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  •  » what pitch should ru be on a 1.8 shakuhachi?

#1 2010-02-16 14:29:59

purehappiness
Member
From: Connecticut USA
Registered: 2009-01-13
Posts: 528

what pitch should ru be on a 1.8 shakuhachi?

I was wondering if anyone could tell me what pitch ru should coming from chi meri on a 1.8 shakuhachi.

Last edited by purehappiness (2010-02-16 14:34:07)


I was not conscious whether I was riding on the wind or the wind was riding on me.

Lieh-tzu

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#2 2010-02-16 22:32:54

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: what pitch should ru be on a 1.8 shakuhachi?

purehappiness wrote:

I was wondering if anyone could tell me what pitch ru should coming from chi meri on a 1.8 shakuhachi.

A flat; same pitch as Chi meri.

Do you have a good fingering chart (for 1.8)?

[direct download link to a decent one from Andrew Macgregor's website: http://www.shakuhachiflutes.com/forms/f5.pdf, just right-click
on this link, 'Save target as...', and you can save it to your 'puter.]


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#3 2010-02-17 05:57:46

purehappiness
Member
From: Connecticut USA
Registered: 2009-01-13
Posts: 528

Re: what pitch should ru be on a 1.8 shakuhachi?

Thanks.From the chart it looks like it should be the same pitch as re.I should have looked at a few charts myself.

Last edited by purehappiness (2010-02-17 06:25:35)


I was not conscious whether I was riding on the wind or the wind was riding on me.

Lieh-tzu

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#4 2010-02-17 11:53:50

Zakarius
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From: Taichung, TAIWAN
Registered: 2006-04-12
Posts: 361

Re: what pitch should ru be on a 1.8 shakuhachi?

In Dokyoku, Ru is the same pitch as Re (or U dai meri). If you're playing a Chi meri with #3 shaded, you can move to Ru by closing #2 or shading #1 & #2 (some flutes only work one way or the other).

Zak


塵も積もれば山となる -- "Chiri mo tsumoreba yama to naru." -- Piled-up specks of dust become a mountain.

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#5 2010-02-17 13:00:17

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: what pitch should ru be on a 1.8 shakuhachi?

Zakarius wrote:

In Dokyoku, Ru is the same pitch as Re (or U dai meri). If you're playing a Chi meri with #3 shaded, you can move to Ru by closing #2 or shading #1 & #2 (some flutes only work one way or the other).

Zak

What he said....forget what I said above. MacGregor's chart is either in error, or talking about something I have yet to hear about.

Just to make things even more confusing, in Tozan, the kanji for Ru indicates the western pitch F on a 1.8, or same pitch as Tsu--ie, in non-Tozan
it'd be 'Re dai meri'.


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#6 2010-02-17 13:27:18

Musgo da Pedra
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From: South of Brazil
Registered: 2007-12-02
Posts: 332
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Re: what pitch should ru be on a 1.8 shakuhachi?

edosan wrote:

in non-Tozan it'd be 'Re dai meri'.

You mean Chi Dai Meri = Ru right?


Omnia mea mecum porto

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#7 2010-02-17 14:06:20

purehappiness
Member
From: Connecticut USA
Registered: 2009-01-13
Posts: 528

Re: what pitch should ru be on a 1.8 shakuhachi?

Ok.
Things are getting confusing now. sad
If you go to a dai meri of a note you are basically going to the next lower note. At least in pitch. So, chi dai meri would equal re in pitch.
But you are doing a chi meri and then closing the number 2 hole.

Thanks zak for the alternative fingering. smile

Zak I think you are right with it being equal to re.

Last edited by purehappiness (2010-02-17 14:12:35)


I was not conscious whether I was riding on the wind or the wind was riding on me.

Lieh-tzu

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#8 2010-02-17 14:17:44

Matt Lyon
Member
From: North Eastern Oregon
Registered: 2009-06-30
Posts: 92

Re: what pitch should ru be on a 1.8 shakuhachi?

purehappiness wrote:

Ok.
Things are getting confusing now. sad
If you go to a dai meri of a note you are basically going to the next lower note. At least in pitch. So, chi dai meri would equal re in pitch.
But you are doing a chi meri and then closing the number 2 hole.

Thanks zak for the alternative fingering. smile

Zak I think you are right with it being equal to re.

Sounds like you have it. Chi dai meri, ru, and re are the same pitch. For me the distinction is the fingering which gives you different sound options.

Last edited by Matt Lyon (2010-02-17 14:18:51)

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#9 2010-02-17 17:48:30

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: what pitch should ru be on a 1.8 shakuhachi?

