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#26 2009-12-12 15:19:32

ABRAXAS
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Re: Sabu Orimo solo shakuhachi LP

Based on the overtones of his art, the anecdotal material about him blowing off everything to live in a tent by a river, and only occasionally issuing a recording on obscure labels in format that insures a limited audience, I'll wager that he doesn't really lose much sleep over where he "fits in" anywhere.

Pure speculation on my part, but a respectable position if so. IMHO.

Last edited by ABRAXAS (2009-12-12 15:20:03)


"Shakuhachi music stirs up both gods and demons." -- Ikkyu.

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#27 2009-12-12 18:16:36

Tairaku 太楽
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Re: Sabu Orimo solo shakuhachi LP

ABRAXAS wrote:

Based on the overtones of his art, the anecdotal material about him blowing off everything to live in a tent by a river, and only occasionally issuing a recording on obscure labels in format that insures a limited audience, I'll wager that he doesn't really lose much sleep over where he "fits in" anywhere.

Pure speculation on my part, but a respectable position if so. IMHO.

I think he's a process artist, intentional or not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Process_art


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#28 2009-12-12 18:56:06

Jim Thompson
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Re: Sabu Orimo solo shakuhachi LP

Tairaku wrote:

a process artist, intentional or not.

Process artist! What a concept! I'd never thought of it that way. I realize in retrospect that I've done that unconsciously and must say, in my particular case, regretted the results. You don't have to live with the process but you do have to live with the results.


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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#29 2009-12-12 23:50:48

ABRAXAS
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Posts: 353

Re: Sabu Orimo solo shakuhachi LP

Tairaku wrote:

ABRAXAS wrote:

Based on the overtones of his art, the anecdotal material about him blowing off everything to live in a tent by a river, and only occasionally issuing a recording on obscure labels in format that insures a limited audience, I'll wager that he doesn't really lose much sleep over where he "fits in" anywhere.

Pure speculation on my part, but a respectable position if so. IMHO.

I think he's a process artist, intentional or not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Process_art

Excellent!


"Shakuhachi music stirs up both gods and demons." -- Ikkyu.

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#30 2009-12-13 00:00:44

edosan
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From: Salt Lake City
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Re: Sabu Orimo solo shakuhachi LP

I am whelmed with dubiety...


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#31 2009-12-13 00:01:57

Karmajampa
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Re: Sabu Orimo solo shakuhachi LP

Like how Jackson Pollock died, that was a work of 'Process Art".

K.


Kia Kaha !

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#32 2009-12-13 01:40:06

Moran from Planet X
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Re: Sabu Orimo solo shakuhachi LP

Tairaku wrote:

I think he's a process artist, intentional or not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Process_art

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2765/4180171225_a8f3cd9e05_o.jpg
Bruce Nauman, American. Neon. 1972.


And  more intentional process art, this from 1987: Bruce Nauman CLOWN TORTURE


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#33 2009-12-13 13:34:05

Mujitsu
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Re: Sabu Orimo solo shakuhachi LP

Chris Moran wrote:

I'd love to hear some ideas and critique from Mujitsu.

I'm not that familiar with Sabu so I can't really offer a fair critique. However, I do find the clips refreshing enough on their own terms to hear more.

This is an interesting discussion. It makes me wonder what and why it is that a particular expression moves us or not?

Chris Moran wrote:

Big avante gardist whom I refernse: Lou Harrison and Harry Partch, Josef Beuys. But probably too old school for this discussion.

In school, those avant gardists, along with John Cage, William Burroughs, etc. were our 'old school' foundation. Bill Colvig was a big instrument making influence. All night sound collage radio with Negativ Land was also a lot of fun! Recently, Jim (Abraxas) introduced me to the incredible free improvisation of Arrington de Dionyso.

ABRAXAS wrote:

Based on the overtones of his art, the anecdotal material about him blowing off everything to live in a tent by a river, and only occasionally issuing a recording on obscure labels in format that insures a limited audience, I'll wager that he doesn't really lose much sleep over where he "fits in" anywhere.

Pure speculation on my part, but a respectable position if so. IMHO.

