phrase 'beginningless attachment, aversion, and ignorance".

Thank you again.


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

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#42 2007-07-27 09:18:30

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
Historical Zen Mod
From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
Website

Re: Zen and Mikkyo

Ok Nyokai here are the pics you wanted to see.

Since Shomyo is basically for monks and is part of esoteric transmissions I will not post full notation or even give the title of which chant those pics come from. The pics included are part of 3 different chants. I chose to do this since this is part of the rule that we have to obey in not sharing any of the stuff with outsiders. I will gladly explain some stuff but will not go in details as to meaning visualizations etc. As you will see also on Japanese websites very rarely have I seen full notation or when there is there will be some stuff that is intentionally missing.

Pics 1 to 3 Shomyo notation

http://shunpukandojo.zaadz.com/photos/v … 4#comments

http://shunpukandojo.zaadz.com/photos/v … 5#comments

http://shunpukandojo.zaadz.com/photos/v … 6#comments


Last pic is a Wasan, which is a Japanized form of Shomyo that is chanted by monks and lay people as well.

http://shunpukandojo.zaadz.com/photos/v … 9#comments


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

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#43 2007-07-27 12:11:17

jb
Member
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 24

Re: Zen and Mikkyo

Hi.

I mostly do not follow this thread, but I saw Bhaisaja-guru.  That's the Medicine Buddha and the whole text and explanation has breen published - the Tibetan Version and the English translation.  Thrangu Rinpoche says that the whole teaching and text should be available.  He specifically gives permission to those who attended the teaching to share the text and teaching with others.  Then he published the teaching and text.

There are some errors, but in a translated teaching you do not know whether the error is in the teacher or the understanding of the translator.  For example, Om sobhava shuddha sarva dharma, sobhava shuddho ham - means just that all things are empty and so am I.  The explanation in the teaching is not clear.

In addition, starting in the 1980s, the Tibetan teaching was that basic Avalokita & Tara practices did not require an initiation.

The problem is not with secrecy, but with lack of practice.

jb

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#44 2007-07-27 12:15:34

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
Historical Zen Mod
From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
Website

Re: Zen and Mikkyo

Ok sounds good. But what is the relation with the previous posts other than the mention of Yakushi Nyorai? What are you trying to expose exactly?

the reason why I am saying this is because too often/almost each time posts that have only remote relation the what is being discussed are posted.

If the point you are trying to make is about the fact that there was info that was considered as confidential/secret that I was not going to share.Well your point of compariosn being Tibetan Buddhism would not really apply. In Mikkyo under Tendai,Shingon or Shugendo you are not to discuss secret or advanced teachings with the public PERIOD. The same goes of most Japanese art forms when they are practiced under a traditional lineage. The same can be said of Shakuhachi. There is bunch of written and non writeen stuff and tricks that are only transmitted orally and that are not to be given to beginners or outsider of the school.


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

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#45 2007-07-27 12:43:52

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3222
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Re: Zen and Mikkyo

Gishin wrote:

The same can be said of Shakuhachi. There is bunch of written and non writeen stuff and tricks that are only transmitted orally and that are not to be given to beginners or outsider of the school.

Thanks for mentioning this. That's why I prefer when the "technique" issues stay very basic. Besides that it's dangerous to teach advanced techniques on the internet.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#46 2007-07-27 12:47:32

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
Historical Zen Mod
From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
Website

Re: Zen and Mikkyo

Tairaku wrote:

Gishin wrote:

The same can be said of Shakuhachi. There is bunch of written and non writeen stuff and tricks that are only transmitted orally and that are not to be given to beginners or outsider of the school.

Thanks for mentioning this. That's why I prefer when the "technique" issues stay very basic. Besides that it's dangerous to teach advanced techniques on the internet.

Well this is just the reality when it comes to Shakuhachi as you said. Main point in this as far as th internet goes is that you would have sincere fols asking questions to which they cannot comprehend the answer or if they do still lack the proper basics to apply the technique themselves without having a teacher near them to put them straight. I would be surprised to hear what is the ability of most folks who have been asking you and other teachers bunch of questions about technique over the web. If you have you strong basics you dont need to actually ask questions the only thing you will need is correction/precision from your teacher as far as I am concerned.


