Mujitsu and Tairaku's Shakuhachi BBQ

radi0gnome wrote:

Jon wrote:

As far as choosing an instrument I think most people's best bet is one of Justin Senryu's.

OK, I hate to spoil a perfect plug for Justin, but despite his being very knowledgeable and from recordings I heard on his website knowing he's a solid player, he hasn't been at this all that long. How does he manage to get his instruments to measure up to what the more established makers produce? That's one of the reasons I prefer vintage shakuhachi. That way if there are any quirks at least you can look at the thing, see how worn the finger holes are and how many times it's been repaired and know that there was someone who liked the flute very much despite the quirks, so there's a good clue that it's your perspective that's at fault rather than the flute.   

Jon wrote:

So what a about a simple shakuhachi selling forum separate from this forum? Anyone could do it, who knows how to Or how about a strictly trading section on this forum?

The only thing I see wrong with the market place here (keep in mind I haven't tried to sell) is that there aren't enough flutes for sale.  What I like about it is that the sellers usually have some presence here on the forum and you can sort know the seller's tastes and online character, which hopefully reflects the person in real life.

BTW, it's a bit risky but there are some really good deals on Ebay right now. Higher priced flutes above a couple hundred aren't selling well and I see ones with very reasonable starting prices expire without any bids. That 1.8 7 hole shakuhachi I used in the christmas carol recording that I put on the "christmas carols" thread in the "pieces and notation" section of the forum I got for $100. There are some Ebay sellers I wouldn't trust but it's really just because they don't have a presence on the forum and I don't "know" them, not because I suspect anything. In fact, the $100 7 hole was from a totally unknown source but I thought the price was worth the risk in that case. It's a buyers market, if you have a job go for it, you can probably get a shakuhachi you would've had to pay between $1000 and $2000 three years ago for 1/3 to 1/2 the price.

You are completely ignorant, and mostly incoherent. My guess is you've never even touched one of Justin's flutes, much less played one, and couldn't evaluate its quality if you did. And yes, I am being judgemental.

edosan wrote:

You are completely ignorant, and mostly incoherent. My guess is you've never even touched one of Justin's flutes, much less played one, and couldn't evaluate its quality if you did. And yes, I am being judgemental.

Uh..., OK so you like Justin's flutes. Maybe you or someone (maybe even Justin) can alleviate the only concern I'd have about buying one of his instruments, as I'm probably not the only person looking at his flutes that was turned away after reading an interview I got to from a link here on the forum where he said he only started playing shakuhachi 5 years ago. I was floored when I read that. I don't know, maybe he started making before playing and as far as "playing" maybe he means "seriously playing". It could be the explanation, he plays very well.

Other than that, maybe it's ignorance, I haven't experienced many shakuhachi or teachers, but I feel my gravitation toward vintage instruments can be chalked up to personal preference. You happen to think a Justin flute is the the greatest out there, someone else maybe a Levenson, I happen to feel more comfortable with an older well-used Japanese flute with an unknown or insignificant hanko. Maybe I'll be seeing the same mystique in a 2009 Justin in 30 years, but for now vintage flutes are my preference.   

Geez, Ed, you helped me and so many others out so much in the beginning, what gives? I asked a question I was curious about, "How does he manage to get his instruments to measure up to what the more established makers produce?" It's an honest question, an honest answer from Justin or someone intimate with his work would probably put things in perspective. I know it's gift giving time and plugs for peoples products are popping up all over. I gave my teacher a plug that I backed up with a recording I made that came out pretty good. So now I run across a plug for someone who, unless I misread or am not remembering correctly, is relatively inexperienced and says his flutes are most people's best bet. If I should be only expressing opinions or asking questions off-line, what the heck is this forum for?

Edit --- Thanks Brian, you wrote your reply while I was typing. Chikuzen liking them says a lot, and you're right about perserverence, and then there's aways the possibility some people are more talented than others too.

Last edited by radi0gnome (2009-12-12 12:59:30)

Jon wrote:

Okay... I could learn I suppose but would I have the same gravitational pull as the stars Brian, Ken and Perry?

Seriously, I don't personally have the motivation right now to do something like that and surely there is someone more adept and eager to please then me!

Hey, you had a good idea so I gave it its own topic to put focus on it. Ideas are no good unless someone follows through on them.

Radi0knome asked "How does he (Justin) manage to get his instruments to measure up to what the more established makers produce?"

Of course talent must be factored in there somewhere.  And I think Justin spends most of his waking hours working with shakuhachi -- whether making, playing, listening to versions of the same honkyoku by five different schools, or increasing his encyclopedic knowledge of lineage histories -- which is probably not true for most of us here on this forum.  Also, through his training with various shakuhachi lineages in Japan and contacts with living masters of the instrument, Justin has access to vintage flutes by the great makers of the past, such as Kodo II or Kodo III, which he can examine and learn from at his leisure.  I think Justin has clear ideas of what he likes in a flute and has figured out how to make flutes that can produce the sounds that he has in his head; I certainly was pleasantly surprised when I first played one of his flutes.  I just wish I could afford to buy one.   Despite his seemingly short time of being involved with shakuhachi, Justin definitely knows what he is doing in terms of making or repairing the instrument.

