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Tube of delight!

#26 2009-12-22 14:19:46

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3226
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Re: ¿Bugbear?

Justin's answer is clear. Here is another good article on the subject from John Singer. John has brought more good vintage shakuhachi to the West than anyone else and really knows what he's talking about particularly concerning Kinko, Myoan and Edo period flutes.

http://zenflute.com/articles.html

But in the end writing and talking about it doesn't prove anything other than that a particular individual likes one kind of flute or another. You have to play the flutes!


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#27 2009-12-23 01:14:43

Peter Kororo
Member
Registered: 2008-06-21
Posts: 82
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Re: ¿Bugbear?

A lot to respond to, rather than muck up my comments with misplaced quote html and whatnot I'll just put in people's names and their remarks in quotations....hope that works and I don't annoy anyone too much with that.

So,

Brian wrote:

"Are the flutes you are selling now keepers or are they part of the "gai" gene pool you refer to?  This is one of the unresolvable quandaries of flute sales. If they are keepers why do people sell them? "

I made the point that in fact I don't see hardly any of mine up for sale again, vs. seeing quite a few acquired elsewhere. Of course all flutes being resold don't appear here.

I wrote:

"That's why I say that in fact the level of sophistication among buyers in the US and elsewhere outside Japan is quite low, and I've seen ample evidence of that (not just your comments)."

First, I'll add that "quite low" is a generalization I regret.

Brian responded:
"Have to disagree with this Peter. I've noticed on the contrary that "master players" are not good or objective judges of shakuhachi. Because these players have developed their own style and practice they gravitate towards flutes that suit their style. I've had great players come over and try my best flutes and not even be able to get a sound out of them. This is simply because they are much different than whatever they are used to. It can not be stressed enough that adaptability and great musicianship are not always the same thing. Some great players might only be able to play one shakuhachi well."

I get your point, it's valid, and mine wasn't well made because I didn't clarify what I meant. I should have said "master flute tester" for the very reason that I and some other people are aware of these various differences and can try different approaches to playing a vintage flute. For example as you know a fair amount of older flutes don't play with a lot of volume unless you know how to play them,  meaning trying various embouchures. Every maker had a somewhat different embouchure so you have to try a few. I blow every flute I try as loudly as I can, and that's loud, to see if it will take that amount of air. If it doesn't it doesn't mean it's not "good enough," just that it's not that type of shakuhachi. To digress a bit, some "sweeter" flutes as they're sometimes called a preferable for certain players. In any case, I'll have to leave it that I respectfully disagree with your disagreement in that while what you wrote is true about some great players--like one I know who only blows really loudly and if the flute isn't loud enough he dismisses it--it's not necessarily true, and that to me is the main point.

To continue:

Brian wrote:

"Another syndrome which is exemplified by the craze for Miura Ryuho flutes is the desire to have flutes that "do" things a certain way rather than "sound" a certain way. When the objective is to play a certain repertoire as easily and accurately as possible and that is the primary consideration the master players will recommend those flutes over flutes that may be equally good or superior. And that's their prerogative as teachers attempting to impart their style to the students. However it doesn't mean they're good judges of shakuhachi in general or the shakuhachi that play other styles. "

Agreed here. His flutes are really easy to play, and IMO the tone is also superior to any other modern flute I've tried--I'd like to find other makers I'd like as much. Haven't yet.

Brian wrote:

"There is no such thing as a "master player" who has mastered everything. You have said of yourself that you do not know how to play or judge long jinashi. Someone looking for one (even one of your students) might ask somebody who specializes in that for their opinion."

I don't think I said I can't judge them, just not like some other people, like yourself, and I was referring mostly to Houchiku (sp?) and the Taimu. Otherwise I completely agree. But I'm a better judge now than two years ago having had the chance to play a lot of them since then.

Brian wrote:

"As far as the racist comments about non-Japanese players, there are a miniscule number of players outside of Japan compared to in Japan. There should be a lot more sophisticated people in Japan than outside. But the real story is on the individual level. What are people's individual relationships with shakuhachi and what do they know? I would posit that the level of knowledge inside Japan is very low as well, based on the white-bread shakuhachi that are in demand there. There are some interesting individuals there but the basic trends are mundane. The shakuhachi world inside and outside Japan is boring..........but there can be bright lights anywhere."

