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#26 2010-02-11 04:21:44

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3222
Website

Re: Chikuho manual

Interesting stuff Justin.

Looking at the concurrent thread about Myoan Shinpo Ryu which is on the verge of dying and leaving few recordings and only unreadable notation behind makes me think all this secrecy is at the very least counter-evolutionary. Generally speaking survival is an imperative. These restrictive practices are so incestuous that as with any incestuous situation there is a bottleneck and everything dies.

And then we have................drum roll..................wink End of History!


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#27 2010-02-11 07:15:12

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: Chikuho manual

Well, I'm doing my best to learn the Shimpo-ryu pieces while the lineage is still alive. Recordings are better than nothing for sure, to keep some kind of document for those interested, or to allow someone to "reconstruct" the tradition. But I think the living lineage is more important as there is so much to learn that can't be grasped otherwise. As for the pieces which have already been lost, once one has studied a certain number of pieces properly it is at least possible to make an approximation of other pieces from the notation, though, these will always remain "arrangements" to some extent.

Last edited by Justin (2010-02-11 07:16:48)

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#28 2010-02-11 09:11:33

Josh
PhD
From: Grand Island, NY/Nara, Japan
Registered: 2005-11-14
Posts: 305
Website

Re: Chikuho manual

From what I have heard from various people basically the Shimpo-ryu did die out. Everything we have today is a reconstruction of what they "think" it really sounded like.  Similarly, it is such an old style that most of the music is extremely simple in terms of musical structure, techniques etc. I believe that simple can definitely be deceptively profound, yet some people view it as boring. Shimura once mentioned that irregardless of what the public thought of it in terms of music, if the players had really taken an interest in it it wouldn't have faded out so much. The feeling I got was "Like everything else, only the strong survive."  Players like Sakai Shodo are kind of spicing it up recently to popularize it though. 
I definitely think more efforts should be made to maintain the tradition though. I understand the idea behind the need for secrecy too, not wanting to let it get watered down or be misrepresented by people who haven't fully studied it, but like many arts in Japan schools have died out do to basically stubbornness and/or elitist thinking.  I tend to think more good would come than harm if it were more out in the public domain.

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#29 2010-02-11 10:23:00

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: Chikuho manual

Josh wrote:

From what I have heard from various people basically the Shimpo-ryu did die out. Everything we have today is a reconstruction of what they "think" it really sounded like.

Hi Josh
Not so. Please read the Shimpo-ryu thread going on now. Takahashi Rochiku-sensei's Shimpo-ryu is not reconstructed, though what you say might be applicable to almost all Shimpo-ryu other than him perhaps. I certainly know of people who play, even teach, from reconstruction/interpretation from scores etc.

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#30 2010-02-11 12:01:56

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: Chikuho manual

Justin wrote:

Sometimes the shakuhachi world can be a little different from (what I imagine at least) the Western music lesson system might be like, with the pieces regarded as very precious and sometimes access restricted. Sometimes I think this may be good, though sometimes I think it can be too exclusive, not always in a positive way. Sometimes they have reasons though. There are instances, in Kyushu in particular, of certain characters making trouble and this just makes the teachers even more wary, making things more difficult for future students. So relationships take time to form. Perhaps shakuhachi study would be more encouraged if everyone were open, but then, on the positive side, this may help to keep styles somewhat isolated (and therefore preserve heterogeneity) and may also increase the perceived "specialness" or value for those studying, which can be a good thing.

Jim, if you are coming to Tokyo do let me know. You're welcome to visit!

Justin,
     Thanks for the invite! I'd love to check out your digs but I couldn't be much further away and still be in Japan. Maybe next time.
      My sense of things is that due to centuries of feudal wars in Japan, a very wary attitude towards people from outside their local areas is the mind set. I think while there may be some positive results from this it's mostly a detriment. Does it make sense to hide a tradition that's in danger of perishing? Does it make sense to turn away people who are willing or practice 3, 4 or 5 hours a day? Unfortunately, I see the survival of some of these traditions in peril partly because of paranoia and ego. Admittedly, I come from a tradition that values openness, free exchange of ideas and the willingness and ABILITY to play with anybody.  It's been a interesting challenge to stay cool in the face wienieism, but just about the time I'm about to blow something so disarmingly sweet will happen that I realize it's worth the trouble. Cross cultural relationships can be a real emotional roller coaster ride. Maybe it's just me.


