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#51 2007-07-27 21:41:46

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
Historical Zen Mod
From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
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Re: Zen and Mikkyo

Harazda I have to say your last post could not have been written any better. Altough TIbetan Vajrayana and Mikkyo have some diffrences what you have written sums up very well the whole Mikkyo/Vajaryana and Zen post you just put up was really good in putting clear words and explanations to describe the goals/approaches each lineage has.


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

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#52 2007-07-28 00:50:03

chikuzen
Dai Shihan/Dokyoku
From: Cleveland Heights,OH 44118
Registered: 2005-10-24
Posts: 401
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Re: Zen and Mikkyo

I just read all your posts since May three times thru thinking I would gain better insight each reading. Ha. It's  well into morning and I need a good smack with a stick . Nevertheless, I have a couple questions and comments. Concerning the Rinzai sect  & Fuke Shu people, was any part of this relationship created because the Fuke sect was poor and the Rinzai sect had money? It sounds plausible. If so, what was the benefit to the Rinzai sect?

  As for showing a student a new technique when they're not ready, it's quite a disservice. It's a great thing the mind filters out so much of what's going on. Like a moving TV antenna, it gets a better picture if it's gets stopped on one station showing something they can begin to understand thru the imagination that has been awakened into action and work into their practice. A rule in many traditions is never to share something with someone before they are ready, especially in spiritual practices where it really could be damaging and take a long time and a lot more care to heal up.

   I have seen what was mentioned about some people getting a licence in Japan without having any intention of teaching. Many people there study to be studying something all the time. It's prevalent. There is a lot of sociol bonding going on ,etc. These people don't go into the whole thing thinking of getting a licence to start teaching though and are very honest, first with themselves and then also with others, about it.  I have to laugh again about the american who took four shakuhachi lessons and became a shakuhachi teacher charging $30/lesson, when compared to my student in Korea who asked a calligraphy teacher for lessons. The teacher said he would teach him but couldn't accept any money as he had been studying only 15 years. References!


Michael Chikuzen Gould

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#53 2007-07-28 03:47:22

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
Historical Zen Mod
From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
Website

Re: Zen and Mikkyo

I will try to make this a short answer. Now as far as what I will write here those are my personal assumptions based on other facts throughout Japanese Buddhist history.

Now your question was ((Concerning the Rinzai sect  & Fuke Shu people, was any part of this relationship created because the Fuke sect was poor and the Rinzai sect had money? It sounds plausible. If so, what was the benefit to the Rinzai sect?))

To begin answering you I will start by explaining the History of Zen in general. For Example let’s take the Rinzai School. This School was started by Eisai who was originally a Tendai monk. When he started the Rinzai School at first it was not totally independent and was mixed to various extant with the Tendai School. Later on both got totally split since there was some animosity of the Mikkyo VS Zen stuff and various other stuff like the comparison of Makashikan to Zazen etc…

When we look at the Fuke Shu and take for Example the Myoan Ji. It is interesting to see when thinking of its location that it is situated in the vicinity of the Tofukuji which is a big Rinzai center. I would say that it is safe to assume that in the old days the surrounding land was owned by the Rinzai sect and that the existence of the Myoan Ji at this particular location was largely due to the acceptance of the Fuke Shu by the Rinzai sect. So since the beginning we can see that the Fuke School was under the wing of a previous movement who already had Land, money, power etc..

Now how could this be of benefit to the Rinzai school?

Maybe because of the nature of the Komuso as having the special license that granted them a free pas to travel anywhere would have been very interesting. Since like many other big school the Rinzai sect had ramifications within the military government if they had some monks that were part of their school or some other school traveling around this could be a great way to pass or gain information trough non official channels in comparisons to sending official letters or even getting to one place to deliver vital info since going out of your land needed to be approved by the authorities. 

I also think that with time this type of use of the Fuke sect was basically the major means of income for the Komuso in order to travel around and also keep their satellite temples in shape and there is also the negative effect that it attracted a bunch of Ronin who were using the suit to travel around and hide from the authorities or work for the authorities using the Komuso garb.