I get a charge out of artists who don't ask permission and feel no interest in defending their 'own' path. They just get to work.

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#34 2009-12-13 19:16:15

Moran from Planet X
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Re: Sabu Orimo solo shakuhachi LP

Mujitsu wrote:

Chris Moran wrote:

Big avante gardist whom I refernse: Lou Harrison and Harry Partch, Josef Beuys. But probably too old school for this discussion.

In school, those avant gardists, along with John Cage, William Burroughs, etc. were our 'old school' foundation. Bill Colvig was a big instrument making influence. All night sound collage radio with Negativ Land was also a lot of fun! Recently, Jim (Abraxas) introduced me to the incredible free improvisation of Arrington de Dionyso.

From Arrington de Dionyso's myspace profile: "...  Tuvan throatsinging and the ecclesiastics of Albert Ayler and Don Van Vliet."

1. I love the way he turns "ecclesiastics" into a verb, like 'gymnastics'. Fcking brilliant. Damn, that's good, inspired poetic writing just on its own.

2. He also isn't claiming to play as if his performance is without influence, like "a guy picking up a bass clarinet on a deserted island." He cites his inspiration and sources "Tuvan throatsinging and the ecclesiastics of Albert Ayler and Don Van Vliet" (all of which/whom I love, btw).

3. His intention is clear -- to make improvisations as an extension of a tradition of improvisation. He names those traditions and he performs out of them and expands them along parameters of performance which he sets. "Arrington performs on the bass clarinet, jaw harps, and his voice with a distinctly multiphonic ability inspired by Tuvan throatsinging and the ecclesiastics of Albert Ayler and Don Van Vliet." That is clear and honest intention even if he has nothing else to say.

Mujitsu wrote:

I get a charge out of artists who don't ask permission and feel no interest in defending their 'own' path. They just get to work.

I agree, but he isn't living in a primitive vacuum. He's producing records and a website and promoting himself to the world, hence 'criticism' is a natural dialogue between other musicians and just -- as importantly -- his audience (both narrow and wide).

For me, defense has to be a part of being an artist -- as much as it is to be a philosopher. As an artist you know what your doing and you at least have a fluid concept about where you want to go. You may not be able to articulate that, but that is another story. I sure couldn't articulate what I was trying to do artistically when I was young.


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#35 2009-12-13 19:47:32

Tairaku 太楽
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Re: Sabu Orimo solo shakuhachi LP

Chris Moran wrote:

[

For me, defense has to be a part of being an artist -- as much as it is to be a philosopher.

Philosopher is already dealing in words. Artist or musician is working in a different medium, the stuff has to speak for itself.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#36 2009-12-13 20:00:25

edosan
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From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Sabu Orimo solo shakuhachi LP

Chris Moran wrote:

1. I love the way he turns "ecclesiastics" into a verb, like 'gymnastics'. Fcking brilliant. Damn, that's good, inspired poetic writing just on its own.

Um, last time I checked, 'gymnastics' was a noun, as in 'mental gymnastics', and ecclesiastics is just a synonym for the class 'minister/priest/cleric'.

Not a particularly big stretch on that one (sorry).


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#37 2009-12-13 20:13:38

Karmajampa
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Posts: 574
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Re: Sabu Orimo solo shakuhachi LP

Tairaku wrote:

Chris Moran wrote:

[

For me, defense has to be a part of being an artist -- as much as it is to be a philosopher.

Philosopher is already dealing in words. Artist or musician is working in a different medium, the stuff has to speak for itself.

That would be excellent, and rare,, to debate a piece of music with music, or color with color, .....though usually it is necessary to use words.

Certainly a different perspective of understanding when it can be articulated with words. Perhaps not actually understood until it CAN be articulated with words.

We would be debating with music when we 'jam' together. Sparring with music. a 'Shika no tone 'duet.

K.


Kia Kaha !

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#38 2009-12-13 20:36:32

ABRAXAS
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Posts: 353

Re: Sabu Orimo solo shakuhachi LP

Arrington de Dionyso is excellent - I'm also grateful for this thread for finding out about Mats Gustafsson.

