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#26 2010-03-16 00:46:55

Matt Lyon
Member
From: North Eastern Oregon
Registered: 2009-06-30
Posts: 92

Re: Re: Understood Honkyoku Custom

Do a search for on the forum for a user named Horst. If you read some of the posts you will get the inside joke.

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#27 2010-03-16 01:24:20

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3222
Website

Re: Re: Understood Honkyoku Custom

Matt Lyon wrote:

Do a search for on the forum for a user named Horst. If you read some of the posts you will get the inside joke.

Mike and Matt, it is NOT a joke. In fact this is probably the closest thing to an online tutorial you will find. Also the elusive zen concept of "End of History" is explained in detail.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIELIt06L-w


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#28 2010-03-16 02:40:35

Mike Raftery
Member
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2008-10-25
Posts: 44

Re: Re: Understood Honkyoku Custom

Man, I need a teacher to explain what the teachers are saying.  But I think I picked up a few clues in Horst Meister's video and feel I'm on the verge of a breakthrough, I do think I learned something.  I didn't notice anything about technique, but I did hear a shakuhachi being played in the mix

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#29 2010-03-16 09:38:40

lowonthetotem
Member
From: Cape Coral, FL
Registered: 2008-04-05
Posts: 529
Website

Re: Re: Understood Honkyoku Custom

and feel I'm on the verge of a breakthrough

Stay close to the crapper.


"Turn like a wheel inside a wheel."

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#30 2010-03-16 18:02:47

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3222
Website

Re: Re: Understood Honkyoku Custom

lowonthetotem wrote:

and feel I'm on the verge of a breakthrough

Stay close to the crapper.

But make sure to keep this shakuhachi inspired device handy!

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc123/Tairaku/avatars/toiletpaperholderA0060rsamain.jpg


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#31 2010-03-16 18:13:49

Moran from Planet X
Member
From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
Website

Re: Re: Understood Honkyoku Custom

Tairaku wrote:

lowonthetotem wrote:

and feel I'm on the verge of a breakthrough

Stay close to the crapper.

But make sure to keep this shakuhachi inspired device handy!

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc12 … samain.jpg

Dammit, that's my old Taimu!


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#32 2010-03-16 21:17:59

Mike Raftery
Member
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2008-10-25
Posts: 44

Re: Re: Understood Honkyoku Custom

Looks like this thread is in the toilet, anyone want to pull the lever and flush it down? 

One last chance: Still like to know if anyone can say something about those first 2 notes of Azuma Jishi, what is HE doing? Is is yuri, or a CHI before the U, then slide up to RI?  If not, I understand, because I don't have a teacher, I don't deserve a specific reply.

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#33 2010-03-16 23:05:56

Moran from Planet X
Member
From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
Website

Re: Re: Understood Honkyoku Custom

Mike Raftery wrote:

One last chance: Still like to know if anyone can say something about those first 2 notes of Azuma Jishi, what is HE doing? Is is yuri, or a CHI before the U, then slide up to RI?  If not, I understand, because I don't have a teacher, I don't deserve a specific reply.

I know very, very little and I'm not certain what you mean by the 'first two notes,' but I can see and hear Yokoyama using a lot of furi in his playing, a rapid dip in pitch and return to pitch. The dip in pitch is significant, no less than a complete half-tone flatter. Some players dip lower than a half tone. Yokoyama sounds like he often uses two in a row or one in front and one in back of the note, etc. It's a very subtle and precise ornament

Furi, like the various forms of yuri and other ornaments (and "tricks") only confuses the main issues of playing your instrument and the music well. You can learn Azuma Jishi perfectly well with never having to do a furi. Furi sounds really great coming from a seasoned master player, but it sounds utterly bush league coming from beginning students. It puts the cart way in front of the horse.

I sympathize with you. Azuma Jishi is a beautiful piece of music (it has a Meian school cousin, Azuma no Kyoku). Azuma Jishi is vastly under-recorded. See if you can just play the basics you hear and not worry too much about all the wavering and warbling and see what you can glean from the written Yokuyama score for a while. Work on your breathing, getting long tones that decay smoothly without any vibrato or yuri. Work on relaxing as much as possible while you play. Listen, listen, listen. Then wait for a teacher well-versed in Yokoyama styled music to visit SF.

There simply is no such thing as Shakuhachi-Made-EZ ... although I think I'll trademark that.


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#34 2010-03-16 23:21:44

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Re: Understood Honkyoku Custom

Very well put.