Hi radi0gnome.

I think it is totally ok to have doubts and ask into it. Time is a very tricky little fellow. It is at the same time totally unimportant and very important!
Some people are very fast learners. Justin is certainly one very good example of this. When he had played shakuhachi for 1 month, he played as if he had played a year. When I saw his flutes last time I was in Japan, which is 2 years ago now, his flutes were very well crafted - and he can only have made shakuhachi for about 2 years at that time. Jon here on the forum is another example of a maker/player that has been a fast learner. And both these people keep on developing their skills very fast. So I am sure that the shakuhachi of both these makers are much better now as it is a while since I saw their flutes.

So time can be very unimportant when it comes to skills - in one way.

Time is very important other ways that is less tangible. The more time you have spent with something - the more alternative routes one have experienced in solving a problem. The more time spent - often the less attached you will be to seeing right and wrong as black and white.

There is something to say about time.
So I do understand you ask the question.

I am personally very unattached to time and to years of having played. This is because the density of playing and learning is so different and individual. However, I have also at times put myself in positions where time became important. When organising events like the European Shakuhachi Summer Schools, one have to take different aspects into consideration when choosing teachers. Many many people begin to teach shakuhachi way too early - I think. Therefore I received emails from people who wanted to teach at such events when their careers were too shallow. It takes calibre to stand in front of many people and teach. Either a good foundation based on time should be present or the person should be able to offer something very new and refreshing. If the latter is not present... well, then the fact that the time line is shallow becomes important.
An example is Orimo Sabu who has not played shakuhachi that many years (and is discussed a lot in the recording section here on the forum). I would consider him as a teacher or workshop-host in a Summer School because of what he is doing is new and refreshing, and can provide a new angle into shakuhachi playing. This is an example of when time doesn't matter. But was he a 'normal' Okuda student who has only played - let's say 5-6 years, I'd rather invite some senior students than him. Here time matters.

So, radi0gnome, I hope you will have the opportunity to test out flutes from the newer makers. It would be interesting to know what you think of them.
I was thinking of something in your post as well. You write you prefer vintage flutes. But as some already have pointed out, vintage flutes do not guarantee good flutes. I would - if I should set up some rule for myself - prefer to go for flutes made by established makers. And in that sense one could say that new and young shakuhachi makers are fast establishing themselves in that world. Now, again this is a flexible matter. Being an established maker may not mean that they make flutes you would like or I would like... there is scope for individual preference and the variations of that.

Anyway, I think time versus skills is something to ponder upon, so thank you for starting the subject!

Last edited by Kiku Day (2009-12-14 06:09:29)

I think it's important to remember the relativity of words like "good". Words are used in context. One flute cannot do "Everything". As has been mentioned, you do need a dependable flute when you start your shakuhachi training. Something that you can play many kinds of songs on and develop skills until you are at a place where you know which direction you will start specializing in. Another perspective that would be useful is that if you only play one type of flute (jiari or jinashi or jimori, or only a 1.8 or 2.4 etc) you are "specializing" in the experiences that the flute dictates. That's why you need but only need something dependable to start. Because you need to play a variety of song styles to develop your skills. Those are the some of the thoughts I have in mind when offering Justin's and Tom Deaver's flutes on my web sites. These flutes in the 2K~3K range allows one to do a lot of work on without specializing. These are what I consider to be the highest range in level and price of a non-specialist type of flute. And that's pushing it. They are borderline because if you are a well developed player they can be used as song specific shakuhachi (playing only certain songs on them using only the best qualities of the flute). You can also find dependable flutes in the 1K~2K range for sure, if you know how to evaluate them and look in the used flute market.  As far as what is good? I played Justin's flutes in Australia and recognized his abilities. I immediately thought the price was very reasonable and the flute very helpful for developing a player. Also, like Tairaku and Jon mentioned, I thought ahead a bit and imagined what he'll be making in the future too. I have never put "all my eggs in one maker's basket", meaning I've never just endorsed one maker but rather endorse FLUTES. I am happy to be able to support living makers, including Justin, as much as possible. We need flutes and we need various kinds of good flutes. As was also mentioned, most vintage (old) flutes are not good and will not help you develop if you play them too long. What you're buying is like a used car; you're buying a "repair job" from the beginning. That's mostly what I see on Ebay. It does get a bit ridiculous. Get something dependable as soon as you can.

Last edited by chikuzen (2009-12-18 13:50:20)