Musgo da Pedra wrote:

edosan wrote:

in non-Tozan it'd be 'Re dai meri'.

You mean Chi Dai Meri = Ru right?

Yes.

I answering the original question above, I glanced at an old MacGregor chart which I have around, assuming it had been corrected (his early ones had several errors)...that particular part (incorrect location of fingering for Ru) had not. It is correct on later versions of the chart, including the one linked to above.


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#10 2010-02-17 18:30:50

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3225
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Re: what pitch should ru be on a 1.8 shakuhachi?

The exact pitch of that note is different for example in Jin Nyodo honkyoku than in Yokoyama style Dokyoku. Yokoyama style uses more shading, they shade 3 and 1 when playing che-ru-tsu-ru. In Jin Nyodo we don't always shade 3 and seldom shade 1. Therefore the pitches are different. It's dependent upon the piece and the phrase, there is no one specific pitch.

If there is anyone conversant in more than one style who knows otherwise please chime in, this is just my limited understanding because I have not studied Yokoyama style thoroughly. One of the reasons I haven't wanted to is because my hands are too big to do all that shading! wink

McGregor would be working from the Yokoyama concept I suppose?


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#11 2010-02-17 19:40:04

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: what pitch should ru be on a 1.8 shakuhachi?

Tairaku wrote:

One of the reasons I haven't wanted to is because my hands are too big to do all that shading! wink

McGregor would be working from the Yokoyama concept I suppose?

I think so [and there's some good surgery for that other problem...].


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#12 2010-02-18 06:39:59

purehappiness
Member
From: Connecticut USA
Registered: 2009-01-13
Posts: 528

Re: what pitch should ru be on a 1.8 shakuhachi?

Well, I suppose I have learned something about ru. It can change and is not necessarily always the same pitch.

Its a long and hard road to wisdom. smile


I was not conscious whether I was riding on the wind or the wind was riding on me.

Lieh-tzu

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#13 2010-02-18 07:20:46

Musgo da Pedra
Member
From: South of Brazil
Registered: 2007-12-02
Posts: 332
Website

Re: what pitch should ru be on a 1.8 shakuhachi?

purehappiness wrote:

Well, I suppose I have learned something about ru. It can change and is not necessarily always the same pitch.

Its a long and hard road to wisdom. smile

Depends on the perspective of the school. I can be wrong, but in Dokyoku I only saw, until what I have studied, RU with the pitch of RE. 

Maybe the Ryu of the piece can give you some direction and make the road easier!


Omnia mea mecum porto

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#14 2010-02-18 08:10:22

radi0gnome
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From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: what pitch should ru be on a 1.8 shakuhachi?

purehappiness wrote:

Well, I suppose I have learned something about ru. It can change and is not necessarily always the same pitch.

Its a long and hard road to wisdom. smile

What I'm wondering is what you need such an exotic fingering for? If you are learning honkyoku and had a teacher you wouldn't have to ask, and if you were learning traditional folk music or Western pop music by yourself, there wouldn't be any question because you'd know what pitch you're going for. So, my assumption is that you're attempting to learn honkyoku without a teacher. Since every time I've gotten the inclination to try to learn honkyoku on my own I've given up quickly because of the number of questions mounting, I've got to ask, how's it going for you? Are you able to make reasonable headway with honkyoku self study?


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#15 2010-02-18 09:17:18

purehappiness
Member
From: Connecticut USA
Registered: 2009-01-13
Posts: 528

Re: what pitch should ru be on a 1.8 shakuhachi?

I have a teacher. I will have to ask him next.

Last edited by purehappiness (2010-02-18 09:20:01)


I was not conscious whether I was riding on the wind or the wind was riding on me.

Lieh-tzu

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#16 2010-02-18 09:28:02

lowonthetotem
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From: Cape Coral, FL
Registered: 2008-04-05
Posts: 529
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Re: what pitch should ru be on a 1.8 shakuhachi?

I guess the discussion is over, but I have been taught that the pitch it the same as Re, which is the same as Chi Dai Meri and U Dai Meri.  The fingering I am familiar with is Chi Meri with the 2 hole covered completely.  It differs from Re in that it is less loud.  It also seems to require much less breath than Re and U Dai Meri allowing it to be trailed out for much longer.  It is also a useful fingering for trills between Re and Chi Meri.  My instruction has been in the Dokyoku style, so my answer comes from that perspective.


"Turn like a wheel inside a wheel."

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#17 2010-02-18 09:36:19

purehappiness
Member
From: Connecticut USA
Registered: 2009-01-13
Posts: 528

Re: what pitch should ru be on a 1.8 shakuhachi?