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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#31 2010-02-11 14:12:48

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3222
Website

Re: Chikuho manual

Justin wrote:

Josh wrote:

From what I have heard from various people basically the Shimpo-ryu did die out. Everything we have today is a reconstruction of what they "think" it really sounded like.

Hi Josh
Not so. Please read the Shimpo-ryu thread going on now. Takahashi Rochiku-sensei's Shimpo-ryu is not reconstructed, though what you say might be applicable to almost all Shimpo-ryu other than him perhaps. I certainly know of people who play, even teach, from reconstruction/interpretation from scores etc.

Then someone better stick a microphone in front of this guy tout de suite not to mention a video camera.

Most of the Shinpo ryu stuff I am familiar with is undoubtedly the "reconstructed" versions, i.e. Jin Nyodo, so it would be good to hear the unbroken tradition.

How do they expect to survive if they don't record or perform and only teach a few people roll?

Times like this make me appreciate the aggressive nature of Tozan and Yokoyama-style, at least their music will roll on for a few more generations.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#32 2010-02-11 14:19:42

TCB
Member
Registered: 2006-09-25
Posts: 34

Re: Chikuho manual

Tairaku wrote:

How do they expect to survive if they don't record or perform and only teach a few people roll?

Forgive me if I am wrong, but sometimes I think that carrying on a tradition is not the main priority for some.

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#33 2010-02-11 14:51:57

Matt Lyon
Member
From: North Eastern Oregon
Registered: 2009-06-30
Posts: 92

Re: Chikuho manual

TCB wrote:

Tairaku wrote:

How do they expect to survive if they don't record or perform and only teach a few people roll?

Forgive me if I am wrong, but sometimes I think that carrying on a tradition is not the main priority for some.

For some that is true. But for those who are the heads of their tradition that is (or should be) a large concern. If not then the torch got passed on to the wrong person.

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#34 2010-02-11 15:51:35

rpowers
Member
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 285

Re: Chikuho manual

Josh wrote:

I'll also be playing Sanya (yama tani) in Komuso attire. trying not to fall, trying not to fall...

Josh,

This might be the only opportunity I ever have to offer you advice.

If you feel insecure walking while wearing the tengai, the key is what you wear on your feet. Waraji will give you feedback and security that you won't get from zori or (especially) from geta.


"Shut up 'n' play . . . " -- Frank Zappa
"Gonna blow some . . ." -- Junior Walker
"It's not the flute." -- Riley Lee

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#35 2010-02-11 21:41:27

Josh
PhD
From: Grand Island, NY/Nara, Japan
Registered: 2005-11-14
Posts: 305
Website

Re: Chikuho manual

Waraji! Great idea. You're right, you can definitely feel your away around and have more stability. Unfortunately it's the day after tomorrow so I'll be going the seta/zoori route this time. I think it might be more of a visual impairment though. Just takes practice I guess.

Justin, I've read the interesting post and understand what you are saying. I applaud your efforts to learn the tradition and hope more players like yourself emerge. But I guess what I'm getting at is that if the school has any desire to change it's common image, player's of Takahashi Rochiku-sensei's Shimpo-ryu should make more effort to promote their music via performances, lectures, workshops etc.  I think Riley, Shimura and Sakai are great examples of people both in Japan and internationally who have made many successful efforts to keep the Chikuho tradition alive. I hope Shimpo ryu will make these kind of efforts as well.

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#36 2010-02-11 21:49:38

Moran from Planet X
Member
From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
Website

Re: Chikuho manual

Josh wrote:

The feeling I got was "Like everything else, only the strong survive."

Only the adaptable survive. smile

Strength isn't everything.

Ask Tyrannosaurus Rex and then ask the cockroach.


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#37 2010-02-11 22:04:58

Moran from Planet X
Member
From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
Website

Re: Chikuho manual

Tairaku wrote:

Then someone better stick a microphone in front of this guy tout de suite not to mention a video camera.

Yes, please.

The more interesting part of this for me is: if and when the lineage was (noticeably) influenced by Western music.

Of course, I could also be wondering about how many komuso can dance on the toenail of a bodhisattva, too.