Last edited by Gishin (2007-07-30 01:10:53)


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

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#54 2007-07-28 07:16:59

nyokai
shihan
From: Portland, ME
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 613
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Re: Zen and Mikkyo

Gishin wrote:

Pics 1 to 3 Shomyo notation

http://shunpukandojo.zaadz.com/photos/v … 4#comments

http://shunpukandojo.zaadz.com/photos/v … 5#comments

http://shunpukandojo.zaadz.com/photos/v … 6#comments


Last pic is a Wasan, which is a Japanized form of Shomyo that is chanted by monks and lay people as well.

http://shunpukandojo.zaadz.com/photos/v … 9#comments

Thanks, Gishin. I still don't see any relation to shakuhachi notation, but maybe it's just because I don't understand this notation...

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#55 2007-07-28 07:36:16

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
Historical Zen Mod
From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
Website

Re: Zen and Mikkyo

We can choose to agree to disagree on this one. But it was quite obvious to me and other people in the Shakuhachi field that there is close resemblance with Honkyoku in the fact that there is the breathing marks and also all the different ways of line/sound bending and other details marks about intonation put beside the Kanji/Bonji when needed. And also the overall layout.


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

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#56 2007-07-28 11:29:34

chikuzen
Dai Shihan/Dokyoku
From: Cleveland Heights,OH 44118
Registered: 2005-10-24
Posts: 401
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Re: Zen and Mikkyo

Another dumb question from me but, do you think historically there were monks who did shomyo and played shakuhachi? I think I remember somebody saying Fuke shu people didn't chant sutras? I hope I'm remembering wrongly because it doesn't make sense to me. We have a temple but don't chant sutras? Wouldn't that invite suspicion? And where then did the references for many of these songs come from?? Many of the songs with Buddhist titles serve the the same function as chanting a sutra even though they are a bit more melodic in that they are experientially based. Something you do to increase concentration and energy levels to induce a trance or invite a different spiritual experience, like a mantra or Darahni. Can we imagine that the mind of the monk is the place where the shomyo and shakuhachi playing converge? It's easy to imagine someone who chanted shomyo, if they were involved in making shakuhachi music, eventually coming up with stuff like Honkyoku as they deal with sound in very similiar manner, i.e., how they bend the sound and where they bend the sound, how the use the swelling of the voice and different intensities of the same sound with the shakuhachi. On & on.


Michael Chikuzen Gould

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#57 2007-07-29 23:29:23

Daniel Ryudo
Shihan/Kinko Ryu
From: Kochi, Japan
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 355

Re: Zen and Mikkyo

Interesting discussion concerning the relationship between Fuke-shu and Rinzai.  Gishin said concerning Myoan-ji  "It is interesting to see when thinking of its location that it is situated in the vicinity of the Daitokuji which is a big Rinzai center."  We may hold different definitions of vicinity but I think perhaps you meant to say Tofukuji, rather than Daitokuji -- both are big Rinzai centers but Myoan-ji is at least a couple of hours walk from Daitokuji, Myoan-ji being in SE Kyoto, while Daitokuji is in the north central part of the city.

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#58 2007-07-30 01:09:15

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
Historical Zen Mod
From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
Website

Re: Zen and Mikkyo

Daniel Ryudo wrote:

Interesting discussion concerning the relationship between Fuke-shu and Rinzai.  Gishin said concerning Myoan-ji  "It is interesting to see when thinking of its location that it is situated in the vicinity of the Daitokuji which is a big Rinzai center."  We may hold different definitions of vicinity but I think perhaps you meant to say Tofukuji, rather than Daitokuji -- both are big Rinzai centers but Myoan-ji is at least a couple of hours walk from Daitokuji, Myoan-ji being in SE Kyoto, while Daitokuji is in the north central part of the city.

Whooohooo!