Sorry. If I wasted everyones time. It was a good info share though. smile Also, I did gain some knowledge on other peoples perspective and ways they were taught.

Thanks


I was not conscious whether I was riding on the wind or the wind was riding on me.

Lieh-tzu

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#18 2010-02-18 10:38:29

lowonthetotem
Member
From: Cape Coral, FL
Registered: 2008-04-05
Posts: 529
Website

Re: what pitch should ru be on a 1.8 shakuhachi?

I don't think it was a waste of time at all.  It gave me a chance to say something about shakuhachi, which doesn't happen often.  Just as an FYI, Ru is the same tone as Re on a 1.8, a 2.4, or a 1.5.  As far as what western notes these correspond to, I am at a loss, although a chromatic tuner could tell you.


"Turn like a wheel inside a wheel."

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#19 2010-02-18 10:45:02

purehappiness
Member
From: Connecticut USA
Registered: 2009-01-13
Posts: 528

Re: what pitch should ru be on a 1.8 shakuhachi?

I was using a shaku tuner off the internet which brought this original thought up. It showed re when I blew ru. Which got me thinking that either the tuner does not recognize ru or something was wrong.


I was not conscious whether I was riding on the wind or the wind was riding on me.

Lieh-tzu

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#20 2010-02-18 11:00:43

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3225
Website

Re: what pitch should ru be on a 1.8 shakuhachi?

purehappiness wrote:

I was using a shaku tuner off the internet which brought this original thought up. It showed re when I blew ru. Which got me thinking that either the tuner does not recognize ru or something was wrong.

Shakuhachi players think in smaller intervals than those found on an electronic tuner. That's a lot of the difference between different styles of shakuhachi, different ideas of pitch.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#21 2010-02-18 11:05:41

purehappiness
Member
From: Connecticut USA
Registered: 2009-01-13
Posts: 528

Re: what pitch should ru be on a 1.8 shakuhachi?

Thanks for that bit of info.  smile


I was not conscious whether I was riding on the wind or the wind was riding on me.

Lieh-tzu

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#22 2010-02-18 11:37:02

caffeind
Member
From: Tokyo
Registered: 2006-04-13
Posts: 148

Re: what pitch should ru be on a 1.8 shakuhachi?

Tairaku wrote:

The exact pitch of that note is different for example in Jin Nyodo honkyoku than in Yokoyama style Dokyoku. Yokoyama style uses more shading, they shade 3 and 1 when playing che-ru-tsu-ru. In Jin Nyodo we don't always shade 3 and seldom shade 1. Therefore the pitches are different. It's dependent upon the piece and the phrase, there is no one specific pitch.

If there is anyone conversant in more than one style who knows otherwise please chime in, this is just my limited understanding because I have not studied Yokoyama style thoroughly. One of the reasons I haven't wanted to is because my hands are too big to do all that shading! wink

1 shaded, 3 open. Shading 3 makes things fiddlier than they need to be.

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#23 2010-02-18 11:54:41

purehappiness
Member
From: Connecticut USA
Registered: 2009-01-13
Posts: 528

Re: what pitch should ru be on a 1.8 shakuhachi?

I never would have realized how much variation there is in this little note RU. smile


I was not conscious whether I was riding on the wind or the wind was riding on me.

Lieh-tzu

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#24 2010-02-18 19:16:45

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3225
Website

Re: what pitch should ru be on a 1.8 shakuhachi?

caffeind wrote:

1 shaded, 3 open. Shading 3 makes things fiddlier than they need to be.

Yes, although a few people have showed me the other way. Most honkyoku lineage have some version of the "chi ru tsu ru" riff (although not always stated in that way) but the note you're referring to as being shaded by one is not always and then produces a slightly sharper pitch. It's a matter of flavor.

Not to open a new can of worms but then there's the "ru" in sankyoku music which just means "repeat by hitting one" regardless of the previous note. So if the note is chi, chi meri, re, whatever, you hit one. Naturally this creates a lot of different pitches, so it's more of an indication than a "note" per se.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#25 2010-02-18 20:29:26

caffeind
Member
From: Tokyo
Registered: 2006-04-13
Posts: 148

Re: what pitch should ru be on a 1.8 shakuhachi?

I cant account for the other way but leaving 3 open is simple and leaves you with full use of that finger. One of Yokoyama's students said Yokoyama liked to make a joke about the chi-ru-tsumeri pattern. People would get confused, and he would just say something like 'Look, all you need to do is move your fingers'. If you can find the right balance between meri and shading, you can play chi meri, ru and tsu meri with very little adjustment in meri, and minimise movement of your fingers.

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