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

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#47 2007-07-27 13:13:41

Harazda
Member
Registered: 2007-06-07
Posts: 126

Re: Zen and Mikkyo

Just a quick thought here, as I don't have much time.  Whether it's Tibetan or Japanese Vajrayana, it's all coming originally out of India.  I think that the concern about secrecy has to do with the fact that empowerments and authorization to do certain practices are often referred to as "ripening" in effect.  With empowerment, it's as though the contents are poured from a lineage master into the mindstream of the student.  There must be a proper basis in Bodhicitta (basically, altuistic motivation), and without the "ripening" empowerments, the recipient will approach the contents with perverted view... the result of which in the long run will be damaging to all parties. 

This is just a short and simple explanation, but I think it's basically correct.

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#48 2007-07-27 13:41:50

Tairaku 太楽
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Re: Zen and Mikkyo

Harazda wrote:

With empowerment, it's as though the contents are poured from a lineage master into the mindstream of the student.  There must be a proper basis in Bodhicitta (basically, altuistic motivation), and without the "ripening" empowerments, the recipient will approach the contents with perverted view... the result of which in the long run will be damaging to all parties. 

This is just a short and simple explanation, but I think it's basically correct.

Well if what you're saying is true that's problematic in terms of shakuhachi transmission (by which I might mean the giving of teaching licenses). Because a lot of that is based simply upon a students ability to absorb the musical materials and what they're going to do with it later is not always a major component. Some students want licenses even though they have no intention of teaching for example.


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#49 2007-07-27 15:02:54

Moran from Planet X
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Re: Zen and Mikkyo

Tairaku wrote:

Besides that it's dangerous to teach advanced techniques on the internet.

Yes, too many individual variables. You could write instructions all day, if you were so inclined, and you still could not duplicate the effectiveness of observing your student doing something physically wrong in his technique and correcting it with a a simple touch of your hand, which takes about 5 seconds.

I dare say the same thing translates to complex ritual and translations of sacred texts. For a teaching to be as complete as possible the teacher should observe the student's behavior and have a good appraisal of the student's fund of knowledge, otherwise how (as a teacher) can you be certain that you are doing the best job possible in transmitting your knowledge.

Last edited by Chris Moran (2007-07-27 15:24:27)


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#50 2007-07-27 18:55:54

Harazda
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Registered: 2007-06-07
Posts: 126

Re: Zen and Mikkyo

Tairaku, I don't think what I am referring to above relates directly to shakuhachi licensing transmission.  Now, Shakyamuni is said to have "transmitted" to Kashyapa, and this Mind Transmission is there in Zen, passed down to successive generations. 

I'm not at all familiar with Mikkyo empowerments, but in the Tibetan schools empowerment is very complex on the surface, but is essentially entering the mandala of a particular enlightened stream of energy, which for covenience is known as a deity, e.g. Medicine Buddha, or Mahakala.

Are there instances of shakuhachi students attaining kensho or satori upon special transmission from their teachers?  If there are, I have not heard about it.  There is an endless amount of information I do not have; perhaps it happens!

That being said, it is said by the lamas that empowerment ripens the student through conferring authorization to realize and express the latent Buddha nature within the student, as well as through the actual blessings of the teacher and the lineage masters throughout antiquity.  After the Vajrayana empowerment, a student breaks the vow with the teacher if he or she ever considers themselves, or anyone else for that matter, to NOT be the deity.  Remember, this is Buddhist tantrism, in which appearances and infinite enlightened space become co-spatial, so to speak.  They are experienced as non-dual.

In the Zen schools, I'd say that the goal is actually the same, but the means are just different; it's a different ball game... equal in profundity, and designed to suit a different kind of aspirant on the Path.  But I find Gishins introduction of Mikkyo, along with Olaffson's, to be most fascinating.

One thing off the top of my head:  I think Vajrayana practice could be said to be very goal-oriented, while Zen is very process-oriented.  That's why in Zen one might , say, sweep a walkway and in the process learn how to sweep in Whole Mind... and how, by playing the shakuhachi, learn how to play with Whole Mind.  After this is integrated, EVERYTHING might be approached with Whole Mind.

In the Vajrayana, everything is enacted in order to save countless beings from their self-made hells, bringing them to stainless Liberation once and for all, and the work must be relentless, as though no one else is going to do it!

Vajrayana and Zen are just two different flavors on the same ice cream cone.

Last edited by Harazda (2007-07-27 19:09:01)

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