Last edited by ABRAXAS (2009-12-13 21:19:58)


"Shakuhachi music stirs up both gods and demons." -- Ikkyu.

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#39 2009-12-13 21:09:17

Karmajampa
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Re: Sabu Orimo solo shakuhachi LP

A lot of these threads feel like "Process art".

K.


Kia Kaha !

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#40 2009-12-13 21:15:13

Mujitsu
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Re: Sabu Orimo solo shakuhachi LP

Chris Moran wrote:

For me, defense has to be a part of being an artist -- as much as it is to be a philosopher.

I think so too. But I think it can also be good to not be concerned with those things. How's that for philosophy? wink

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#41 2009-12-13 22:24:18

Tairaku 太楽
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Re: Sabu Orimo solo shakuhachi LP

ABRAXAS wrote:

finding out about Mats Gustafsson.

This album is astounding:

http://www.amazon.com/Background-Music- … amp;sr=8-1


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#42 2009-12-13 22:55:53

ABRAXAS
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Registered: 2009-01-17
Posts: 353

Re: Sabu Orimo solo shakuhachi LP

Tairaku wrote:

ABRAXAS wrote:

finding out about Mats Gustafsson.

This album is astounding:

http://www.amazon.com/Background-Music- … amp;sr=8-1

Excellent! Thanks for the heads-up!


"Shakuhachi music stirs up both gods and demons." -- Ikkyu.

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#43 2009-12-14 00:08:29

Moran from Planet X
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Re: Sabu Orimo solo shakuhachi LP

edosan wrote:

Chris Moran wrote:

1. I love the way he turns "ecclesiastics" into a verb, like 'gymnastics'. Fcking brilliant. Damn, that's good, inspired poetic writing just on its own.

Um, last time I checked, 'gymnastics' was a noun, as in 'mental gymnastics', and ecclesiastics is just a synonym for the class 'minister/priest/cleric'.

Not a particularly big stretch on that one (sorry).

I stand corrected, but remain stretched. I got excited by the irregular (or 'incorrect') use of the noun ecclesiastics which describes two or more clerics (objects, things). The way he uses ecclesiastics in his sentence is a noun describing a condition or process. It reads "and the ecclesiastics of Albert Ayler and Don Van Vliet in exactly the same way as if he said "and the gymnastics of Albert Ayler and Don Van Vliet".  That is a very original use of the word ecclesiastics.

The "of" is what excited me. Like Bill Clinton getting excited about "is."

Words give me woodys. (I'll write you a nasty email later.)

Last edited by Chris Moran (2009-12-14 00:11:58)


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#44 2009-12-14 01:03:04

Moran from Planet X
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Re: Sabu Orimo solo shakuhachi LP

Tairaku wrote:

Chris Moran wrote:

For me, defense has to be a part of being an artist -- as much as it is to be a philosopher.

Philosopher is already dealing in words. Artist or musician is working in a different medium, the stuff has to speak for itself.

That can be an answer to criticism, I agree. But I don't think it is a strong answer.

The point where philosophy, art and music all share the common ground is that they are created from concepts.

Philosophy, poetry and writing use words as a medium, just as music uses sound and notes and rhythm, just as art uses paint or clay or light. Concepts + media + process (doing, action) produces an outcome we would call philosophy, art or music.

You can avoid the process of analysis or self-analysis and claim to be an innocent, a primal and original artist if you want. 

Returning to the subject at hand:

Once you produce art and then make statements about it such as your music being Stone Age Japanese Music ...

Siwa Records wrote:

... The man himself has apparently described his approach to the instrument as "Japanese old stone age style" ...

... you are conceptualizing with words and ideas (and philosophy).

In this case, based upon the merits of Sabu Orimo's samples on the web site, in addition to the claims Siwa makes, he opens himself up to criticism of his work -- does his product stand up to his claims?

Based upon that I find his claims and the product that he has presented as questionable and weak, respectively. But that's just me, and my "opinion" if you will. And we all know about "opinions and assholes". Everybody's got one.

Neat graphic art, though.


