Mujitsu and Tairaku's Shakuhachi BBQ

Peter Kororo wrote:

Chris Moran wrote:

If you're having problems selling flutes these days, look at your pricing. Most people are pricing shakuhachi like it was still the Swingin' 2005s! Well, it ain't no more and my guess is that the more people who start becoming more sophisticated in their knowledge of shakuhachi are not going to be willing to continue to buy instruments at the old 'rare instrument' prices.

I did very well moving the odd shakuhachi on the old forum format, then again I was pricing my shakuhachi reasonably, not like a 'rare instrument' dealer.

Chris I would welcome a less vague statement here, including without quotation marks, always a bugbear to clarity.

Hi Peter, No clarity intended. I think most  old shakuhachi prices (rare, antiques, or kind-of-antiques or just used) are very 2005. The good ol' days. Like $600,000.oo homes in San Bernardino.

I don't think that will be a popular opinion, particularly with shakuhachi dealers and collectors, but I think its accurate.

I liked the bygone days of selling on the forum. I sold and traded stuff more quickly and simply, but it became an inordinate focus of the forum and it didn't raise any revenue for the forum. So I think it killed itself.

In any event, I think that Shakuhachi Marketplace is a fine place to put up instruments. You should try it. It's a pretty cheap thrill and it works. Give it some time and a little bit of tweaking and it will even get better. It's all in English which I think which may be limiting to some of the international membership, but even that could evolve in its own time.

Last edited by Chris Moran (2010-08-24 04:06:00)

Peter Kororo wrote:

... There's a funny thing about musical instruments, as a master player of one you have an edge in determining their quality.

I wasn't going in that direction, but since you mention this: Master players can make _any_ half-way decent flute sound very good if not great. The flute may turn out to be inappropriate for that student, or even worse misrepresented. It may take that student two, maybe three weeks to have his/her teacher evaluate the flute. The evaluation period is over and the student has a flute which is inappropriate. It's happened out there. It's just most people don't want to be regarded as Rubes so they shuffle away and hope no one notices.
    
This actually happened to me and the seller was [gasp!] NOT you. This fellow (Kyle Kamal Helou) was (at least passing himself off as) a shihan who had studied with Kinya. It was also one of Kinya's flutes!  At the time I really couldn't tell in the space of one week whether the flute was a good fit for me.  I wanted to study Yokoyama-style Dokyoku and the utaguchi was a Kinko utaguchi, but the shihan seller assurred me at least twice during that week that the flute was perfect for Dokyoku.  I was enough of a Rube to wait it out a while. Meanwhile the one week went by and the  'shihan' seller moved out of Japan and that was that.

As it turned out the flute was inspected by a promiment and highly respected American Kinko master on the east coast (a student of Yamaguchi Goro). He said the flute was good but that it was definitely made for Kinko style and not Yokoyama-style Dokyoku. I guess I should have got the point when I saw the Kinko utaguchi, but when a "shihan" tells you its a Dokyoku flute, you tend to put some weight on the judgement. Certainly not so with my case.  But as I said I was the Rube and I happened to let my self get taken advantage of by a seller and a "shihan" who would compromise his duty as a teacher to turn a buck.

Last edited by Chris Moran (2010-03-05 23:59:22)

Peter Kororo wrote:

--I haven't seen the prices of new shakuhachi come down much if at all. So why should those of older ones come down, considering, especially, that modern ones can always be replaced, but there is by definition an ever-decreasing number of vintage ones available. Certainly, at least, keepers, not the kind that you see getting passed around from one person to another here and elsewhere in "gaijin shakuhachi land," very likely IMO because the initial buyers were unable to detect their flaws at the time of purchase (but, it would seem, able to at the time of sale) to another in the same initial position.
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Are the flutes you are selling now keepers or are they part of the "gai" gene pool you refer to? This is one of the unresolvable quandaries of flute sales. If they are keepers why do people sell them? 

Peter Kororo wrote:

Sure, some people are pricing them quite a bit cheaper. But not all sellers are the same, not all can judge what they have to the same extent, not all have the same reputation (see above) regardless of how much certain people hype the modern and used flutes they have for sale. There's a funny thing about musical instruments, as a master player of one you have an edge in determining their quality. That's why I say that in fact the level of sophistication among buyers in the US and elsewhere outside Japan is quite low, and I've seen ample evidence of that (not just your comments).