First, I disagree I made a racist comment; that's one based on skin color, ethnicity, i.e. something superficial. Brian, I''ve spent 8+ years here now over the last 20, not a real long time, but all focused on shakuhachi and have seen myself--perhaps heard is better--the differences. Also, much more senior players than I--my teachers--have said the same thing. And while it's true that shakuhachi in Japan is dominated by Tozan-ryu, which is what you term whitebread, there are enough players still who have a very non-mundane level of expertise and who share that with us gaijin that you can't compare the two. Also, the level of aggrandizement in the non-Japanese world is pretty high, that's something I hear ALL THE TIME here from many people.

"A counter argument could be made that Western shakuhachi is more sophisticated (in scope at least) than Japanese. At least on a per capita basis. Because in Japan the majority of players are Tozan and the majority of flutes are ordinary Tozan jiari. "

True to an extent but not many Westerners have learned honkyoku very well…the emphasis is often on quantity than quality, and the hardest part, development of ma, is helped a lot by being submerged in if not Japanese than at least Asian societies….I could go into details but then I might just invite more accusations of being racist. Regardless it's something I believe strongly from going back and forth between Asia and the West for 25 years now.

"Whereas in the West many styles are represented and the variety of flutes used is much more balanced."

Well I'm trying to tip that balance in favor of traditionally-made flutes, because whether they have a Tozan or Kinko insert most modern shakuhachi are essentially Tozan flutes….a bit of an over-simplification but they've been made to produce a smaller range of sounds more easily. Not just bore shape, but the mouthpiece construction with is a big factor. And in my experience selling flutes come back because the players have developed a tight embouchure then decide the flutes' not good enough. You experience my be different but I can only speak from mine, often rather beginning players have felt they could judge my flutes better than I. So perhaps saying the level is low is too unkind, but...

"Emphasis on honkyoku in the West may or may not be considered more sophisticated but it's far more prevalent in the West than in Japan. "

Again I'd respond quality vs. quantity.

"In the end the "Japan is better and I'm better because I hang out there" argument is very tiresome."

When I was doing African music the best players had spent time learning in Africa and I find the same with shakuhachi. So I stand by my statement, and since you haven't lived here, how would you counter it with real-life examples? All the best players I know spent serious time here.

Brian wrote:

"Are you talking about WSF 2008 here? Not many flutes were sold there by anybody but several people sold flutes. Not only you......where did you get that idea? I think everybody at that table sold something."

No, more recent than that.  I wasn't being more specific because friends of mine were also selling and I didn't want to impugn their flutes.

Brian wrote:

"Whenever somebody is selling flutes their opinion is biased. First it's biased by their personal preferences, degree of knowledge and the kind of music they play. Second it's biased by the fact that they're trying to sell you something. You also have to factor in the degree of desperation or need the seller has. Some people selling flutes are really eager to sell others don't care whether or not they make the sale. "

First, it depends on the seller…I'm sure you'll think I'm being self-serving again, but it's a fact I don't enter into a flute sale with the intention of unloading what I can at the highest price possible.

Second, I disagree that preference, taste, etc are that important, in my case at least. For example, if someone with a small sound, who will probably stay that way, decides they want a flute that takes some push to sound it's best, I will suggest they get a smaller-bored "sweeter" flute. Or vice versa.

Third, IMO it's not knowledge, but skill that matters most, and that takes time and energy to develop, so it's not a level playing field or just matter of opinion.

And I rarely if ever get desperate, just speaking personally.

"The statement about overpriced modern instruments..............all shakuhachi are "overpriced". For a hunk of bamboo with 5 holes it's ridiculous."

In fact I think the best vintage shakuhachi are underpriced. That's also an opinion one hears here in Japan at least.

"In the end there is the universal law of supply and demand. That is called a "law" because unlike opinions it's objective."