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#45 2009-12-14 01:45:00

Tairaku 太楽
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Re: Sabu Orimo solo shakuhachi LP

Face it X. old people never like the music the teenagers are making. Even shakuhachi teenagers. wink


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#46 2009-12-14 02:42:03

Karmajampa
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Re: Sabu Orimo solo shakuhachi LP

Tairaku wrote:

Face it X. old people never like the music the teenagers are making. Even shakuhachi teenagers. wink

One may or 'may not' like it but yet still appreciates the process of the teenage gauntlet.

K.


Kia Kaha !

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#47 2009-12-14 11:06:11

edosan
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From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Sabu Orimo solo shakuhachi LP

Chris Moran wrote:

That is a very original use of the word ecclesiastics.

I won't belabor the point [could, but won't], mostly because I appreciate a woody.  smile

Last edited by edosan (2009-12-14 12:07:22)


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#48 2009-12-14 11:33:22

lowonthetotem
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Re: Sabu Orimo solo shakuhachi LP

I'll say it, it is a rather tired use of the word from the old testament.  Sorry.

Like poetry, I think that if it needs too much explanation (like using arcane words for rather mundane ideas), something is lacking in the work itself.  Also like poetry, when the work has to have a grand conceptual framework on which to rest, something is lacking in the work itself.

What I find interesting about the thread, because honestly I have no real opinion of the music/noise, is everyone's perceived need to defend their tastes.  As we should know by now, there is no accounting for them.  If you like it listen, if you don't change the channel or go for a walk.  Of course, if we all did that, what would the internet be good for?


"Turn like a wheel inside a wheel."

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#49 2009-12-15 12:37:57

Yungflutes
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Re: Sabu Orimo solo shakuhachi LP

Hi all, missed a lot of good stuff here but just thought I'd jump in.

Karmajampa wrote:

A lot of these threads feel like "Process art".

K.

Hi Kel, Yes, I agree, everything here can be process art. I find that my experience with the shakuhachi in all it's facets is about process - from blowing Sasa buki to making a flute to giving a lesson to performing. Every moment has significant weight in this chain.

Since we're on an art kick, here is a piece I saw in the early 80's that continues to have an impact on me today.
http://www.yungflutes.com/logphotos/montano_hsieh.jpg
http://www.communityarts.net/readingroo … he_rop.php

Life artists Tehching Hsieh and Linda Mondatno spent a year joined together by an eight foot rope. This work continues to challenge the notion of art. History has shown that groundbreaking art never speaks for itself right away. Furthermore, it is usually attacked by the old guards. Not until time passes can we learn to accept and appreciate how it enriches our lives. This goes for evaluating  shakuhachi. Just switch the term art for shakuhachi in these discussions and you'll see what I mean...is vintage shakuhachi...um..art out of tune? I'll bet a shakuhachi that in the future, today's A=440 - 442hz shakuhachi will be out of tune for our descendants smile

Judging shakuhachi objectively is necessary for those who need the flute to do a specific thing. In the same way that a piece of art has to fit into a specific environment for some curators. This does not belittle the art, it's a valid choice and an important one as it reveals a certain level of taste, sophistication and indoctrination.  But, do not let that hinder your appreciation for art at any price. One just has to get a glimpse of the bigger picture (history mostly). There is a lot of art in this world and many ways to enjoy it.  Picasso said something like, "When I was a child I drew like Raphael. It took me my whole life to draw like a child".

What period of Picssso are you interested in?

Namaste, Perry

Edit: Just read the Flute Prices thread. Maybe my posting should go there smile

I dig Sabu's commitment. Some cool sounds too. In a similar vein, Riley once said something like "do you want to watch someone meditating?"  For me, anything done with commitment is interesting at the least.

Last edited by Yungflutes (2009-12-15 13:07:15)


"A hot dog is not an animal." - Jet Yung

My Blog/Website on the art of shakuhachi...and parenting.
How to make an Urban Shakuhachi (PVC)

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#50 2009-12-18 14:38:22

Karmajampa
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Registered: 2006-02-12
Posts: 574
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Re: Sabu Orimo solo shakuhachi LP

We can be so obsessed with "getting it Right", we get stuck in confusion.

K.


Kia Kaha !

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