Have to disagree with this Peter. I've noticed on the contrary that "master players" are not good or objective judges of shakuhachi. Because these players have developed their own style and practice they gravitate towards flutes that suit their style. I've had great players come over and try my best flutes and not even be able to get a sound out of them. This is simply because they are much different than whatever they are used to. It can not be stressed enough that adaptability and great musicianship are not always the same thing. Some great players might only be able to play one shakuhachi well.

Another syndrome which is exemplified by the craze for Miura Ryuho flutes is the desire to have flutes that "do" things a certain way rather than "sound" a certain way. When the objective is to play a certain repertoire as easily and accurately as possible and that is the primary consideration the master players will recommend those flutes over flutes that may be equally good or superior. And that's their prerogative as teachers attempting to impart their style to the students. However it doesn't mean they're good judges of shakuhachi in general or the shakuhachi that play other styles.

There is no such thing as a "master player" who has mastered everything. You have said of yourself that you do not know how to play or judge long jinashi. Someone looking for one (even one of your students) might ask somebody who specializes in that for their opinion.

As far as the racist comments about non-Japanese players, there are a miniscule number of players outside of Japan compared to in Japan. There should be a lot more sophisticated people in Japan than outside. But the real story is on the individual level. What are people's individual relationships with shakuhachi and what do they know? I would posit that the level of knowledge inside Japan is very low as well, based on the white-bread shakuhachi that are in demand there. There are some interesting individuals there but the basic trends are mundane. The shakuhachi world inside and outside Japan is boring..........but there can be bright lights anywhere.

A counter argument could be made that Western shakuhachi is more sophisticated (in scope at least) than Japanese. At least on a per capita basis. Because in Japan the majority of players are Tozan and the majority of flutes are ordinary Tozan jiari. Whereas in the West many styles are represented and the variety of flutes used is much more balanced. Emphasis on honkyoku in the West may or may not be considered more sophisticated but it's far more prevalent in the West than in Japan. That translates to a greater demand (again per capita) for honkyoku flutes.  In the end the "Japan is better and I'm better because I hang out there" argument is very tiresome. Many of us have no desire to live in Japan, nor feel the need to seek approval from Japanese people to validate our shakuhachi existence. Why even bother with it if not being Japanese precludes us from having valid shakuhachi practices?

Peter Kororo wrote:

Recently a number of my vintage instruments were on display for sale alongside modern ones, with the markdowns on both being pretty equivalent from a few years ago, like 20% +/- and numerous players had days to sample them all, none of the sellers spent any more time than the others selling their flutes (I had other priorities myself). In the end the only sales that happened were of my vintage flutes. Just one more example, but I for one put more stock in experience than theory, no matter how well-crafted or confidently presented the latter is.
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Are you talking about WSF 2008 here? Not many flutes were sold there by anybody but several people sold flutes. Not only you......where did you get that idea? I think everybody at that table sold something.

Peter Kororo wrote:

There's more to say but that might get you started if you choose to mull those points over a bit. I consider my providing flutes with the superior tone, variety of tone and "character," and usually superior bamboo of older shakuhachi part of my contribution to raising the level of shakuhachi playing abroad, and especially in the context of what I see as often overpriced modern instruments, don't mind making some profit for my expertise and efforts in that regard. So I hope that if you don't, others might take my words on this topic as sincere and not just motivated by a money-making agenda.

Whenever somebody is selling flutes their opinion is biased. First it's biased by their personal preferences, degree of knowledge and the kind of music they play. Second it's biased by the fact that they're trying to sell you something. You also have to factor in the degree of desperation or need the seller has. Some people selling flutes are really eager to sell others don't care whether or not they make the sale. 

The statement about overpriced modern instruments..............all shakuhachi are "overpriced". For a hunk of bamboo with 5 holes it's ridiculous. In the end there is the universal law of supply and demand. That is called a "law" because unlike opinions it's objective. If people think it's worth it they'll pay. If you can find something better for less go for it. I can only think of one or two modern makers whose flutes are obviously overpriced and that's because they are associated with ryu or teachers who strongly encourage their students to use those instruments and get a cut out of it. It's disingenuous to imply that because you (or I) prefer vintage flutes that modern ones are overpriced. Apples and oranges, because most modern flutes are not really intended to do the same things the vintage ones were designed to do.