But the demand depends on people's opinions of certain makers and/or flutes, and those opinions are shaped by certain people, who as you've said may have other agendas shaping the opinions they put out there. So it's not a law like the law of gravity.

"If people think it's worth it they'll pay."

I agree, it's partially a matter of opinion. When selling a flute, I'll let some go for what ever price makes me say "okay" rather than "I'd rather have the flute than that amount of money."

"I can only think of one or two modern makers whose flutes are obviously overpriced and that's because they are associated with ryu or teachers who strongly encourage their students to use those instruments and get a cut out of it."

Agreed.

"It's disingenuous to imply that because you (or I) prefer vintage flutes that modern ones are overpriced."

No it's not because, first, it's my honest opinion, and second because for me it's not a matter of preference. I think vintage ones are better. A few times now you've countered that claim by saying "sure we all like vintage flutes better" or something to that effect, but that's your opinon, not mine. I think they're a better tool to use in playing honkyoku, and as you said that's what most Westerners are interested in. For modern music, I agree modern shakuhachi can often be better, and believe it or not I ask buyers that and tell them the same opinion.

Look folks, I can get modern shakuhachi from any number of good modern makers and mark them up suitably; I don't. I'm not claiming to know the truth, but I've reached a point where I'm very confident in my opinion on vintage shakuhachi and am presenting it with that confidence. Brian you might want to consider whether it's what I'm saying or the confidence with which I'm saying it that you react to.

"Apples and oranges, because most modern flutes are not really intended to do the same things the vintage ones were designed to do."

I think there were, but fail at it because they don't have the same quality. But you and I can argue that point all day to no real benefit.


Justin wrote:

"Hi Brian
I totally agree with you. I make in a number of styles, so sometimes people will come to try out my instruments and I can generally tell just by what school they are from, which ones they will like. Often the favorite for one school is useless, or, as you have said even unplayable, for another school."
I think this is an exxageration of Brian's point, and not a response to mine.

"I have seen this with vintage instruments too. …. Few people can really appreciate/understand the great flutes of a wide range of styles."

Agreed, few, that's why it's good to listen to such people.
"Someone who always plays fat long jinashi may well be useless at playing a 250 year old jinashi. These instruments are short (e.g. 1.8) and thin. In the right hands they (the good ones) can be amazing. But in the wrong hands it is impossible to tell a good one from a bad one."
So buyers should find someone reliable and trust their assessment. It's not easy, so depends on reputation.
"Since the playing style and the instruments co-exist in dependence on each other, it's not surprising that players of one school have trouble playing instruments of a school whose instruments are much different from their own. The playing style and the instrument are two halves of one whole, so they have to fit together. So it takes great flexibility and sensitivity on the part of the player to be able to play well different styles of instrument. Studying/playing a wide variety of genres, subgenres and styles certainly helps. Brian I expect your broad musical tastes has a lot to do with your broad instrument tastes."

I think you're contrasting Brian with me, which indicates merely that you have a misperception of what I do, what I play. I have three 1.8s alone that I use for different types of music. MyYamazaki Chikuin is in tune perfectly, but it has TOO MUCH tonal range for modern music, it's distracting. And I'd think it's mistaken to use the extreme words--impossible, useless, etc. It's not such an extreme situation.

Kees wrote:

"I hope I will live to see the day when serious arguments (including sound) are presented, instead of mere anecdotes, why selected 'vintage' flutes are more desirable or 'better' than just about any and all instruments made during the last few decades."
Well I'm not just talking through my you-know-what. Sound samples are hard because the recording equipment and room etc all affect the sound. But---you'll have to take my word for it for now at least--I've spent countless hours playing these flutes and the tone differences vintage/modern (talking good flutes now in both cases) are obvious.
"Once upon a time one of the very most highly regarded living shakuhachi players was asked if he played older vintage flutes and his literal brief answer was:  'of course not'.""

Okay, and a number of great players I know disagree stongly with that. Others agree. I disagree, you agree. That's all this is about. I'm presenting my points in an effort to educate.