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#35 2010-03-17 22:44:45

Jeff Cairns
teacher, performer,promoter of shakuhachi
From: Kumamoto, Japan
Registered: 2005-10-10
Posts: 517
Website

Re: Re: Understood Honkyoku Custom

Mike, Chris' explanation of what Yokoyama is doing at the beginning and all through Azuma Jishi is absolutely correct.  As an intellectual exercise, it's good to know.  However, Chris' continued admonition to first learn to play the notes as they are written with attention to breath and even decay with the intention of waiting for a Yokoyama-style teacher to give you the proper details of furi execution is dead-on.


shakuhachi flute
I step out into the wind
with holes in my bones

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#36 2010-03-17 23:53:02

Mike Raftery
Member
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2008-10-25
Posts: 44

Re: Re: Understood Honkyoku Custom

Right on, Chris, appreciate the reply..dead on!!  Sought of like pulling teeth to get a answer to this rather simple question, I think.  Rapid dip,rapid upswing... into the note..  I have actively been seeking a local teacher, so I hope all this needless attention on my current, teacherless state will cease, and focus back on playing.  I have never been against one to one live in person teaching, don't know how this got started.  I do believe supplementing one to one live in person teaching with whatever you can get your hands on to help further one's ability should be OK.  And when I see a video lesson on how to play a classical piece of honkyoku, I get excited, so I know I'll buy it. So much to learn so little time.  In it for personal enjoyment not public performance.  Thank you shakuhachi brothers, and sisters!!

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#37 2010-03-18 07:35:38

edosan
Edomologist
From: Salt Lake City
Registered: 2005-10-09
Posts: 2185

Re: Re: Understood Honkyoku Custom

Mike Raftery wrote:

Sought [sic] of like pulling teeth to get a answer to this rather simple question, I think.

Point is, and it should be fairly obvious by now, that it's not a 'rather simple question'.

At all.


Zen is not easy.
It takes effort to attain nothingness.
And then what do you have?
Bupkes.

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#38 2010-03-18 13:39:55

Moran from Planet X
Member
From: Here to There
Registered: 2005-10-11
Posts: 1524
Website

Re: Re: Understood Honkyoku Custom

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4054/4443747366_218642ea64_o.jpg


"I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I am all out of bubblegum." Rowdy Piper, They Live!

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#39 2010-03-18 14:00:35

purehappiness
Member
From: Connecticut USA
Registered: 2009-01-13
Posts: 528

Re: Re: Understood Honkyoku Custom

Hey. A new 60's flick. smile


I was not conscious whether I was riding on the wind or the wind was riding on me.

Lieh-tzu

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#40 2010-03-19 02:27:15

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: Re: Understood Honkyoku Custom

Mike Raftery wrote:

Sought of like pulling teeth to get a answer to this rather simple question, I think.  Rapid dip,rapid upswing.

A couple other elements you can throw in are on the 1st note (U) do an Atari (tone hole strike) with the 4th (up from the bottom) finger, then the rapid dip up and down and when you get to ri do an atari with your 5th finger (thumb). That will give a little more detail. There are dynamic (volume) issues as well. Not really so simple and tedious to explain without being able to demonstrate. I think perhaps another reason you felt resistance from the crew here is because the idea that one doesn't need a self serving, capitalist shakuhachi teacher (you didn't say that) has been presented before so you walked into a already existing issue. As far as learning on your own goes, ain't a damn thing wrong with it. Enjoy! You are right in that whatever you can get your hands on is a valid method. But when people start building a case for not having a teacher  the faint scent of B.S. and avoidances starts to rise. Just trying to give you a little background on that issue on our lovely little forum. Good luck in your search for a teacher.


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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#41 2010-03-19 08:50:22

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3222
Website

Re: Re: Understood Honkyoku Custom

When you are taking a lesson you play together with the teacher. The notes you make and the teacher makes are either in unison or they're beating against each other hideously or slightly. When you nail it, the notes you play and the ones the teacher play blend into each other in such a way that they disappear into each other. It's a beautiful thing. That's also when you and the teacher know that you "get it" for that particular piece and the pitches, vibrato, etc. that are required for it. It's not only that the teacher can see what you're doing wrong and correct you, as people have mentioned. It's also the Pavlovian element of hearing that you are off and adjusting to the teacher's pitch and phrasing. Nothing need be said. You can't have that experience on your own, on Skype, by watching youtube, reading a book, reading a post here on the forum, playing with a sequencer or any other way. This is why face to face lessons are the essence of the learning process and the rest are supplemental. Expecting the supplemental sources to replace the essential source of information is like taking vitamins without eating actual food.


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#42 2010-03-19 09:16:18

purehappiness
Member
From: Connecticut USA
Registered: 2009-01-13
Posts: 528

Re: Re: Understood Honkyoku Custom

Boy, that was beautiful.

Edit: I wish I could do more than just skype. sad

Last edited by purehappiness (2010-03-19 10:48:10)


I was not conscious whether I was riding on the wind or the wind was riding on me.