Also: here is the link to the Shimpo-ryu (Shinpo-ryu?) thread:

http://www.shakuhachiforum.com/viewtopic.php?id=4345

Last edited by Chris Moran (2010-02-11 23:00:45)


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#38 2010-02-18 04:20:31

Justin
Shihan/Maker
From: Japan
Registered: 2006-08-12
Posts: 540
Website

Re: Chikuho manual

There are a number of points here which I will respond to, but in the Shimpo-ryu thread which has been going on simultaneously with this thread. That topic is really the topic of many posts here, so I will answer there especially as it will be easier to search in future:
http://www.shakuhachiforum.com/viewtopi … 494#p29494

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#39 2010-02-27 22:57:53

Riley Lee
Moderator
From: Manly NSW Australia
Registered: 2005-10-08
Posts: 78
Website

Re: Chikuho manual

TCB wrote:

Hi everyone,

I started to relearn my shakuhachi again after 2-year break. I used to have a teacher, now I am on my own. We used Chikuho notation. I still have the materials. I have been working through the practice exercises to try to train my embrochure again. Even though we spent two years of practice, we only worked through the very basic notes and the practice exercises. I am now wondering if there is a good self-learning manual in Chikuho notation. Riley Lee himself claims that none exists. I am justing wondering if there is one now since last time he said so. Thank you.

Hi TBC

I was alerted to your Chikuho notation request - the rarest of things! I recently started dabbling with teaching via Skype. Since you asked specifically about Chikuho notation, I feel obligated to (honoured, really) to teach you, if you want to give it a try. For what it's worth, my students have access to over 80 honkyoku scores in Chikuho notation.

On the other hand, shakuhachi is shakuhachi; it doesn't really matter what kind of notation system one uses. Most of my students can tell you that learning new systems is the easiest part of playing shakuhachi. Studying with a real live teacher is better than even a "live to air via Skype" teacher, so if you can get even occasional live lessons (not via internet) from Michael or anyone else, I suggest you do so, even if you have to learn another system.

Speaking of real, live lessons, I hope you can come to the Rockies Shakuhachi Summer Camp in June.

Please email me offline if interested in the Skype lessons. That goes for anyone else who wants to use Chikuho notation....

Cheers, Riley

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#40 2010-02-28 10:51:39

Lorka
Member
Registered: 2007-02-27
Posts: 303

Re: Chikuho manual

Seems like Chikuho is safe and sound and in very good hands with Riley.  I have been reading this thread with equal measures of interest and bewilderment.  My only real contribution would be to point to Brain and say, "yeah, what he said".  I stronlgy oppose the secretive, elitist, exclusionary model of transmitting knowledge.  Those who espouse such a view typically get to vanish into a well deserved obscurity.  This does not mean that shameless self promotion is good either, but some kind of healthy middle-ground must be possible.

All this Ryu info really makes my head spin.  Would it maybe be possible to have another section of the forum devoted just to Ryu discussion.  That would be nice and simple and effective for people interersted in specific Ryu.  I for one would like that, but it is of course, subject to the interest of others.

Oh yeah, and what happened to my avatar, I need a new one -)

Last edited by Lorka (2010-02-28 10:53:16)


Gravity is the root of grace

~ Lao Tzu~

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#41 2010-02-28 11:29:29

Moran from Planet X
Member
From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
Website

Re: Chikuho manual

Lorka wrote:

I strongly oppose the secretive, elitist, exclusionary model of transmitting knowledge.  Those who espouse such a view typically get to vanish into a well deserved obscurity.  This does not mean that shameless self promotion is good either, but some kind of healthy middle-ground must be possible.

Secretive, Elitist and Exclusionary model of transmitting knowledge?

If you'll accept My Way of teaching Secret Shakuhachi Philosophy and play Secret Ryu music which only I sell you and only buy flutes from One True Shakuhachi Maker or from my collection of super secret rat-traps, I mean rare shakuhachi, I will be deeply, humbly full of glee. I will debase and otherwise grovel and stoop to accept your generous (ahem) donations.

By the way, my books and records and signed portraits suitable-for-framing and displaying on the center of your Secret Ryu Altar (item #7101 in your catalog) are also available on a limited time basis, that is, if I accept you.

I think this is Healthiest Middle Shakuhachi Ground.


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#42 2010-02-28 12:30:16

Lorka
Member
Registered: 2007-02-27
Posts: 303

Re: Chikuho manual

Ahh Chris, yes, I will subscribe to your secret Ryu and send a blank cheque which you can fill in with any number you like.