Again, I don't say vintage flutes give a "better shakuhachi experience" to put it another way because I sell them, I sell them because I think they give a better experience.

It would certainly be easier for me to sell modern ones because then I wouldn't end up spending the good part of a sunny afternoon defending one of my infrequent posts to this forum!

And let me add that I'm happy to debate with knowledgeable people writing exactly what they think/feel (and I"m not saying that's not the case here to some extent) but, speaking of tiresome, responding to things directed at me that are motivated by other reason is just that. Tiresome.

Justin wrote:

"fouw wrote:
I hope I will live to see the day when serious arguments (including sound) are presented, instead of mere anecdotes, why selected 'vintage' flutes are more desirable or 'better' than just about any and all instruments made during the last few decades."

"This is a very fair statement. This claim is most likely to come from people who sell vintage instruments. And that raises suspicion in me."

See my statement just above--I doubt it will allay your suspicions but perhaps it should.

" There is no need really for a modern-shakuhachi dealer. Modern shakuhachi are generally sold through the teachers, and this is good, as a good teacher will choose shakuhachi makers he knows are good for his student's needs."

No always the case in my experience.

"So someone who wants to make business from selling "used"/vintage shakuhachi is limited to that category - used/vintage shakuhachi."

Not true as I pointed out above--after you wrote this of course.


"So if the same person then says vintage shakuhachi are better because they are vintage, this raises my suspicions."

I think you mean "because they are selling vintage flutes," otherwise you're suspecting a tautology you just wrote!

"A statement like "the bamboo available then was so different from what is available now" seems quite convenient."

Convenient or not it happens to be true, this statement of yours is based on ignorance of bamboo. I would suppose wikipedia has sufficient information.

I just got a lead on some 40-50 y.o. culms, I told two makers I know about it and they were falling over themselves to acquire this bamboo. Why do you think that is?

"It gives those vintage shakuhachi something which is not obtainable from the modern shakuhachi for sale from other sources. I'm not saying it is untrue."

Well are you or aren't you? Better to state than insinuate.

"But in a country with countless millions of bamboos growing as it has for thousands of years, this seems an intriguing claim."

Again, look up "bamboo flowering Japan 1960s" or something like that, I've not the patience to google around to allay your suspicions based on……


"But I firmly believe that none of these styles are impossible to be made today. It merely takes sufficient understanding, sufficient skill, and correct materials. Although it may take years to gather all of these, they are all available."

Agreed, and one of my main points has always been that a major deficiency of modern shakuhachi is that they have been made with expediency in mind, thus using the same profile rather than working the bamboo, or at least being sensitive to the qualities of each piece of bamboo used, and using bamboo that, for example, has been dried quickly, and so on. So you're making one of my main points here.

"…it is the general opinion of shakuhachi experts and lovers here in Japan that you ought not alter them! This is often done simply because a good shakuhachi doesn't play the way the owner wants it to play. Well, sometimes that is indeed the fault of the shakuhachi, but, sometimes it is simply because the shakuhachi was not made to play that way. One typical example is that honking sound that some people make, and it drives shakuhachi collectors up the wall [for non-native English speakers, this means, makes them pissed off!] That is not what most shakuhachi were designed to do! "

I think there are subtleties here you're missing. To choose one, I've found, surmiesed, and then confirmed with makers here that there's a balance between, first, otsu-ro and re, and it would appear the latter was considered more important by makers back when….so some older flutes have tricky ros. I've seen a number at a workshop where they're "fixed" (quotes because I don't agree with it in most cases either) and noticed how stabilizing ro flattens out the tone…that's one thing about modern flutes I don't like….maybe the main thing. Second, there's a balance between that stability and the amount of tone and/or overtones on every note….you don't want too much instability, but some is good for tone. My own keepers have otsu re's that are always "threatening" to jump to kan re, whereas most modern flutes (the vast majority I've tried) have very stable otsu-res that have an unpleasant honking sound to them, and one student of mine with a background in acoustics and recording said these modern flutes have a narrow frequency range, so the tone is thin so to speak, whereas what is most readily noticeable about vintage flutes is the rounder, more pleasant tone in the otsu range.