Yes I should cutback on crack!  It IS! Tofukiji!! Slapping onself!  No excuses for this kind of mistake. I guess I wrote that coming back from one of my graveyard shifts this would explain the mixup, Anyway thanks for the corection.!!!

Will edit my post to reflect this.


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

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#59 2007-07-30 02:29:30

Daniel Ryudo
Shihan/Kinko Ryu
From: Kochi, Japan
Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 355

Re: Zen and Mikkyo

Hi Gishin.  The only reason I noticed is that I often walk past Daitokuji on my visits to to Kyoto as my shakuhachi maker lives in the vicinity.  I imagine monks may have made the trek between the two Rinzai centers on foot in the old days, though nowadays most people drive or take the subway and a local train line.  It would be interesting to see how long a walk it would be...

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#60 2007-07-30 05:19:31

Priapus Le Zen M☮nk
Historical Zen Mod
From: St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
Registered: 2006-04-25
Posts: 612
Website

Re: Zen and Mikkyo

chikuzen wrote:

Another dumb question from me but, do you think historically there were monks who did shomyo and played shakuhachi?.

Historically there was some monks doing Shomyo and Shakuhachi? Why not. I am sure that even if Shakuhachi was a Fuke thing that some Tendai and Shingo monks must have been playing it. More precisely there was Ennin (Jikaku Daishi) a famous Tendai priest who was know to play the Amida-Kyo with that Shakuhachi and was using the Shakuhachi as a tool for teaching when he got old and his voice was not strong enough to sing Shomyo. This fact is very well known among Tendai historian and Japanese Buddhism scholars.

Link to Ennin info http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ennin


You can read it in English in Riley Lee’s PHD thesis. The only one thing I would like to point out from Riley Lee's indications in the following paragraph.

Both state that the Buddhist priest Jikaku Taishi Ennin (慈覚大使円仁, 794-864), who is credited with bringing the shômyô (声明) chant of the Tendai (天台) sect from China, performed the chant "Inzei no Amida Kyo" (引声の阿弥陀経) on the shakuhachi due to a weak voice.

This is not entirely correct. There was some Tendai Shomyo before Ennin. This Shomyo was brought in by Saicho (Dengyo Daishi) the founder of the Tendai sect in Japan. What Ennin actually brought in was the Godaisn.JP / Wutaishan.CH type of Shomyo which later on gave birth to the Wasan.


chikuzen wrote:

I think I remember somebody saying Fuke shu people didn't chant sutras? I hope I'm remembering wrongly because it doesn't make sense to me. We have a temple but don't chant sutras? Wouldn't that invite suspicion? And where then did the references for many of these songs come from??

Now back to your questions.

Whoever said this is actually correct since a Komuso concentrates on Shakuhachi. But it would be also quite foolish to think that the priests who were in charge of the satellite temples did not read/chant sutras and that the previously ordained monks from other schools who became Komuso did not chant sutra as well. So this is why when you come in with how did they get their reference for the songs the answer to this would have been in their Buddhist studies. They would have needed to have had some form of formal Buddhist studies in order to have made references to Buddhist concepts in Honkyoku titles/ sound structure in comparison to Shomyo.


chikuzen wrote:

Many of the songs with Buddhist titles serve the the same function as chanting a sutra even though they are a bit more melodic in that they are experientially based. Something you do to increase concentration and energy levels to induce a trance or invite a different spiritual experience, like a mantra or Darahni. Can we imagine that the mind of the monk is the place where the shomyo and shakuhachi playing converge? It's easy to imagine someone who chanted shomyo, if they were involved in making shakuhachi music, eventually coming up with stuff like Honkyoku as they deal with sound in very similiar manner, i.e., how they bend the sound and where they bend the sound, how the use the swelling of the voice and different intensities of the same sound with the shakuhachi. On & on.

As for the last part of your post I have nothing more to add since I do think the exact same thing as you on this subject.


Sebastien 義真 Cyr
春風館道場 Shunpukan Dojo
St-Jerome, Quebec, Canada
http://www.myspace.com/shunpukandojo

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