Jam wrote:

It's christmas soon! Can't we all just get along until next year? Maybe a "Christmas Truce" like in the first world war?

NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We all get along, just having a little chat here! Hey both X. and I have bought flutes from Peter in the last year or so!

jamesnyman wrote:

. If I had spent $5k on lessons and a Yuu, I am certain I would be a better player. On the other hand, I am not certain I would enjoy playing the shakuhachi more than i do today. I truly enjoy playing every single day, and despite my ineptitude, find much solace in doing so.

Well said James. Everybody is responsible for their own practice. What it means to them is more important that whether or not it meets others expectations. People should respect the diversity of practice rather than insisting that whatever they are doing is the only way.

Tairaku wrote:

Peter Kororo wrote:

Sure, some people are pricing them quite a bit cheaper. But not all sellers are the same, not all can judge what they have to the same extent, not all have the same reputation (see above) regardless of how much certain people hype the modern and used flutes they have for sale. There's a funny thing about musical instruments, as a master player of one you have an edge in determining their quality. That's why I say that in fact the level of sophistication among buyers in the US and elsewhere outside Japan is quite low, and I've seen ample evidence of that (not just your comments).

Have to disagree with this Peter. I've noticed on the contrary that "master players" are not good or objective judges of shakuhachi. Because these players have developed their own style and practice they gravitate towards flutes that suit their style. I've had great players come over and try my best flutes and not even be able to get a sound out of them. This is simply because they are much different than whatever they are used to. It can not be stressed enough that adaptability and great musicianship are not always the same thing. Some great players might only be able to play one shakuhachi well.

Hi Brian
I totally agree with you. I make in a number of styles, so sometimes people will come to try out my instruments and I can generally tell just by what school they are from, which ones they will like. Often the favorite for one school is useless, or, as you have said even unplayable, for another school.

I have seen this with vintage instruments too. I have some outstanding jiari from the best makers which bare absolutely no interest for some of my "jinashi" friends. And excellant Edo jinashi which they regard as top quality, which some "jiari" friends might regard as rubbish. Even among jiari or jinashi, depending on the people and their ability to play specific jinashi or jiari styles, what they think of as "great" or not really varies. Few people can really appreciate/understand the great flutes of a wide range of styles.

The reason for this is sometimes down to taste. People do of course have preferences. But often it is because the people can't play the instruments well. Someone who always plays fat long jinashi may well be useless at playing a 250 year old jinashi. These instruments are short (e.g. 1.8) and thin. In the right hands they (the good ones) can be amazing. But in the wrong hands it is impossible to tell a good one from a bad one. Since the playing style and the instruments co-exist in dependence on each other, it's not surprising that players of one school have trouble playing instruments of a school whose instruments are much different from their own. The playing style and the instrument are two halves of one whole, so they have to fit together. So it takes great flexibility and sensitivity on the part of the player to be able to play well different styles of instrument. Studying/playing a wide variety of genres, subgenres and styles certainly helps. Brian I expect your broad musical tastes has a lot to do with your broad instrument tastes.

Last edited by Justin (2009-12-20 23:35:20)

Nice read! I think this thread is mostly about good critique and different views on good, better and best flutes (and pricing) Fortunately there is no one best flute and there are several options within playing the shakuhachi. Maybe there are best flutes per style, but even then it is very personal and subjective. Within those parameters there are some more objective ones... Like: tone color, richness, evenness, tuning etcetera who might make up for the price?

Also...


At the end... let's allow everyone value his own instruments...

If one want (not) to sell a flute for $6000, let he stay with it until he dies and the flute get in the hands of people who do not play and do not know even half of it's worth... then they will trade it for a couple of comom river stones...


If other thinks that it is in agreement with the time we are living, not be attached to instruments that are in a closet, without being played, and want to kindly let them go with nice prices to others who don't have all the 2500 to buy one like this, great! I think that's a good way to proceed too!

Anyway, I agree that  the prices that some people ask for some shakuhachi are a bit exagerating....

Is that the same player who would scratch a competitor's unattended  flute with his penknife to win and reap the greater acclaim?  Stir up some sheet...paper certifications and a yen for such authority.

Tairaku wrote:

What does this mean?

Yeah. Good question.