To me the tone is most of the soul of expression with honkyoku (of course playing the techniques well and good ma is essential as well), the tone is what leads me along a particular sound-path in the piece, and will influence not just the ma, but the pitch changes, etc, many other things.

Also, you have to consider the mere fact that a flute which you like the sound of you will play more, and thus improve your playing. One Western player who's been playing for decades, but never played great vintage flutes, emailed me recently saying "I had a chance to play a couple of great older flutes, I couldn't put them down, now I get it."

Brian wrote:

"Maybe you could check out the recordings John Singer and Satoshi Shimura have put out using Edo flutes. Then compare them with some of the modern players. That might give you an idea. Not to "prove" one is better but you'd definitely hear a difference in tone."

I'd second that….and for a while I've been thinking to ask players to send me their best modern flutes so that I can record them side-by-side with vintage ones, then it won't be apples-and-oranges. First I need to settle down again, then I'd be happy to do that.

Kees wrote:

That is exactly what Kororo has been doing here and elsewhere on the forum and it is what I inquired about because I think it is not very convincing. But I will shut up now because I don't really care. I have both kinds and I love 'em all, old, recent, the ones with Ji as much as the ones without."
Sorry that all my words have been unconvincing. Perhaps it is I who should shut up at least at this time/place. Either I haven't written things well, as I rush these posts out, or others wilfully or not misinterpret what I'm saying.

Maybe I should just put it on my website then you can read it and laugh or weep as you wish.

Last edited by Peter Kororo (2009-12-24 02:36:59)


“Many people come, looking, looking. Some people come, see.”
                        —Nepalese saying

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#28 2009-12-23 01:40:50

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: ¿Bugbear?

Whew!


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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#29 2009-12-23 03:02:56

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: ¿Bugbear?

Peter Kororo wrote:

Justin wrote:

"So if the same person then says vintage shakuhachi are better because they are vintage, this raises my suspicions."

I think you mean "because they are selling vintage flutes," otherwise you're suspecting a tautology you just wrote!

No, I mean what I said. To clarify, if someone is economically limited to selling only or mainly vintage instruments, and then claims that vintage instruments are better because they are vintage (which, by definition, non-vintage cannot be, therefore raising the appeal of their wares), this raises my suspicions. This is not to say that the person does not mean what they say, necessarily.

Peter Kororo wrote:

"A statement like "the bamboo available then was so different from what is available now" seems quite convenient."

Convenient or not it happens to be true, this statement of yours is based on ignorance. Check into it.

I have. And I have a large stock of vintage bamboo, as well as recently harvested bamboo.

Peter Kororo wrote:

You know I just got a lead on some 40-50 y.o. culms, I told two makers I know about it and they were falling over themselves to acquire this bamboo. Why do you think that is?

Colour. Some makers feel the colour of bamboo harvested too recently is too white. That is, their customers feel it is too white. In fact I know a famous and top class modern maker who prefers older bamboo for exactly this reason, and not at all for reasons of "better sound from older bamboo that doesn't exist anymore".

Peter Kororo wrote:

"It gives those vintage shakuhachi something which is not obtainable from the modern shakuhachi for sale from other sources. I'm not saying it is untrue."

Well are you or aren't you? Better to state than insinuate.

No, I'm not. I'm merely sharing my observations, and questions these observations have raised. This may be more useful than any personal opinions I have come to myself.

Peter Kororo wrote:

"But in a country with countless millions of bamboos growing as it has for thousands of years, this seems an intriguing claim."

Again, look up "bamboo flowering Japan 1960s" or something like that, I've not the patience to google around to allay your suspicions based on……

"..." what? Experience with old and new stock? Or conversations with makers who harvested for the last 50 years? Your flowering 60's idea sounds intriguing. I haven't said you're wrong. Just, sounds rather intriguing if I think about it carefully. So what are you saying, that the bamboo flowered in the 60's and that ever since then the bamboo has been of inferior quality?! (That discounts your 40 year old culms then).