Gravity is the root of grace

~ Lao Tzu~

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#43 2010-02-28 14:12:06

mrwuwu
Member
From: Chicago, Illinois
Registered: 2007-11-23
Posts: 160

Re: Chikuho manual

Ahhh,  Moran Sensei,  please accept another disciple for indoctrination into the secret Tarzan Ha Mean Ryu school of Shakuninjitsu.  I will ship gold coins,   not fake checks or money orders.    Please use template and offer us more rare Tarzan Ha shakuhachi at highest prices.   This is history at it's wurst, and there is never an end to any story.


" You know, it's been three years now, maybe a new teacher can help you? ...... " Sensei

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#44 2010-02-28 14:50:29

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3222
Website

Re: Chikuho manual

Chris Moran wrote:

By the way, my books and records and signed portraits suitable-for-framing and displaying on the center of your Secret Ryu Altar (item #7101 in your catalog) are also available on a limited time basis, that is, if I accept you.

X. you are not permitted to excommunicate yourself from Knob-U-Ryu™. Get thee back!


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#45 2010-02-28 18:23:02

ricebag
Official Sacred Scribe of Knob-U-ryu™
From: Knob-U-rye
Registered: 2009-07-05
Posts: 3
Website

Re: Chikuho manual

Please send all monies to Moran Sensei.





http://i717.photobucket.com/albums/ww173/prestonjjrtr/Smileys/worship.gif

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#46 2010-02-28 19:09:37

Moran from Planet X
Member
From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
Website

Re: Chikuho manual

mrwuwu wrote:

Ahhh,  Moran Sensei,  please accept another disciple for indoctrination into the secret Tarzan Ha Mean Ryu school of Shakuninjitsu.  I will ship gold coins,   not fake checks or money orders.    Please use template and offer us more rare Tarzan Ha shakuhachi at highest prices.   This is history at it's wurst, and there is never an end to any story.

Thank you Jr.-Sensei and Treasurer Pro-Tem, Clint-san. 

It is okay, though, to mention our Secret Ha Group-within-Group Super Secret Name in all it's properness so everyone in Worldwide Shakuninjitsu can benefit from it's glowing oral aura:

The Mean Tarzan Shakuhachi Ha-ha™

...

But, like Knob-U-Ryu™, I feel some restraintmentness of historical contriviality and re-creationism.

So i must offer to all Bamboo-Liberation Lovers the following:

1. Eschew your Bamboo!

2. Take up your Yuu and follow me!

3. to the new  Shakuhachi Fuké-Yuu Shu Ryu™ !

Step one is to send ALL your OLD tired bamboo shakuhachi to me. All of them, even the ones that are in two or four pieces.

Along with 4.25 ounces of pure gold or 175 Krugerrands, whichever is worth more at the moment.

In return, I will offer you FREE, for a low adjustable-rate shipping and handling fee, one Divine Bamboo Liberation ABS Yuu Shakuhachi specially reworked by me in the highest tradition of Fuké-Yuu Shu™ to enhance the Hee and the Haw. No extra charge!

Plus I will also throw in a xerox copy of your Official Shakuhachi Fuké-Yuu Shu Ryu™ membership in the Dai-Sensei Rank, so straightaway you can call your self an Instant Shakuhachi Fuké-Yuu Shu Ryu™ Master of Grand Rankness. Printed on 20-lb. bond offset copy paper, this valueless monochrome license, stamped with several special illegible hanko, will impress even the least cognitively-ambitious of your friends and family.

Hurry while time runs out!


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." —Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#47 2010-02-28 19:11:43

mrwuwu
Member
From: Chicago, Illinois
Registered: 2007-11-23
Posts: 160

Re: Chikuho manual

You leave me speechless, Moran Sensei!


" You know, it's been three years now, maybe a new teacher can help you? ...... " Sensei

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#48 2010-02-28 19:29:10

baian
Member
Registered: 2006-03-28
Posts: 83

Re: Chikuho manual

you had me at enhance.

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#49 2010-03-01 07:01:26

purehappiness
Member
From: Connecticut USA
Registered: 2009-01-13
Posts: 528

Re: Chikuho manual

My Yuu is on its way. smile


I was not conscious whether I was riding on the wind or the wind was riding on me.

Lieh-tzu

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#50 2010-04-08 08:14:55

Christopher B.
Member
From: Berlin, Germany
Registered: 2009-03-17
Posts: 235
Website

Re: Chikuho manual

Hey TCB,

a friend of mine send me a chikuho book, do you allready have one? My one is in japanese I think. I f you need it please let me know.


In reality it is Ha,Ro,Ha,Ro... ~Sensei~
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