Lieh-tzu

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#43 2010-03-19 10:51:26

Jim Thompson
Moderator
From: Santa Monica, California
Registered: 2007-11-28
Posts: 421

Re: Re: Understood Honkyoku Custom

Tairaku wrote:

When you are taking a lesson you play together with the teacher. The notes you make and the teacher makes are either in unison or they're beating against each other hideously or slightly. When you nail it, the notes you play and the ones the teacher play blend into each other in such a way that they disappear into each other. It's a beautiful thing. That's also when you and the teacher know that you "get it" for that particular piece and the pitches, vibrato, etc. that are required for it. It's not only that the teacher can see what you're doing wrong and correct you, as people have mentioned. It's also the Pavlovian element of hearing that you are off and adjusting to the teacher's pitch and phrasing. Nothing need be said. You can't have that experience on your own, on Skype, by watching youtube, reading a book, reading a post here on the forum, playing with a sequencer or any other way. This is why face to face lessons are the essence of the learning process and the rest are supplemental. Expecting the supplemental sources to replace the essential source of information is like taking vitamins without eating actual food.

Great post, Brian! It not only captures the essence of a teaching situation but also the essence of how ensemble musicians play together.


" Who do you trust , me or your own eyes?" - Groucho Marx

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#44 2010-03-19 11:38:24

purehappiness
Member
From: Connecticut USA
Registered: 2009-01-13
Posts: 528

Re: Re: Understood Honkyoku Custom

If that doesn't make anyone want to find a teacher nothing will.


I was not conscious whether I was riding on the wind or the wind was riding on me.

Lieh-tzu

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#45 2010-03-19 12:39:54

geni
Performer & Teacher
From: Boston MA
Registered: 2005-12-21
Posts: 830
Website

Re: Re: Understood Honkyoku Custom

2 shakuhachi playing in tune..thats a serious challenge.

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#46 2010-03-19 13:20:55

purehappiness
Member
From: Connecticut USA
Registered: 2009-01-13
Posts: 528

Re: Re: Understood Honkyoku Custom

but when it happens ...........


I was not conscious whether I was riding on the wind or the wind was riding on me.

Lieh-tzu

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#47 2010-03-19 16:12:41

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3222
Website

Re: Re: Understood Honkyoku Custom

geni wrote:

2 shakuhachi playing in tune..thats a serious challenge.

For some people! wink

Do you play your silver flute in tune? What's the difference between that and the shakuhachi?


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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#48 2010-03-19 17:07:08

Mike Raftery
Member
From: San Francisco
Registered: 2008-10-25
Posts: 44

Re: Re: Understood Honkyoku Custom

Just want to thank everyone for their sincere replies, will be off line awhile.    From the those that directly addressed the question, I feel I grasped something essential about playing honkyoku that I wasn't aware of over 2 weeks ago when the question was initially asked. No doubt about it, I'm a wiser student of the shakuhachthane my path lies straight ahead.

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#49 2010-03-19 20:07:52

radi0gnome
Member
From: Kingston NY
Registered: 2006-12-29
Posts: 1030
Website

Re: Re: Understood Honkyoku Custom

Tairaku wrote:

Do you play your silver flute in tune? What's the difference between that and the shakuhachi?

The difference is the shakuhachi is a poor, primitive design and difficult to play in tune. It sounds cool though if you can.

BTW, don't you get the sound merging and disappearing when playing along with recordings too? Not as special as when it happens with a teacher most likely, but you can still experience the phenomenon.


"Now birds record new harmonie, And trees do whistle melodies;
Now everything that nature breeds, Doth clad itself in pleasant weeds."
~ Thomas Watson - England's Helicon ca 1580

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#50 2010-03-19 22:12:30

Tairaku 太楽
Administrator/Performer
From: Tasmania
Registered: 2005-10-07
Posts: 3222
Website

Re: Re: Understood Honkyoku Custom

radi0gnome wrote:

Tairaku wrote:

Do you play your silver flute in tune? What's the difference between that and the shakuhachi?

The difference is the shakuhachi is a poor, primitive design and difficult to play in tune. It sounds cool though if you can.

BTW, don't you get the sound merging and disappearing when playing along with recordings too? Not as special as when it happens with a teacher most likely, but you can still experience the phenomenon.

I would probably play a silver flute more out of tune than the shakuhachi. I think a lot of the tuning comes from diaphragm support.

No, recordings are not the same because it's not the same means of production creating the same sound in the same space. I am talking about the actual acoustic interaction of the notes........although no doubt Toby will have some way of explaining how that is an illusion! wink


'Progress means simplifying, not complicating' : Bruno Munari

http://www.myspace.com/tairakubrianritchie

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