I'll share something that may help explain some of what you might be talking about. Most bamboo today being made into shakuhachi, is harvested not by makers but by professional shakuhachi harvesters. Now I have both vintage stock several decades old, and also stock which I have harvested myself. However, before I had these I had to buy bamboo from harvesters, along with some other professional maker friends. This is when I realised that much of the bamboo for sale is very low quality, and I was shocked to see it sold to the professional market. 80 years ago when people like Miura Kindo were making, the market was much larger, so I'm sure high quality bamboo was more readily available. Nowadays the market is far smaller, so, naturally it is harder to find sources for good bamboo. In the end some of the best bamboo will be harvested by those makers who are particular enough to go looking themselves for exactly the bamboo they want. The bamboo is still there, as you agree below:

Peter Kororo wrote:

"But I firmly believe that none of these styles are impossible to be made today. It merely takes sufficient understanding, sufficient skill, and correct materials. Although it may take years to gather all of these, they are all available."

Agreed

Peter Kororo wrote:

one of my main points has always been that a major deficiency of modern shakuhachi is that they have been made with expediency in mind, thus using the same profile rather than working the bamboo, or at least being sensitive to the qualities of each piece of bamboo used

Agreed. This goes back many decades actually, but perhaps especially so in modern times. This seems to be in line with perhaps more Western, and almost more "automatized" manufacture, don't you think? I get an image of "a tool for a purpose", rather than a work of art for performance of exquisite music. Rather mechanical, as I mentioned above in response to the modern vs vintage question.

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#30 2009-12-23 07:40:00

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: ¿Bugbear?

Chris Moran wrote:

Btw, I prefer older 1.8 "D" shakuhachi with the sharper Chi and flat Tsu and what have you, within reasonable parameters of course. I can't find anyone making 1.8 "D" shakuhachi in this day and age who use the older Japanese intervals that have been abandoned in favor of "modern" Western tuning.

Hi Chris
The old tuning is almost never used because there are almost no teachers teaching music using the old tuning. One notable exception I have come across is my own teacher Iwata Seien. For Seien-ryu honkyoku the older tuning is much more suitable, and indeed when I started studying with him I was using an Edo period Kinko-ryu 2.0 rather than my own instruments which were tuned in the modern way and therefore sounded very wrong. Iwata-sensei is quite insistent that Seien-ryu honkyoku should be played on old Seien-ryu/Fudaiji style instruments. My Kinko shakuhachi worked well as the style was close, but naturally I have an interest in making this style, and was encouraged to by my teacher. He has been extremely kind in letting my spend time playing his valuable Seien-ryu instruments. In particular I studied the Seien-ryu master-shakuhachi "Matsukaze", which has been used by all of the iemotos, bringing my own shakuhachi as I was working on them, to continually refine and compare them so that now I use my own Seien-ryu instruments in my lessons with Iwata-sensei and when performing Seien-ryu honkyoku.

As for the lower pitch of tsu, this varies (some old shakuhachi have tsu very near modern tsu, some considerably lower), but minyou players have often liked a particularly low tsu. A friend of mine used to make tsu lower when making for minyou customers.

So there are some of us out here who are willing to make in more than one tuning. It obviously helps if the maker is familiar with the style/genre the customer will play. I would take a little more convincing to make a shakuhachi in Arabic tuning, for example!

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#31 2009-12-23 14:20:29

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: ¿Bugbear?

By all means Chris, enjoy you're well deserved rest. Your work here is done.


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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#32 2009-12-23 16:49:38

Musgo da Pedra
Member
From: South of Brazil
Registered: 2007-12-02
Posts: 332
Website

Re: ¿Bugbear?

Justin wrote:

Chris Moran wrote:

Btw, I prefer older 1.8 "D" shakuhachi with the sharper Chi and flat Tsu and what have you, within reasonable parameters of course. I can't find anyone making 1.8 "D" shakuhachi in this day and age who use the older Japanese intervals that have been abandoned in favor of "modern" Western tuning.