Can someone explain perhaps what is the difference in good vintage compared to good modern flutes? Or at least give their personal opinions about them

Bas Nijenhuis wrote:

Can someone explain perhaps what is the difference in good vintage compared to good modern flutes? Or at least give their personal opinions about them

Firstly there are many kinds of both. Good vintage are the extreme minority within the "vintage" category, as most were cheaply made and cheaply sold. But we can ignore them as you are asking only about good ones. Within that there are, broadly speaking, 20th century and pre-20th century. The great majority of the ones you are likely to come across are 20th century. So it makes sense to answer mostly about them.

Araki Chikuo (Araki Kodo II) was a vital force in the shakuhachi world from the end of the Edo period through the Meiji period. He was the head of the Kinko-ryu, but more than that, he helped make sure shakuhachi was not totally banned by the same government that had closed the Fuke temples bringing the end to the long komuso tradition. Through his work shakuhachi playing in the traditional ensemble music such as nagauta and jiuta became very popular. As a master shakuhachi maker he worked to make the instrument better suited to this ensemble music. Shakuhachi had already been playing ensemble music possibly since the very beginning of it's history, but Chikuo made certain innovations such as bringing the tuning closer to the shamisen/vocal tuning, and subtle ways of balancing the tone. His instruments are regarded today by many (ensemble players and honkyoku players alike) as being the very best.

His students further developed some of Chikuo's innovations, and created what is now know as "jinuri" or "jiari" shakuhachi, the two most famous students being Miura Kindo, and his son and heir Araki Kodo III. Their instruments are also the favourite of many players. Another student who became famous especially for his work publishing notation, was Kawase Junsuke. Some of Kawase's students also became famous makers, such as Inoue Shigemi, Yamaguchi Shiro and Aoki Reibo.

Note that all of the above makers were also master players. This is something which is uncommon today.

Jinuri making also spread to Tozan-ryu. I do not know well about the history or changing trends of Tozan-ryu instruments. Perhaps someone else can fill us in on that.

So now we come to the question of what is the difference between makers such as these, and modern instruments. The shakuhachi of each of the above makers (and of course there were other good makers too) are different. But broadly speaking, there seems to be a trend for modern instruments to be loud. To those who love the older shakuhachi of these great Kinko-ryu makers, the complaint is often that modern instruments tend to be loud and boring. That the tone colour is "less interesting". I tend to agree with this, and was personally drawn by my ears increasingly towards Araki-ha instruments for their superior tone.

On the other side, there are professional players who want instruments which can play as loud as possible, for perhaps playing with a large ensemble (rather than the traditional small ensemble) or to a large concert hall. They will sometimes favor a modern instrument due to the volume. That does not mean any-old modern shakuhachi. That means a top quality modern shakuhachi. And, I have heard such performers even admit that they are not satisfied with the tone colour, and may even have the opportunity of playing a nicer sounding instrument, but do not because of the reduced volume and the next issue which is; stability. Some good "vintage" shakuhachi are somewhat difficult to control (some very difficult). Some notes are a little unstable and may take effort and skill to control them. Don't get this confused with a bad shakuhachi. Bad shakuhachi very often have stability problems. The difference is, both are difficult but the bad one is just bad! The good one actually has something great there to find. And then, some good ones are just easy to play from the start too.

And the last problem is tuning. Vintage shakuhachi, compared to modern tuning, generally have a sharp "chi", many also have, to varying degrees, a flat "tsu", and there may be other notes different too. Also there are sometimes tuning issues between the octaves. These are far more common on vintage shakuhachi (even great ones) than on top quality modern shakuhachi.

So the common complaints against vintage shakuhachi compared to modern ones, and why they are not commonly used by modern professionals, are:
Out of tune
Not loud enough
Difficult to play/control

Coming back to the pro-vintage position, the above might be seen as "mechanical", or, that if an instrument can merely be loud, easy and in tune, is it a musical instrument, or a machine? And what I have heard often is that for a maker to really produce great instruments, they should be great shakuhachi musicians, as they were when the top makers were the top players.

Having said all of this, there are also some modern makers who make in a style that would fit, in this black and white image, more into the "vintage" category. These are shakuhachi which are made with intention closer to that of the older makers. I would count myself in this group, in terms of my intention for tone colour, although my attention to tuning and techniques will depend on the intended repertoire.