Hi Chris
The old tuning is almost never used because there are almost no teachers teaching music using the old tuning. One notable exception I have come across is my own teacher Iwata Seien. For Seien-ryu honkyoku the older tuning is much more suitable, and indeed when I started studying with him I was using an Edo period Kinko-ryu 2.0 rather than my own instruments which were tuned in the modern way and therefore sounded very wrong. Iwata-sensei is quite insistent that Seien-ryu honkyoku should be played on old Seien-ryu/Fudaiji style instruments. My Kinko shakuhachi worked well as the style was close, but naturally I have an interest in making this style, and was encouraged to by my teacher. He has been extremely kind in letting my spend time playing his valuable Seien-ryu instruments. In particular I studied the Seien-ryu master-shakuhachi "Matsukaze", which has been used by all of the iemotos, bringing my own shakuhachi as I was working on them, to continually refine and compare them so that now I use my own Seien-ryu instruments in my lessons with Iwata-sensei and when performing Seien-ryu honkyoku.

As for the lower pitch of tsu, this varies (some old shakuhachi have tsu very near modern tsu, some considerably lower), but minyou players have often liked a particularly low tsu. A friend of mine used to make tsu lower when making for minyou customers.

So there are some of us out here who are willing to make in more than one tuning. It obviously helps if the maker is familiar with the style/genre the customer will play. I would take a little more convincing to make a shakuhachi in Arabic tuning, for example!

As a friend who  plays classical guitar and is very conservative and sensitive in all ways would say about the loss of the old tunings: "Sad...sad"...

Old tuning is nice... more than nice... it shows diferent ways in meditation music...in meditation...in music...in many ways...


The western tuning is good, and also, it can make more people feel that everything is going into a well known way, so, good to hear... most people do not have oportunity to hear and FEEL old ways of playing...


Omnia mea mecum porto

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#33 2009-12-25 01:28:08

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: ¿Bugbear?

Musgo da Pedra wrote:

As a friend who  plays classical guitar and is very conservative and sensitive in all ways would say about the loss of the old tunings: "Sad...sad"...

Old tuning is nice... more than nice... it shows diferent ways in meditation music...in meditation...in music...in many ways...


The western tuning is good, and also, it can make more people feel that everything is going into a well known way, so, good to hear... most people do not have oportunity to hear and FEEL old ways of playing...

Hi Musgo
I know exactly what you mean. But don't forget that the tuning of the shakuhachi is only in terms of its holes. The rest of the pitches are up to us, as players (although, that does effect some of the more complex techniques which need to be considered). Non-western temperaments are still common here in Japan. When we say "Western" we are really talking (I presume) about 12 tone equal temperament. Some temperaments are close enough for an instrument as flexible as the shakuhachi to play a variety of temperaments, when the notes are only different by a few cents. In the traditional Japanese music of shamisen and koto, the notes which are most different from the Western (12-tET) temperament are, when played on the shakuhachi, the meri notes. These are played flatter. So, this is not a problem for the holes (since it's not the pitch of the open hole, but the shaded hole) - just the player! Shamisen and voice by their nature are flexible so there is no temperament limitation there particularly. Koto however has notes determined by the bridges, and it is not uncommon to see people tuning with a digital tuner. For modern music this is probably necessary. However for traditional music this changes the temperament, and so those notes which are significantly different from the tuner's temperament are then lowered to the correct pitches. I don't know how widespread that is, but I have seen this done - tuner followed by adjustments.

As for the ancient honkyoku temperament, although this has largely changed in post Edo times, I personally enjoy the diversity. I like a lot of the honkyoku played in a more modern way by some of the contemporary schools of traditional honkyoku (none of which, from the ones I have studied at least, are using 12 tone ET), while enjoying the older styles too. I believe that changes have occurred not only in recent times but also within the Edo period itself, and also regionally, as the music traveled across the country. So change seems to be natural. Unfortunately this is a difficult topic to research as recording technology only goes back so far and even when the technology was there, recordings of koten honkyoku were not popular in the Meiji period so few were made, and fewer preserved. It would make a fascinating subject for a thesis though, if anyone is looking for one!

Last edited by Justin (2009-12-25 01:34:32)

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